highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
What possible benefit could be derived from altering pathogens to make them more dangerous? I realise that such activities for the purpose of biological warfare happened in the past. One would think we might have learned better. It just seems that we're playing with fire when we do that.
I'm sure someone would say that it's a good way to develop a vaccine for something, in case it might be weaponized by some rogue country with money, but I have heard that they alter it, to prevent spreading in the event that it accidentally gets out. The problem is that it's controlled by people and people have a long history of not being careful when they think it's OK to omit safety steps, if they have a date, if they're hungry, tired, going for a nooner, etc. Plus, some people are just stupid. I can't fathom thinking that it would be OK to send anything like this to China, who has one goal- 'come out on top and screw everyone else'. Then, they were PAID to do this.
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Sure it would. But I can see them toying with the idea, to put in their range of options. So far there has been no credible animal link found, that I would have thought after this time would have revealed itself. As time goes by, I'm coming increasingly to the view that this virus was created in a lab, but its release not intentional.
There are two viral labs in Wuhan, and one highly suspect, in that the French who helped with it and inspected it, withdrew their certification.
We need to demand a lot more in person review of those labs, especially the suspect one.
Remember posting this?

"China has been repeatedly warned about its "wet" markets of animals and food. After this some really strong measures have to be taken against China and other Asian countries were "wet" markets are prevalent. This has been a constant worry of infectious disease specialists for a long time now."

People seemed to want to believe this, rather than the "it came from a lab" theory.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I've followed all the recent attention in the news media, about renewed interest in the idea that SARS-CoV-2 must have been caused by Chinese sloppiness, malevolence, or both. This has been discussed at great length before. Those ideas were dismissed, not because they could be positively ruled out, but because we have zero evidence for or against them. To be clear, China made certain that no evidence got out to the rest of the world about their initial experiences with the virus. And yes, China is a rogue nation, intent on furthering it's goals by an arms race, including nuclear weapons, and god knows what else.

I've read over the various arguments about why we should focus on China's role in the pandemic, but I don't see anything convincing, or even highly suspicious. I only see rehashed speculation, much of it irrelavent, some of it irresponsible.

I don't understand why there is renewed attention on this subject. No new evidence has appeared, and it is highly unlikely to be found. The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me is that this old story has been stirred up because there is little else to talk about. Some of the news media clearly miss the days when The Orange Peril could provide daily outrages to write about. I wonder if the recent news attention about UFOs has happened for similar reasons.

Knowing who might be blamed for the pandemic has nothing to do with how we must deal with it, or with future pandemics. We must vaccinate our nation's people – the sooner the better. All this diversion in the press, avoids that really important topic. Quit looking for foreigners to blame. Instead, roll up your sleeve and get the vaccine shot.
What possible benefit could be derived from altering pathogens to make them more dangerous? I realise that such activities for the purpose of biological warfare happened in the past. One would think we might have learned better. It just seems that we're playing with fire when we do that.
GO-NAD, you probably already know this, but some brief history of 20th century experimentation with biological warfare should be said: During WW2, Japan conducted large scale experiments with various virus, bacteria, and poison gases. They produced large amounts of these agents, and tested them on POWs (Manchurian, Chinese, British, and American). These agents were quite lethal. But the Japanese concluded that these agents could not be used as weapons as there was no reliable way to control their spread in the field.

After the war, when the US occupied Japan, we were more interested in obtaining their biological warfare data than we were interested in prosecuting and punishing Japanese war criminals. So was the Soviet Union. After the war, both nations, as well as the UK, developed their own chemical & biological warfare research groups to continue with what they learned from Japan. Of course, it was kept top secret, and was always explained away as a 'defense' against chemical & biological warfare agents developed by a potential enemy. I don't doubt that the Chinese also do this. But I don't believe they're fools. They also know damn well how difficult these agents are to control if used as weapons.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I've followed all the recent attention in the news media, about renewed interest in the idea that SARS-CoV-2 must have been caused by Chinese sloppiness, malevolence, or both. This has been discussed at great length before. Those ideas were dismissed, not because they could be positively ruled out, but because we have zero evidence for or against them. To be clear, China made certain that no evidence got out to the rest of the world about their initial experiences with the virus. And yes, China is a rogue nation, intent on furthering it's goals by an arms race, including nuclear weapons, and god knows what else.

