Getting That Itch Again...

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I love it when my friends get new gear. Theyre fun and excitement I live through myself as I watch them enjoy it. If I lived by Pogre I'd be down there right now helping him set it all up. I could do this stuff all day! :D
It's not that long a drive, is it? :)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well what are we waiting for!!! Lol :D
I've got everything hooked up and turned the Behringer on. No sound yet. I need to figure out how set up the amp. This is completely new to me so I gotta do some digging. I downloaded the PFD with instructions how to get started and just now started reading. This might take li'l while... lol.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
As I sit here sipping coffee and look around the work ahead of me is sinking in. This ain't gonna be a plug n play situation. I have different interconnects to work with and an amp I'm completely unfamiliar with. I see a USB port for pc interface, but it also has a display. I have yet to figure out a spot for this sub! I don't think nearfield is gonna work with this bad boy because of the sheer size. I have other choices tho. Any suggestions to start with placement? I'm thinking about starting g with the dining room behind me.
Just finished getting caught up on this thread!
I think you have evolved past this point, but just in case...Would one of your Hsu's fit better in the near-field location? My first thought was to put the RBH in the location you said worked best for a sub in your room. Just another consideration that you have probably already thought of, but I know sometimes when I get wrapped up in getting something done, I don't always take that step back to consider other options. However, it does make sense to keep your Hsu's up front to support Audyssey in tuning your system (see below).

Here is my understanding on bi-amping (please anyone correct me if I am mistaken).
Why standard bi-amping is of little benefit
Usually with a 2 or three way speaker, if you look at the phase-impedance curve there is one (sometimes 2) place where a speaker is a glutton for power - let's say at 95Hz where the impedance drops down to 3 ohms and the phase angle is at 40 degrees. This is where that 100Watt AVR is likely to find its limit. If you have extra channels on your AVR and if the speaker allows it, you can bi-amp the speakers, but that is little to no help with the problem of 100 Watts into the frequency where impedance and phase angle are stacked against you. You can make a case that the tweeter is not going to sound as bad since the amp driving it is not the one being clipped, but the woofer amp is still being pushed into clipping. So, you are better off buying one 200 (or 400!) Watt amp than buying two 100Watt amps and bi-amping.
In your case, you are driving identical drivers (with identical phase-impedance charts), so I think there is more benefit to bi-amping (bi-amping has marginal benefit with a standard speaker, just not much and if you have options, getting a single more powerful channel is a better solution). I would expect the Monolith provides enough power for typical listening and bi-amping will certainly provide a little more headroom.

Since you have Audyssey XT32, you should make your 2 Hsu subs one channel (using a RCA splitter) and your RBH the other channel (again using a RCA splitter if you bi-amp). The only place where Audyssey differentiates between the channels is matching the level and delay. With the Hsu's approximately the same distance from the LP (?) you can manually match volumes (if the gain controls and amps are consistent, or you can do it by ear if they are not) and they should be in phase with each other (again assuming roughly same distance to the LP). This is the SubEQ feature of Audyssey XT32 (some earlier Onkyo amps had Audyssey XT32 without subEQ which forced you to manually level/delay match two subs just as I suggest here). Obviously (if you bi-amp) the 2 channels of the RBH should be well matched for level and phase and if you don't bi-amp, it is a mute point.
Next, the subEQ will match level and phase between the HSU's and the RBH. Then Audyssey treats all 3 (or "4" if bi-amped) subs as one when it is time for the EQ room correction.
I don't know how your MiniDSP tuning worked best, but Audyssey concluded it was better to treat all subs as one than to attempt to tune them separately!

You probably already know all of this, but it has been a while since I have posted and I was feeling left out of the fun!!! :D :)
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Just finished getting caught up on this thread!
I think you have evolved past this point, but just in case...Would one of your Hsu's fit better in the near-field location? My first thought was to put the RBH in the location you said worked best for a sub in your room. Just another consideration that you have probably already thought of, but I know sometimes when I get wrapped up in getting something done, I don't always take that step back to consider other options. However, it does make sense to keep your Hsu's up front to support Audyssey in tuning your system (see below).

