Can Audiophiles Embrace Science Over Religion For The Hobby To Have a Future?

[Big-Q]

I just don't see spending time listening to guys like Guttenberg, Darko, Grandpa Paul and some others....just better things to do I don't think they do the younger audiences much good otoh.

I listen to them and Darko is actually and advocate of getting younger people into audio. Still, we all have our opinions and I do not always agree with any of them.

 

[lovinthehd]

I listen to them and Darko is actually and advocate of getting younger people into audio. Still, we all have our opinions and I do not always agree with any of them.

For me its more about the audio nonsense they propagate. I just don't have any need for what they have to say either.

 

[ryanosaur]

Nothing against Vinyl, per se... Frankly, it's a lifestyle choice. Much like Cigars and rare Whiskey. All are more expensive than some good drugs!

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah I don't have anything against vinyl particularly. I still have mine and use it occasionally. Just the cost of entry compared to digital is kinda high for a decent setup, and the recordings cost more too (then there's the care and feeding ). I guess if it entices some who find it new and novel and non-digital that's a good thing but I'd rather see them spend more on better speakers first

 

[fubar1764]

Cool. I already did that. . .well, the parts that were in my budget. And I got Bluetooth headphones. Now what?
**looks at JL Fathom F113v1 suspiciously**

 

[Eppie]

I listen to them and Darko is actually and advocate of getting younger people into audio. Still, we all have our opinions and I do not always agree with any of them.

I was a bit leary about mentioning Darko and others as it might start another debate. It's mostly just entertainment as the reviews are more opinion than fact. Darko's videos are very slick (partly due to Jana) so they can be fun to watch, but I don't put a lot of creadence in things like differences in high end DACs or streamers. Does it hurt the hobby? More good than possible harm in this case I think. Like Big-Q mentioned he's an advocate for young audiophiles and if that gets someone interested in hi-fi it's a start that could lead them into doing some real research and learning to enjoy the hobby.

 

[lovinthehd]

I was a bit leary about mentioning Darko and others as it might start another debate. It's mostly just entertainment as the reviews are more opinion than fact. Darko's videos are very slick (partly due to Jana) so they can be fun to watch, but I don't put a lot of creadence in things like differences in high end DACs or streamers. Does it hurt the hobby? More good than possible harm in this case I think. Like Big-Q mentioned he's an advocate for young audiophiles and if that gets someone interested in hi-fi it's a start that could lead them into doing some real research and learning to enjoy the hobby.

OTOH his advocacy if based in bullshit does what favors in the long run?

 

[Eppie]

OTOH his advocacy if based in bullshit does what favors in the long run?

Have you watched many of his reviews? He uses a lot of flowery language but if he wants to sing the praises of Schiit gear I don't mind since it's good gear for the money. He also describes some of his equipment setups for streaming and has experimented with the Pi and audio hats and various streamers. There is some practical advice for young people into streaming mixed in with the questionable stuff.

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you watched many of his reviews? He uses a lot of flowery language but if he wants to sing the praises of Schiit gear I don't mind since it's good gear for the money. He also describes some of his equipment setups for streaming and has experimented with the Pi and audio hats and various streamers. There is some practical advice for young people into streaming mixed in with the questionable stuff.

Nah, from the ones I did watch I just found nothing I'd want from him. Useless comes to mind. (then again while Schit has a cute marketing campaign don't find them particularly useful)

 

[ciedema]

I'm pretty new this game (in fact this my first post here) I think this article reflects the issue I've had trying to find decent information.

So I watch a few YouTube videos and I find.
- Guys talking about putting weights on DAC's to improve audio quality.
- Guys talking about power cables. What about the 20m (~66ft) of regular cable in your walls? Or the miles of overhead cable connecting to the nearest substation?
- Special ethernet switches - what do these companies know that Cisco or Juniper don't?

I like this site because it dispels the bullshit. What noobs like me are looking are looking for are things like:
- What are good products for first comers.
- What happens if I can't do things optimally - like speaker placement? What can I do alleviate problems?


I've spent a few years doing PA mixing on very amateur basis - none of the BS exists in that space. Information on sound reinforcement is excellent and readily available. I'd love to see the equivalent of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement manual for home stereo systems.

For a noob like me it's painful and I have a bit of a clue, for someone who enjoys a listening to music and wants a better experience they'll be seriously off put by what they read on some forums.

PS I like the idea of listening to vinyl records - not for some purity, but because it's imperfections and a reminder of times past. Same for AM tube radios.

 

[Halcyon]

While I agree with much of what has been written here (and I'm a manufacturer) I can't agree with embracing things like room treatments. I'm an acoustician and an audio consultant, my name is attached to 7 of the 10 largest AV installs on planet earth and I trained under Eric Desart the creator of the quietest recording rooms on earth.

People do NOT need to embrace room treatment, most of it is utter rubbish, I've tested hundreds of products and none of them do what they claim.

People need to understand their rooms better, that is the be all and end all of good sound. But they DON'T usually need acoustic treatment in any way and they don't need to be playing with programs like REW that they do not know how to interpret properly. Room treatment is like cables and exaggerated isolation claims, it's pure headology.

