Can Audiophiles Embrace Science Over Religion For The Hobby To Have a Future?

highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How did this thread go from digital and vinyl to sniper school..?
That's the beauty of the intergoogles- lots of 'randomness', 'chaos', 'going off the rails'- call it what you want.

A local college radio station refers to www as 'World Wide Wait' and the internet as 'the information super driveway'.
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
Hey, Boomer. I believe you’re fabricating a crisis. Almost every young person I know has Spotify. 99% of them are on a streaming service of some sort, to include the free ones. Each one has an audio device, whether it be their cellphone and some wired cans, wireless headphone, speaker, smart speaker, Sonos etc.

If anything, the youth dont care about fancy cables, and very few of them care about expensive gear. Just check Amazon.com, the market is full of quality affordable gear.

Quit making chit up. There is no problem. If anything, expensive gear is a tough sell on the youth. Ive seen many a Rok-it or a Sonos device or some powered speaker for their computers with them. They dont need your preaching.

The only poison I see here is from you against vinyl, and most anything else you dont agree with. 2 channel audio has gone the way of after market car stereos, handheld GPS devices, DSLR's etc. There are so many devices doing the same things, at a quality that is more than just acceptable, that almost no one has use for blingy car stereos. When was the last time you bought a Garmin? Nobody needs one unless youre looking at sailing or extreme adventure. Unless youre into photography deeply, the cellphone camera is plenty. The same goes for music listening. PC's and cellphones are the number one music players in high school and college. Trash vinyl as you may, it is probably one of the main gateway drugs for young people to discover purpose made music listening audio equipment. Sure, kill that too.

Sorry brah, youre out of touch. If you wanna hate on something thats caused harm to audio, hate on Beats. That company ate billions of dollars headed for audio and burned it on Monster Cables second worst invention, the Beats sound.
There is a lot of truth here.

Let's look at the other side of the equation, new content in the form of new music. It's just anecdotal of course but I'm seeing more and more varied kinds of new music these days that any time in the past 20 years. The barrier to entry is extremely low and while some of the stuff on soundcloud is just hobbyiest junk, there are also a lot more avenues for self produced, low budget, or fringe or experimental stuff to find an audience. Heck, youtube continues to create stars and offer a path to the masses. Its not all "hi fi" (you tube in particular) but eventually a love of music turns into a modest, slow desire for it to sound good.....and that bodes well.

In other words, people still love music and there is more of it being produced and shared today than ever before, and that tends to drive a subset of people to seek out ways for the music to sound better....and while some people end up misguided, truly useful tech and products at the right price seem to thrive.

As you note, there are innovative, low complexity ways to get great sound -- but these look to audiophiles of my generation (gen X but we were duped by the Boomers on a lot of things) as compromised hi fi......but if I try to be honest, a pair of SONOS1 speakers playing Spotify in stereo sounds better than the Service Merchandise hifi systems (components!) from Technics that many of us lusted after around 1985.....and costs less, in inflation adjusted dollars.....and offers a far bigger library for a lower annual price that what we used to spend at Tower Records.

---

But I will take exception to the Beats critique in one sense: yes, Beats for ages sounded like crap if one sought a neutral headphone. But they also didn't cannibalize conventional headphone sales. Rather, they increased the size of the market and conventional brands kept pretty steady sales figures.... and the end result was a nice two-fer where lots of people discovered headphone listening and the idea of paying a premium for something better than the cheap stuff, and now the Beats sound has been tempered a whole bunch and is far more neutral.

So while I would agree that Beats were an insult to music lovers in lots of ways, the impact of Beats was overall pretty positive. It made the idea of spending more to get more palatable to lots of folks.

--

And I am very heartened that folks seem to be embracing science and measurement more. It's not the be all and end all way to get good sound, but it is a HUGE leap forward versus what passed for critical selection criteria and evaluation 50 years ago.

The irony is that lots of the science is driven by Boomers -- that other Boomers poo-poo-ed for decades, but that is finally finding more receptive (open minded, scientifically literate) audiences.
 
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S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
What about the shooter's elevation WRT the target? That, temperature, wind, distance, projectile speed- those are the variables I was thinking about.
Yeah, temperature has effect on external ballistics. Here's a summary of it all:
The primary factors which effect trajectory are: gravity, drag, temperature, and wind. Of these, wind has the greatest effect. The amount of effect depends on the time the bullet is exposed to wind, the direction the wind is blowing, and the velocity of the wind. The shooter must compensate for the effects of wind by sight adjustment or hold off, aiming at a different spot other than center of mass.