Here is my understanding on bi-amping (please anyone correct me if I am mistaken).
Why standard bi-amping is of little benefit
Usually with a 2 or three way speaker, if you look at the phase-impedance curve there is one (sometimes 2) place where a speaker is a glutton for power - let's say at 45Hz where the impedance drops down to 3 ohms and the phase angle is at 40 degrees. This is where that 100Watt AVR is likely to find its limit. If you have extra channels on your AVR and if the speaker allows it, you can bi-amp the speakers, but that is little to no help with the problem of 100 Watts into the frequency where impedance and phase angle are stacked against you. You can make a case that the tweeter is not going to sound as bad since the amp driving it is not the one being clipped, but the woofer amp is still being pushed into clipping. So, you are better off buying one 200 (or 400!) Watt amp than buying two 100Watt amps and bi-amping.
In your case, you are driving identical drivers (with identical phase-impedance charts), so I think there is more benefit to bi-amping (bi-amping has marginal benefit with a standard speaker, just not much and if you have options, getting a single more powerful channel is a better solution). I would expect the Monolith provides enough power for typical listening and bi-amping will certainly provide a little more headroom.

Since you have Audyssey XT32, you should make your 2 Hsu subs one channel (using a RCA splitter) and your RBH the other channel (again using a RCA splitter if you bi-amp). The only place where Audyssey differentiates between the channels is matching the level and delay. With the Hsu's approximately the same distance from the LP (?) you can manually match volumes (if the gain controls and amps are consistent, or you can do it by ear if they are not) and they should be in phase with each other (again assuming roughly same distance to the LP). This is the SubEQ feature of Audyssey XT32 (some earlier Onkyo amps had Audyssey XT32 without subEQ which forced you to manually level/delay match two subs just as I suggest here). Obviously (if you bi-amp) the 2 channels of the RBH should be well matched for level and phase and if you don't bi-amp, it is a mute point.
Next, the subEQ will match level and phase between the HSU's and the RBH. Then Audyssey treats all 3 (or "4" if bi-amped) subs as one when it is time for the EQ room correction.
I don't know how your MiniDSP tuning worked best, but Audyssey concluded it was better to treat all subs as one than to attempt to tune them separately!

You probably already know all of this, but it has been a while since I have posted and I was feeling left out of the fun!!! :D :)
Making the 2 HSUs 1 and keeping them both up front is the plan. Audyssey already sets them within 0.1' the same distance independantly (19.8 and 19.7' respectively) and I do follow suit with Audyssey and eq both globally nstead of independently. I did consider putting the 1212 up front on the left, but I'm unsure how that'd fly with them being 2 different subs with different port tuning. 22 hz for the 1212 and 16 hz for the HSUs when they're in eq 1 with 1 port open, which is where I do my room correcting. However, when I'm done I pull the port plug and switch to eq 2 which is about the same port tuning as the 1212 at ~20 hz.

Right now I'm tryna figure out how to get this Behringer up and running. Just taking a quick break.
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Stupid question here. I have never used a passive subwoofer. How exactly does that work? You obviously need an amp? Is it any amp? Can a receiver be used to power it? Again please excuse my ignorance.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Making the 2 HSUs 1 and keeping them both up front is the plan. Audyssey already sets them within 0.1' the same distance independantly (19.8 and 19.7' respectively) and I do follow suit with Audyssey and eq both globally nstead of independently. I did consider putting the 1212 up front on the left, but I'm unsure how that'd fly with them being 2 different subs with different port tuning. 22 hz for the 1212 and 16 hz for the HSUs when they're in eq 1 with 1 port open, which is where I do my room correcting. However, when I'm done I pull the port plug and switch to eq 2 which is about the same port tuning as the 1212 at ~20 hz.