I've read over the various arguments about why we should focus on China's role in the pandemic, but I don't see anything convincing, or even highly suspicious. I only see rehashed speculation, much of it irrelavent, some of it irresponsible.

I don't understand why there is renewed attention on this subject. No new evidence has appeared, and it is highly unlikely to be found. The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me is that this old story has been stirred up because there is little else to talk about. Some of the news media clearly miss the days when The Orange Peril could provide daily outrages to write about. I wonder if the recent news attention about UFOs has happened for similar reasons.

Knowing who might be blamed for the pandemic has nothing to do with how we must deal with it, or with future pandemics. We must vaccinate our nation's people – the sooner the better. All this diversion in the press, avoids that really important topic. Quit looking for foreigners to blame. Instead, roll up your sleeve and get the vaccine shot.
GO-NAD, you probably already know this, but some brief history of 20th century experimentation with biological warfare should be said: During WW2, Japan conducted large scale experiments with various virus, bacteria, and poison gases. They produced large amounts of these agents, and tested them on POWs (Manchurian, Chinese, British, and American). These agents were quite lethal. But the Japanese concluded that these agents could not be used as weapons as there was no reliable way to control their spread in the field.

After the war, when the US occupied Japan, we were more interested in obtaining their biological warfare data than we were interested in prosecuting and punishing Japanese war criminals. So was the Soviet Union. After the war, both nations, as well as the UK, developed their own chemical & biological warfare research groups to continue with what they learned from Japan. Of course, it was kept top secret, and was always explained away as a 'defense' against chemical & biological warfare agents developed by a potential enemy. I don't doubt that the Chinese also do this. But I don't believe they're fools. They also know damn well how difficult these agents are to control if used as weapons.
President Biden, has today ordered an Intel investigation into the origins of Covid-19. I certainly agree with this move.

By the way Porton Down, the UK biological and chemical warfare unit was established in WW I. So it over a hundred years old.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
President Biden, has today ordered an Intel investigation into the origins of Covid-19. I certainly agree with this move.
There are only old reports from 2019. Unless there are big surprises, there is no new info about the outbreak. Chinese officials have already scoured involved scenes – if any – destroying any possibly remaining evidence.

Most of those old reports come with low or low-to-medium confidence as judged by the intelligence community. Apparently there has been some disagreement among intelligence officials. Biden ordered a review of the facts, and a concerted effort at arriving at a single unified assessment in 90 days. I don't expect to see much come of this. This is all about intelligence gathering using undisclosed human and electronic intelligence sources. It has little or nothing to do with science, and even less with politics.
By the way Porton Down, the UK biological and chemical warfare unit was established in WW I. So it over a hundred years old.
The first German use of chlorine gas was early in 1915. They were soon using phosgene and mustard gas as well. All more than 100 years ago. That seems so crude compared to what everyone has now. As the old advertising phrase said, "Better living through chemistry!"
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
There are only old reports from 2019. Unless there are big surprises, there is no new info on the outbreak. Chinese officials have already scoured and destroyed any remaining evidence.

Most of those old reports come with low or low-to-medium confidence as judged by the intelligence community. Apparently there has been some disagreement among intelligence officials. Biden ordered a review of the facts, and a concerted effort at arriving at a single unified assessment in 90 days. I don't expect to see much come of this. This is all about intelligence gathering using undisclosed sources. It has little or nothing to do with science, and less with politics.
The first German use of chlorine gas was early in 1915. They were soon using phosgene and mustard gas as well. All more than 100 years ago. That seems so crude compared to what everyone has now. As the old advertising phrase said, "Better living through chemistry!"
Yep. Biden is doing this to appease people, but he knows nothing will come of it. With China, we'll never get the truth. It's simply been too long.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
With China, we'll never get the truth. It's simply been too long.
The only way to know full details about an emerging new pathogenic virus is to stage our own here in the USA :rolleyes:. Those Chinese and Africans have screwed up too many times – put Rand Paul and Tom Cotton in charge :oops:.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Some people I know won't vaccinate. They don't seem to know about the things I know (from this thread) that put me at ease with the vaccine but beyond that, they don't care. It's not an information problem. I don't know, I remember when I believed everything I read too. I was young and I had sh!t for brains. But I don't think a lot of the folks, still citing blood clots and undetermined potential future risk of the vaccine, will ever figure out that they themselves aren't intellectually equipped to be experts on freakin' everything. And I do mean everything. It's annoying and I think those people should be publicly beaten.
 