Appraising wind velocity and direction at mid-range (half to 2/3rds target distance) is a technique known by experienced shooters to get good results. These knowledgeable shooters understand that reading the wind at mid-range gives an accurate average wind condition from the shooter’s firing point all the way out to the target.



One way to determine wind velocity and direction is by its effects on the environment. These effects should be memorized.



  • 0-3 mph - hardly felt, but smoke drifts
  • 3-5 mph - lightly felt on face
  • 5-8 mph - keeps leaves in constant movement
  • 8-12 mph - raises dust and loose paper
  • 12-15 mph - causes small trees to sway


Observation of mirage is another method of estimating wind direction and speed. Mirage is the reflection of light through layers of air that have a different temperature than the ground. These layers are blown by the wind and can be monitored by viewing through a spotting scope. To observe mirage at mid-range, focus the spotting scope on the target then turn the focus knob ¼ turn counter clock-wise. The target will be a little fuzzy but the mirage should be clear.






The clock system is used to estimate the value of the wind. Once the direction is determined, the value is assigned to the wind’s velocity.



  • Full value is a wind that is blowing perpendicular to the direction that the bullet is traveling. In the clock method, this would be a wind that is blowing from the 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock position.
  • Half value is a wind that is blowing from a quartering direction. It only has half the effect on bullet impact. In the clock method, this wind can best be illustrated as a wind that is blowing out of the 1, 5, 7, and 11 o’clock directions.
  • No value is a wind that is blowing in the direction of the bullet’s path. The wind comes directly from the front or rear of the shooter. This wind has no effect on the deflection of the bullet. In the clock method, the wind would be blowing from either the 12 or 6 o’clock direction.


After wind has been appraised for value, for example, a 10-mph wind from a quartering direction would be said to have a 5-mph value, a simple formula will allow the shooter to adjust for the distance that the wind displaces the bullet:

Distance to Target in Yards / 100 X Wind Value in MPH / Constant of 7 = Bullet Drift in MOA[A1]

For Example:

600 Yards / 100 X 5 MPH / 7 = 4 MOA Bullet Drift

To get the drift in inches the shooter will take the distance to target in yards / 100 X Bullet Drift in MOA. Shooting at 600 yards, with wind appraised as having a 5-mph value, the formula would look like this:

600 Yards / 100 X 4 MOA = 24 Inches of Drift



In addition to wind, temperature influences the elevation setting required to hit the center of the target.



  • A 20-degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature increases the muzzle velocity approximately 50 feet per second.
  • A 20-degree Fahrenheit decrease in temperature decreases the muzzle velocity approximately 50 feet per second.
  • One minute of adjustment is necessary for every 20-degree temperature change.
  • A drop-in temperature requires the shooter to raise elevation.
  • An increase in temperature requires the shooter to lower elevation.
[A1]
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, temperature has effect on external ballistics. Here's a summary of it all:
The primary factors which effect trajectory are: gravity, drag, temperature, and wind. Of these, wind has the greatest effect. The amount of effect depends on the time the bullet is exposed to wind, the direction the wind is blowing, and the velocity of the wind. The shooter must compensate for the effects of wind by sight adjustment or hold off, aiming at a different spot other than center of mass.



Appraising wind velocity and direction at mid-range (half to 2/3rds target distance) is a technique known by experienced shooters to get good results. These knowledgeable shooters understand that reading the wind at mid-range gives an accurate average wind condition from the shooter’s firing point all the way out to the target.



One way to determine wind velocity and direction is by its effects on the environment. These effects should be memorized.



  • 0-3 mph - hardly felt, but smoke drifts
  • 3-5 mph - lightly felt on face
  • 5-8 mph - keeps leaves in constant movement
  • 8-12 mph - raises dust and loose paper
  • 12-15 mph - causes small trees to sway


Observation of mirage is another method of estimating wind direction and speed. Mirage is the reflection of light through layers of air that have a different temperature than the ground. These layers are blown by the wind and can be monitored by viewing through a spotting scope. To observe mirage at mid-range, focus the spotting scope on the target then turn the focus knob ¼ turn counter clock-wise. The target will be a little fuzzy but the mirage should be clear.






The clock system is used to estimate the value of the wind. Once the direction is determined, the value is assigned to the wind’s velocity.