Right now I'm tryna figure out how to get this Behringer up and running. Just taking a quick break.
Did you watch that link I showed you bro on home theater gurus?
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Making the 2 HSUs 1 and keeping them both up front is the plan. Audyssey already sets them within 0.1' the same distance independantly (19.8 and 19.7' respectively) and I do follow suit with Audyssey and eq both globally nstead of independently. I did consider putting the 1212 up front on the left, but I'm unsure how that'd fly with them being 2 different subs with different port tuning. 22 hz for the 1212 and 16 hz for the HSUs when they're in eq 1 with 1 port open, which is where I do my room correcting. However, when I'm done I pull the port plug and switch to eq 2 which is about the same port tuning as the 1212 at ~20 hz.

Right now I'm tryna figure out how to get this Behringer up and running. Just taking a quick break.
Okay your going to kill me that is the one with dsp it's the nx3000d I thought for a 2nd there it was the nx3000. Yeah after you get doing reading the PDF you should check that link and you should be good as long as you have that one good channel you should be good to go

I had a learning curve with my crown XTI's so let me know if I can answer any questions after you fire it up bro

Sorry for the temporary confusion
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay your going to kill me that is the one with dsp it's the nx3000d I thought for a 2nd there it was the nx3000. Yeah after you get doing reading the PDF you should check that link and you should be good as long as you have that one good channel you should be good to go

I had a learning curve with my crown XTI's so let me know if I can answer any questions after you fire it up bro

Sorry for the temporary confusion
Well, part of it is one channel is out and I mixed them up. Plus I need to reassign channels on my mini, but I have it all sussed out now and it's up and running.

Ho-Lee balls! This thing is pounding right behind my seat like this! It's barely even doing anything! That amp he gave me is more than enough! I think my bi amp with the Monolith option would work too, but I got the Behringer hooked up and it's working great so I'm running with that.

Okay, now I'm getting excited! I have some more work ahead of me still tho... I'll keep poking back in here.

*PS, he did do the fan mod on this amp too. It's very quiet. I can't hear it even close up.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
*PS, he did do the fan mod on this amp too. It's very quiet. I can't hear it even close up.
Well, use a flashlight just to make sure the fan is working that might be the reason that one channel died!
Of course that might be a thermostatically controlled fan so it might not run until you get hot. So you'll want to determine that before you make a call as to whether or not the fan is running!

Edit: please excuse any speech to text errors I am on my phone in my thumbs don't work as well as the kids'!
 
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D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Well, part of it is one channel is out and I mixed them up. Plus I need to reassign channels on my mini, but I have it all sussed out now and it's up and running.

Ho-Lee balls! This thing is pounding right behind my seat like this! It's barely even doing anything! That amp he gave me is more than enough! I think my bi amp with the Monolith option would work too, but I got the Behringer hooked up and it's working great so I'm running with that.

Okay, now I'm getting excited! I have some more work ahead of me still tho... I'll keep poking back in here.

*PS, he did do the fan mod on this amp too. It's very quiet. I can't hear it even close up.
I told you that sub was incredible!!!

once you get it tuned perfect and calibrated with your system that fuggin setup you have is gonna rock bro!

Damn I wish I could be there!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Well, part of it is one channel is out and I mixed them up. Plus I need to reassign channels on my mini, but I have it all sussed out now and it's up and running.

Ho-Lee balls! This thing is pounding right behind my seat like this! It's barely even doing anything! That amp he gave me is more than enough! I think my bi amp with the Monolith option would work too, but I got the Behringer hooked up and it's working great so I'm running with that.

Okay, now I'm getting excited! I have some more work ahead of me still tho... I'll keep poking back in here.

*PS, he did do the fan mod on this amp too. It's very quiet. I can't hear it even close up.
You know what's awesome audioholics did a review of these subs the numbers they put out are massive let me see if I can link them to you

And sitting near field you'll be getting all of it!