If you want to to know more by all means take a look at our (very underpopulated but factually correct) posts on Halcyon-audio.com, we're British, so there is no conflict by posting a link. You might even find some of the articles useful

 

[3db]

I think junk science and snake oil are devastating to this hobby. It makes me genuinely sad when I read stuff in support of it by people who really should know better. I called out Guttenberg in the comments section of one of his videos. I don't remember exactly all of the details because it was quite a while back, but I was surprised he replied to me. I think I got under his skin.

I made a snarky comment or question something along the lines of why I should believe anything he says when he spreads misinformation all the time. He actually replied, a little butthurt, wanting to know when he ever did such a thing. I replied by linking something he'd written or said about the benefits of "better" interconnects and typed up a paragraph telling him it pisses me off that someone in his influential position promotes crap like that. I pressed him about demonstrating the science behind it too. He never replied after that.

I've watched a few of his videos and he seems like a really cool guy. Someone I'd enjoy a conversation with, but it's him and others that are part of the problem.

I one upped you Pogre although it was not my intention to do so. I got banned from the Hoffman forum for accusing him of selling snake oil and make fraudulent claims about speaker cables and interconnects znd generally misleading and lieing to the public. I should actually thank that AHOLE for banning me because it reduced some unneeded stress in my life.

 

[3db]

I agree with the article in general but am perplexed to the references made in point 1 of vinyl being lofi and having less dynamic range than a CD. I'm confused because of the article below which states that LP has more dynamic range and a better spectral content than a CD; both of which contradicts that vinyl is lofi.

Dynamic Comparison of LPs vs CDs - Part 4 - page 2

Yes, you have heard all the arguments before, and you are probably sick and tired of it. LP vs digital is a "religious war" that has been played out by various audiophiles ever since the CD format Page 0

www.audioholics.com

.

 

[highfigh]

I think good wireless technology would go a long way for the new consumers for sure....see the request all the time and its largely slim pickins.....

What, exactly, are people asking for? We already have Sonos/MusicCast/Heos, Bluetooth, AIrplay from a wide range of brands (major and less-known). What sources do they want to use?

 

[highfigh]

Nothing against Vinyl, per se... Frankly, it's a lifestyle choice. Much like Cigars and rare Whiskey. All are more expensive than some good drugs!

I haven't seen anyone destroy their life by getting hooked on vinyl, shoot up a crowded club, join a gang, deal in black market LPs & accessories or start a cartel.

I can only imagine someone holding their new cables, saying "Say hello to my little frien'".

 

[highfigh]

Part of the audiophilia as a religious concept that can cause problems (and does, if someone wants to look for it) is that one side doesn't like to accept the thinking of the other. Just like some religions. Some of the sheisters who are selling their crap are too similar to televangelists- if they start showing up on late-night TV and drone on for hours asking for donations, it'll be time for action.

 

[Pogre]

I haven't seen anyone destroy their life by getting hooked on vinyl, shoot up a crowded club, join a gang, deal in black market LPs & accessories or start a cartel.

I can only imagine someone holding their new cables, saying "Say hello to my little frien'".

Apparently you've never heard of "LP's Angels", a motorcycle gang made famous by running drugs and lo fi bootleg recordings.

 

[highfigh]

Apparently you've never heard of "LP's Angels", a motorcycle gang made famous by running drugs and lo fi bootleg recordings.

I knew a guy who bought some DIII cleaning fluid from those dudes- he was never the same after......

 

[Cromulent]

Love this article! I agree with most of it. My only argument is with your take on vinyl and older DACs I feel you have missed the point of both. I personally like how different types of gear sound I'm never looking for the mythical perfect system or recording. I look at it like listening to a slice of tech in a particular time period and how it reacts with my current system or tge system I am listening to. Sheffield lab disc were suppose to be amazing and sound at best brassy on good gear but I like to listen to them to see how far we have come.

Totally agree with your arguments on adding video and designing your room around your system.

Tired of telling people you can't hear the difference between a 400$ and 40$ USB.

Thanks again for the great article I've shared it many times.

 

[Eppie]

I'm trying to look at this in relation to the article. What gets young people into hi-fi and keeps them interested? If we take Schiit Audio as an example, you need to look at the intended market. These are more 'lifestyle' products for people that want compact 2 channel systems. Beautifully engineered, good specs and often compared to products costing a lot more money. Yes, you can buy a competent AVR for the same money, but for a young adult looking to drive a modern looking pair of KEF LS50 speakers (insert something cheaper if you like) or high-end headphones, I can see the appeal, and that's good for the industry.

The science over religion aspect has some grey areas. Most of us here hate the snake oil sales pitch on cables, but do you extend that to boutique audio gear? Is a $2,000 DAC bad for the industry? I'll admit, I have to chuckle when a Youtuber claims that a $2,000 streamer sounds noticeably better than a $1,500 model. Empirical measurements would likely show that the output is virtually identical. The videos can be fun to watch though, so if they generate interest that may lead to someone doing more research and getting started in the hobby. I do feel for those like @ciedema who encounter videos on DAC weights and power cables. That can drive people away leaving them thinking that audiophiles are plain nuts.