  • Full value is a wind that is blowing perpendicular to the direction that the bullet is traveling. In the clock method, this would be a wind that is blowing from the 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock position.
  • Half value is a wind that is blowing from a quartering direction. It only has half the effect on bullet impact. In the clock method, this wind can best be illustrated as a wind that is blowing out of the 1, 5, 7, and 11 o’clock directions.
  • No value is a wind that is blowing in the direction of the bullet’s path. The wind comes directly from the front or rear of the shooter. This wind has no effect on the deflection of the bullet. In the clock method, the wind would be blowing from either the 12 or 6 o’clock direction.


After wind has been appraised for value, for example, a 10-mph wind from a quartering direction would be said to have a 5-mph value, a simple formula will allow the shooter to adjust for the distance that the wind displaces the bullet:

Distance to Target in Yards / 100 X Wind Value in MPH / Constant of 7 = Bullet Drift in MOA[A1]

For Example:

600 Yards / 100 X 5 MPH / 7 = 4 MOA Bullet Drift

To get the drift in inches the shooter will take the distance to target in yards / 100 X Bullet Drift in MOA. Shooting at 600 yards, with wind appraised as having a 5-mph value, the formula would look like this:

600 Yards / 100 X 4 MOA = 24 Inches of Drift



In addition to wind, temperature influences the elevation setting required to hit the center of the target.



  • A 20-degree Fahrenheit increase in temperature increases the muzzle velocity approximately 50 feet per second.
  • A 20-degree Fahrenheit decrease in temperature decreases the muzzle velocity approximately 50 feet per second.
  • One minute of adjustment is necessary for every 20-degree temperature change.
  • A drop-in temperature requires the shooter to raise elevation.
  • An increase in temperature requires the shooter to lower elevation.

[A1]
That looks like my thought process when I golf. :)

Temperature is one of the big details and with wind, that varies between shooter and target, too. Air density, humidity,......and some people seem to be able to hit anything by pointing and shooting. Then, there's the Coriolis effect and shooting in line with or opposed to/across the Earth's rotation.
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
What about the shooter's elevation WRT the target? That, temperature, wind, distance, projectile speed- those are the variables I was thinking about.
Distance can be approximated visually using the scope reticle, if the size of the target is known. a laser rangefinder can also be used. I have a kestrel wind gauge with a ballistic computer. It will gather temp, angle to target, spin of the earth and factor in projectile speed based on known data (doppler capture or Litz database). I also have a backup ballistic computer app on my phone.

after some practice, and also based on data on previous engagements (dope), the shooter is able to make calls even without all the equipment. something the measurement people might find surprising, the most difficult shots still require a lot of subjective input.
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
And I am very heartened that folks seem to be embracing science and measurement more. It's not the be all and end all way to get good sound, but it is a HUGE leap forward versus what passed for critical selection criteria and evaluation 50 years ago.

The irony is that lots of the science is driven by Boomers -- that other Boomers poo-poo-ed for decades, but that is finally finding more receptive (open minded, scientifically literate) audiences.
uhm, its 2021. the world has never been as educated or as science based as ever before.

what is new, from the last 10 years, is the ever increasing frequency of people diminishing the position of others by stating that science is on their side. Hogwash.

Scientific method 101 - Observation. Observation is subjective. Testing is objective. Testing a singular variable in a system in laboratory conditions does not make for an accurate test. The relationship between all the variables is not captured. The reason for the observed phenomena can be missed. Specially the inter relationship of all the variables.

Testing a piece of wire to prove or disprove its effects in a complex system is lazy science. There is published scholarly articles out there, one with statements from Floyd Toole himself saying some cables do make a difference. Mr. Toole opined that the difference has to be overlooked (speaking as a speaker manufacturer) given the infinite combinations that could be present. It just doesnt make any sense for a speaker designer to do anything about it.

As a user, given time and opportunity, its something to experiment with, within reason. It doesnt make much of a difference, but to some, it matters. Im good with basic well made cables. Im not good with zealots.
 
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bladerunner6

Audioholic
Comments have been made about CD’s.

If I may elaborate on my interest in them:

Absolutely equivalent not better sound is available in other ways but that is not why I like CD’s.

I like them for cover art and liner notes which have nothing to do with sound quality and I would not direct anyone to them for audio quality. For example, my best of Bob Seger has some nice photos, wonderful commentary on how and why the songs were written and the lyrics. I also like them because buying a CD, especially used ones are often more affordable then a digital download.

The author has absolutely right that we should not be directing people with potential interest in audio to CD’s.

I am just saying my interest in them comes from a rational, informed viewpoint that while in a minority is valid.
 
nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
uhm, its 2021. the world has never been as educated or as science based as ever before.

what is new, from the last 10 years, is the ever increasing frequency of people diminishing the position of others by stating that science is on their side. Hogwash.