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GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I've followed all the recent attention in the news media, about renewed interest in the idea that SARS-CoV-2 must have been caused by Chinese sloppiness, malevolence, or both. This has been discussed at great length before. Those ideas were dismissed, not because they could be positively ruled out, but because we have zero evidence for or against them. To be clear, China made certain that no evidence got out to the rest of the world about their initial experiences with the virus. And yes, China is a rogue nation, intent on furthering it's goals by an arms race, including nuclear weapons, and god knows what else.

I've read over the various arguments about why we should focus on China's role in the pandemic, but I don't see anything convincing, or even highly suspicious. I only see rehashed speculation, much of it irrelavent, some of it irresponsible.

I don't understand why there is renewed attention on this subject. No new evidence has appeared, and it is highly unlikely to be found. The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me is that this old story has been stirred up because there is little else to talk about. Some of the news media clearly miss the days when The Orange Peril could provide daily outrages to write about. I wonder if the recent news attention about UFOs has happened for similar reasons.

Knowing who might be blamed for the pandemic has nothing to do with how we must deal with it, or with future pandemics. We must vaccinate our nation's people – the sooner the better. All this diversion in the press, avoids that really important topic. Quit looking for foreigners to blame. Instead, roll up your sleeve and get the vaccine shot.
GO-NAD, you probably already know this, but some brief history of 20th century experimentation with biological warfare should be said: During WW2, Japan conducted large scale experiments with various virus, bacteria, and poison gases. They produced large amounts of these agents, and tested them on POWs (Manchurian, Chinese, British, and American). These agents were quite lethal. But the Japanese concluded that these agents could not be used as weapons as there was no reliable way to control their spread in the field.

After the war, when the US occupied Japan, we were more interested in obtaining their biological warfare data than we were interested in prosecuting and punishing Japanese war criminals. So was the Soviet Union. After the war, both nations, as well as the UK, developed their own chemical & biological warfare research groups to continue with what they learned from Japan. Of course, it was kept top secret, and was always explained away as a 'defense' against chemical & biological warfare agents developed by a potential enemy. I don't doubt that the Chinese also do this. But I don't believe they're fools. They also know damn well how difficult these agents are to control if used as weapons.
Yeah, I had a general understanding of what the Axis countries were developing before and during the war, and that the Allies scooped up whatever they could access. But, when it comes to biological weapons, I would have thought that over the decades it would dawn on everyone that these things are essentially uncontrollable once they are released. A regime would have to be possessed by an apocalyptic outlook to actively develop such agents for weapons purposes.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I'm sure someone would say that it's a good way to develop a vaccine for something, in case it might be weaponized by some rogue country with money, but I have heard that they alter it, to prevent spreading in the event that it accidentally gets out. The problem is that it's controlled by people and people have a long history of not being careful when they think it's OK to omit safety steps, if they have a date, if they're hungry, tired, going for a nooner, etc. Plus, some people are just stupid. I can't fathom thinking that it would be OK to send anything like this to China, who has one goal- 'come out on top and screw everyone else'. Then, they were PAID to do this.
I don't doubt that some might say that. However, it's well known that developing vaccines against known infectious diseases is incredibly expensive. I can't imagine developing/altering pathogens for the purposes of developing vaccines against them. As you suggest, people are unreliable. And, as far as I know, Murphy's Law has not been rescinded.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
The only way to know full details about an emerging new pathogenic virus is to stage our own here in the USA :rolleyes:. Those Chinese and Africans have screwed up too many times – put Rand Paul and Tom Cotton in charge :oops:.
I noticed this the other day:

>>>Cotton, who has focused on the lab leak theory, last year said the bioweapon possibility merited investigation, though his office reached out to What Matters on Wednesday to say the senator believes it is “a fairly unlikely hypothesis that nonetheless needed to be investigated along with all other possible options.”<<<

 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I've followed all the recent attention in the news media, about renewed interest in the idea that SARS-CoV-2 must have been caused by Chinese sloppiness, malevolence, or both. This has been discussed at great length before. Those ideas were dismissed, not because they could be positively ruled out, but because we have zero evidence for or against them. To be clear, China made certain that no evidence got out to the rest of the world about their initial experiences with the virus. And yes, China is a rogue nation, intent on furthering it's goals by an arms race, including nuclear weapons, and god knows what else.