Combined with the clarity and smoothness and added output of your HSU combined oh boy bro get ready for awesomeness!!!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Stupid question here. I have never used a passive subwoofer. How exactly does that work? You obviously need an amp? Is it any amp? Can a receiver be used to power it? Again please excuse my ignorance.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Just like a sub with a plate amp except there is no plate amp, and the amp is elsewhere (in your rack usually). So you run speaker wire to the sub from the amp instead of a line level connection....and if you have an amp like Pogre got with his, it has more comprehensive dsp than most plate amps too.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Oh yeah! Thanks Lovin!

With the right DSP this is what these beauties can really do. And @ Pogre can enjoy all of that from near field oh yeah baby

I still remember in my old house when I ran my old PB 4000's near field

best most fun experience I ever had. Does take a little work though to get them to integrate right but it's worth it!
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Oh yeah! Thanks Lovin!

With the right DSP this is what these beauties can really do. And @ Pogre can enjoy all of that from near field oh yeah baby

I still remember in my old house when I ran my old PB 4000's near field

best most fun experience I ever had. Does take a little work though to get them to integrate right but it's worth it!
Funny you mention nearfield subs. I recently got a PB-2000 Pro, I already had a PB-1000 so I'm running them together and it sounds pretty dam good. They are both at the front of the room on either of the TV. I want to move the PB-1000 nearfield to the back of the room here to see what difference it makes. I think I can fit it in behind the couch but it's gonna sorta be in the corner.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Calling it good for tonight! I'm just now kicking back and doing some listening. Hard to describe the difference with mid bass. Just seems clearer and more "there". Deep bass... nearfield is another level. I can really feel it shake my chair! It's pretty awesome! I'll go back in again again and do a little more tweaking, but it's pretty dialed right now. I did my usual for a house curve after I got it flat like below. I got poop bumpin' right now, lol. Oh! No issues with localization either!

03-28-21.jpg
03-28-21 Waterfall.jpg
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Calling it good for tonight! I'm just now kicking back and doing some listening. Hard to describe the difference with mid bass. Just seems clearer and more "there". Deep bass... nearfield is another level. I can really feel it shake my chair! It's pretty awesome! I'll go back in again again and do a little more tweaking, but it's pretty dialed right now. I did my usual for a house curve after I got it flat like below. I got poop bumpin' right now, lol. Oh! No issues with localization either!

View attachment 46066View attachment 46067
Wow that chart looks sweet! Great overall response!!! I bet it sounds so awesome bro super happy for you!
 
D

Danzilla31

Audioholic Spartan
Funny you mention nearfield subs. I recently got a PB-2000 Pro, I already had a PB-1000 so I'm running them together and it sounds pretty dam good. They are both at the front of the room on either of the TV. I want to move the PB-1000 nearfield to the back of the room here to see what difference it makes. I think I can fit it in behind the couch but it's gonna sorta be in the corner.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
Go for it takes a little tweaking but it's worth it when you get it right
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
Go for it takes a little tweaking but it's worth it when you get it right
Thanks, I've been procrastinating but I really want to try it. Need a 25 foot RCA cable and I'm ready to go.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Stupid question here. I have never used a passive subwoofer. How exactly does that work? You obviously need an amp? Is it any amp? Can a receiver be used to power it? Again please excuse my ignorance.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
It's just like a speaker and you hook it to a separate amp. I'm using one of my sub preouts, running a rca from there to the amp the seller gave me. I could use spare channels on my Monolith too, should I want to since I have the MiniDSP. I think the Mono can do it pretty easily for a nearfield setup. Especially if I... BI AMP! :p

I do have a ground loop tho... I can hear it coming from the 1212 when nothing is playing and I get close to it. Like ear a couple inches away. Sounds higher than 60 hz too. I'm guessing distance and using a connector between 2 rca's isn't helping.
 

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