Scientific method 101 - Observation. Observation is subjective. Testing is objective. Testing a singular variable in a system in laboratory conditions does not make for an accurate test. The relationship between all the variables is not captured. The reason for the observed phenomena can be missed. Specially the inter relationship of all the variables.

Testing a piece of wire to prove or disprove its effects in a complex system is lazy science. There is published scholarly articles out there, one with statements from Floyd Toole himself saying some cables do make a difference. Mr. Toole opined that the difference has to be overlooked (speaking as a speaker manufacturer) given the infinite combinations that could be present. It just doesnt make any sense for a speaker designer to do anything about it.

As a user, given time and opportunity, its something to experiment with, within reason. It doesnt make much of a difference, but to some, it matters. Im good with basic well made cables. Im not good with zealots.
Luckily Toole and a few dozen other researchers did well controlled scientific tests of subjective preferences where they tested all the variables in play by using complete systems and by starting with listening tests in multiple rooms with all kinds of listeners with many different kinds of gear driving the systems, with everything from 1.0 to 5.4 systems, using speakers that cost from 100 bucks to 30,000 dollars……to get a holistic impression from a sufficient sample of gear and systems and rooms and people.

After gathering that data he then started testing individual variables to find which drove the results.

He didn’t do this alone and testing going back to the 1970s has been pointing at the same conclusions but he is famous for pulling it all together, drawing reasonable conclusions about causality, and then driving research to test those conclusions.

There are still outlier cases and probably always will be but the preponderance of data has finally gained some recognition outside academic circles and regular people have only started to take it seriously since the third edition of his book if my exposure to online audio discussions culture since the 90s is reflective of serious listeners in general.

The science cannot predict what you will like. But it can solidly predict what nine out of ten people will like in double blind testing.

And the fact that educated consumers of younger generations are paying attention to data in ways that many of us didn’t when we were their age gives me hope they will gravitate to quality and realize there is good value in some of the kit that is available while avoiding the snake oil that plagued many of us.
 
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Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
uhm, its 2021. the world has never been as educated or as science based as ever before.

what is new, from the last 10 years, is the ever increasing frequency of people diminishing the position of others by stating that science is on their side. Hogwash.

Scientific method 101 - Observation. Observation is subjective. Testing is objective. Testing a singular variable in a system in laboratory conditions does not make for an accurate test. The relationship between all the variables is not captured. The reason for the observed phenomena can be missed. Specially the inter relationship of all the variables.

Testing a piece of wire to prove or disprove its effects in a complex system is lazy science. There is published scholarly articles out there, one with statements from Floyd Toole himself saying some cables do make a difference. Mr. Toole opined that the difference has to be overlooked (speaking as a speaker manufacturer) given the infinite combinations that could be present. It just doesnt make any sense for a speaker designer to do anything about it.

As a user, given time and opportunity, its something to experiment with, within reason. It doesnt make much of a difference, but to some, it matters. Im good with basic well made cables. Im not good with zealots.
I have no idea what the point is of your post. It sounds like an indirect version of audiophile BS about measurements not being valid. The relationships between all of the variables… seriously?

Measuring cables is not lazy science. Measuring cables fully characterizes cables. You seem to be implying that there are audible differences between well-designed cables used appropriately. I hope I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

What are you saying?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
As a user, given time and opportunity, its something to experiment with, within reason.
The problem is most users use flawed methodology when experimenting and come to inaccurate conclusions. It's interesting how all those subjective differences from one cable to another disappear when sighted bias is elminated.
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
And the fact that educated consumers of younger generations are paying attention to data in ways that many of us didn’t when we were their age gives me hope they will gravitate to quality and realize there is good value in some of the kit that is available while avoiding the snake oil that plagued many of us.
As a former PA tech, I used a lot of data, collecting them after set up, and using references to adjust. At the end of the day, in difficult situations, we made judgement calls based out of experience in setting up in hundreds of locations.

It never occurred to me not to use available data. If youre saying you bought blindly, and Ive been buying equipment since the 80's, that is not the case here.