I've read over the various arguments about why we should focus on China's role in the pandemic, but I don't see anything convincing, or even highly suspicious. I only see rehashed speculation, much of it irrelavent, some of it irresponsible.

I don't understand why there is renewed attention on this subject. No new evidence has appeared, and it is highly unlikely to be found. The only explanation that makes any sense at all to me is that this old story has been stirred up because there is little else to talk about. Some of the news media clearly miss the days when The Orange Peril could provide daily outrages to write about. I wonder if the recent news attention about UFOs has happened for similar reasons.

Knowing who might be blamed for the pandemic has nothing to do with how we must deal with it, or with future pandemics. We must vaccinate our nation's people – the sooner the better. All this diversion in the press, avoids that really important topic. Quit looking for foreigners to blame. Instead, roll up your sleeve and get the vaccine shot.
GO-NAD, you probably already know this, but some brief history of 20th century experimentation with biological warfare should be said: During WW2, Japan conducted large scale experiments with various virus, bacteria, and poison gases. They produced large amounts of these agents, and tested them on POWs (Manchurian, Chinese, British, and American). These agents were quite lethal. But the Japanese concluded that these agents could not be used as weapons as there was no reliable way to control their spread in the field.

After the war, when the US occupied Japan, we were more interested in obtaining their biological warfare data than we were interested in prosecuting and punishing Japanese war criminals. So was the Soviet Union. After the war, both nations, as well as the UK, developed their own chemical & biological warfare research groups to continue with what they learned from Japan. Of course, it was kept top secret, and was always explained away as a 'defense' against chemical & biological warfare agents developed by a potential enemy. I don't doubt that the Chinese also do this. But I don't believe they're fools. They also know damn well how difficult these agents are to control if used as weapons.
It should be done to find ways to prevent it, not to blame a foreign country. If it turns out that it WAS a foreign country, so be it. If it turns out that they did it 'accidentally, on purpose', they need to be broken, regardless of which country is at fault.

Lying about it at the outset makes them a suspect and since we have had at least four mutations just in the first 13 months, even they may have underestimated its dangers. This has screwed the whole planet's population, economy and it has shown that many countries have put their eggs in one manufacturing basket, to their own peril. That needs to stop.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't doubt that some might say that. However, it's well known that developing vaccines against known infectious diseases is incredibly expensive. I can't imagine developing/altering pathogens for the purposes of developing vaccines against them. As you suggest, people are unreliable. And, as far as I know, Murphy's Law has not been rescinded.
O'Toole's Corollary to Murphy's Law- "Murphy was an optimist".
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Some people I know won't vaccinate. They don't seem to know about the things I know (from this thread) that put me at ease with the vaccine but beyond that, they don't care. It's not an information problem. I don't know, I remember when I believed everything I read too. I was young and I had sh!t for brains. But I don't think a lot of the folks, still citing blood clots and undetermined potential future risk of the vaccine, will ever figure out that they themselves aren't intellectually equipped to be experts on freakin' everything. And I do mean everything. It's annoying and I think those people should be publicly beaten.
Instead of public beatings, I'd settle for public vaccinations.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Some people I know won't vaccinate. They don't seem to know about the things I know (from this thread) that put me at ease with the vaccine but beyond that, they don't care. It's not an information problem. I don't know, I remember when I believed everything I read too. I was young and I had sh!t for brains. But I don't think a lot of the folks, still citing blood clots and undetermined potential future risk of the vaccine, will ever figure out that they themselves aren't intellectually equipped to be experts on freakin' everything. And I do mean everything. It's annoying and I think those people should be publicly beaten.
On a more serious note, getting more people vaccinated may have little to do with an information problem. It may come down to the right kind of incentive.

CNN reports that interest in vaccinations increased after the CDC announced it's new guidance on masks on May 13.

"On the afternoon of May 13, just after Walensky's announcement, the number of visits to the site [vaccines.gov where people can look up vaccination sites by zip code] started to climb, hitting its second highest number of visitors since the website was launched on April 30."

"This shows incentives matter," said Dr. Jonathan Reiner, professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University School of Medicine. "People needed a carrot, and the carrot was the ability to drop the mask in most settings."

We'll have to wait and see if the report of increased interest in finding where vaccinations are available translates into increased vaccinations.
 
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