News flash - anecdotal evidence is generally the motivation for further scientific research
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
The problem is most users use flawed methodology when experimenting and come to inaccurate conclusions. It's interesting how all those subjective differences from one cable to another disappear when sighted bias is elminated.
And that is ok. Some people get their rocks of playing mad scientist. Some guys move their couch two feet and call it a day. Its a hobby, no need to call other people poison, such as what was said here. I found a set of 5 Shunyata Diamondback powers cords on Craigslist for 30 bucks each. Theyre nice and blue and CL rated. They were cheaper than medical grade cables from Amazon and double shielded to boot. I bought them. Did I hear anything, no. But do I feel better that I have good quality power cords, yes. They look good and cheaper that a piano black finish, sue me :)

Buying the cords is the same thing with buying chicken :) I'd never pay 9.99 a pound for free range Japanese Jidoro chicken. I walked into the store and they were on sale for 1.99. I filled up the freezer in the garage :)
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
That looks like my thought process when I golf. :)

Temperature is one of the big details and with wind, that varies between shooter and target, too. Air density, humidity,......and some people seem to be able to hit anything by pointing and shooting. Then, there's the Coriolis effect and shooting in line with or opposed to/across the Earth's rotation.
For sure the greater distance from shooter to target the more knowledge and skill must be applied to get a good first round hit. Wind Counter, Range Estimation, Ballistic Drop Compensation, and Slope Compensation are most important. Interestingly enough I shoot NRA Long Range with a match conditioned AR-15 with as issued iron sights.On my best days and Princess and the Pea consistency in all manner of things I can hold under a half minute at 100 yards from prone sling supported position; but, moving to the 1000 yard line, even when wind is consistent, I have not held better than 2 MOA.on a 10 round string. It’s the wind that is the killer of great scores just a 4 MPH change in full value wind will redirect a bullet from the X-ring to about 40 inches outside the black.
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
It's also a recipe for snake oil in the right hands.
Half of the claims found at Wholefoods are snake oil. I dont get bent up on it.

I still recall the story of Dr. Barry Marshall, a doctor in the middle of nowhere (Perth, AU) who from anecdotal evidence in his own practice, discovered the causation between ulcers and a bacteria. This turned over decades of scientific knowledge and research. The world, including the scientific community laughed at him for years. A multi billion dollar industry supported by hundreds of scientists pummeled him with attacks.

Barry is the proud recipient of a Nobel prize in physiology. He was right all along.

Closed minds inhibit progress. You dont agree with something, state your case, and just let others do their work. If theyre wrong, thats on them.
 
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nathan_h

nathan_h

Audioholic
As a former PA tech, I used a lot of data, collecting them after set up, and using references to adjust. At the end of the day, in difficult situations, we made judgement calls based out of experience in setting up in hundreds of locations.

It never occurred to me not to use available data. If youre saying you bought blindly, and Ive been buying equipment since the 80's, that is not the case here.

News flash - anecdotal evidence is generally the motivation for further scientific research
I’m saying we shouldn’t proclaim the death of quality audio just because people in their twenties don’t buy the products people in the fifties think they should buy. I think twenty year olds today have access to better data than I did 30+ years ago and those that love music will sometimes be inspired to make use of that data in ways that put us old folks to shame.
 

Peguinpower

Enthusiast
I’m saying we shouldn’t proclaim the death of quality audio just because people in their twenties don’t buy the products people in the fifties think they should buy. I think twenty year olds today have access to better data than I did 30+ years ago and those that love music will sometimes be inspired to make use of that data in ways that put us old folks to shame.
I agree with that. As the father of two twenny sumthins, I disagree with their tastes. I offered my son a pair of LS50s and my old NAD integrated. He went with a Yamaha sound bar instead "coz it look sleaker". This world is doomed.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Half of the claims found at Wholefoods are snake oil. I dont get bent up on it.

I still recall the story of Dr. Barry Marshall, a doctor in the middle of nowhere (Perth, AU) who from anecdotal evidence in his own practice, discovered the causation between ulcers and a bacteria. This turned over decades of scientific knowledge and research. The world, including the scientific community laughed at him for years. A multi billion dollar industry supported by hundreds of scientists pummeled him with attacks.

Barry is the proud recipient of a Nobel prize in physiology. He was right all along.

Closed minds inhibit progress. You dont agree with something, state your case, and just let others do their work. If theyre wrong, thats on them.
I don't think the scientific discovery you describe is "anecdote". It was a hypothesis. One that was proven using science and graduated to theory. You know what was anecdotal once? Handwashing was unnecessary in the medical field. Once again, science to the rescue.

I don't have an issue with questioning and testing, and I'm open to being proved wrong. I also don't just accept assertions until they can be demonstrated or falsifiable. The good Dr's hypothesis may have been ridiculed, but what methodology was used to prove him right? It wasn't anecdote.
 
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