confederate symbols

[Dude#1279435]

Are you saying that the Confederacy was Republican? If so, you might want to study history.

WRT not approaching people to give them food or water- why can't they use a system where the people in line get a number (like in a deli) and food trucks come in to feed people? That way, the voter goes to the food and pays for it, so nobody is exchanging food or water for a vote. When they return, the number gets them in their original place in line. If the lines are so long that people have to wait for hours, they're (the state/local government) doing it wrong. Get 'em in, get 'em out.

Nope, I'm saying you have said yourself about preserving history to include yucky statues because people can't figure out history for themselves. Also a conservative host said "The founders owned slaves!" I'm saying "So?" When the point is some people are offended by that, and no amount of reasoning can be reconciled. The statues are up in those areas for a reason, and little has to do with so people will remember the bad parts of our history. It's a low bar to live by.

 

[carlthess40]

I just feel it’s pretty pathetic that you people don’t have anything else to bitch about other than some statues being up. I live in the south and a half for 90% of my life. I know how to identify with the north and the south I’m proud of both but I don’t hold against people what happened generations ago. I had nothing to do it and you had nothing to do with it so just go about your business and live life and try making yourself and your family a better family unit


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[Irvrobinson]

I just feel it’s pretty pathetic that you people don’t have anything else to bitch about other than some statues being up. I live in the south and a half for 90% of my life. I know how to identify with the north and the south I’m proud of both but I don’t hold against people what happened generations ago. I had nothing to do it and you had nothing to do with it so just go about your business and live life and try making yourself and your family a better family unit.

I think it's pretty pathetic that anyone would want to defend a group of traitors who wanted nothing more than to defend and propagate slavery, racism, and the right to expand those policies into the western territories. Just what do you think White Settlement is all about? Named after Perry White? What do you think happened? A "War of Northern Aggression"? I don't hold what happened in the 1600s, the 1700s, or the 1800s against anyone alive either. I do hold it against people alive now if they try to defend or romanticize it, and it scares the hell out of me that a lot of people do. How do you feel when you see people waving around a Confederate flag? It makes me sick, and it always has.

 

[panteragstk]

Books are for remembering people, statues are for celebrating them.

 

[carlthess40]

It had very little to do with slavery
It was more about taxes and the taken of lands in the south, many many people from the north owned slaves


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[Irvrobinson]

It had very little to do with slavery
It was more about taxes and the taken of lands in the south, many many people from the north owned slaves

You're delusional.

I assume you're talking about the alternative truth, propagated for decades that the Civil War was not fought over slavery, but over an act of Congress called the Morrill Tariff. This story, like "The War of Northern Aggression" fairy tale, has no basis in historical fact. It is an apologist view for secession over the election of Lincoln as president, because the Republican party was founded on the idea of eliminating slavery in the US, specifically the expansion of slaveholding rights into US territories.

Don't believe me about the origin of the Republican Party? Well, how about what the party says about itself:

About Our Party | GOP

Learn about the Republican Party’s platform.

www.gop.com

Your statement about federal taxation on southern states doesn't hold water, as 90% of federal revenue was collected through customs duties before the Civil War. I don't know what you're talking about with "taking of lands in the south", but I assume that means the restriction of slaveholding in the adjacent territories.

I learned about this tariff bullshit story decades ago when I was in college (I took two semesters of Civil War history), and it's still going and is easy to search for. Take a close look at the author of this version of it:

Abraham Lincoln said war was over taxes, not slavery

By Roger K. Broxton of Andalusia, president of the Confederate Heritage Fund Abraham Lincoln repeatedly stated his war was caused by taxes only, and not by slavery, at all. "My policy sought only to collect the Revenue (a 40 percent federal sales...

www.al.com

Personally, I don't care how many people from the north held slaves before the Civil War. The only thing that's important is that slavery ended with the Civil War. Unfortunately, discrimination against Blacks did not end with the Civil War, and was most prominent in the southern states, because that's where about 90% of the Blacks lived, due to slavery. But discrimination was a national problem. The Civil War didn't necessarily make the northern states more moral or just when it came to race, it just eliminated slavery. But I'm only arguing with you because I get so sick and tired of the attempted rationalization of secession and a war that can't be rationalized. It was all about slavery. If it wasn't all about slavery, hundreds of thousands of lives could have been saved by just agreeing to free the slaves, and yet the war was fought. The revisionist history is nonsense.

 

[panteragstk]

https://www.procon.org/headlines/historic-statue-removal-top-3-pros-cons/

From the article:

A petition in Tennessee gained 22,736 signatures (and counting as of July 8, 2020) to replace all Confederate statues in the state, including the statue of Confederate Army General and KKK Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest that stands in the state’s capitol building, with statues of Dolly Parton. [29] [30]

Explain how having a former KKK grand wizard statue in front of the state capitol isn't racist? They put it up sometime in 1973. How is that anything but celebrating him? Sure, if it was put up in 1873 it'd make a LOT more sense, but makes sense why the statue is offensive to people.

I will say there is a HUGE difference between that statue and one of the founding fathers who happened to own slaves. The main difference is the founding fathers are known for something that isn't slavery, but plenty of statues around the south are of people that are JUST known for being racist slave owners.

Keep in mind, I'm from a town that had a confederate air force (WWI planes) and people got all pissy because they changed the name to the commemorative air force. It made zero sense for it to be called that in the first place and isn't meant to "remember history" but celebrate the secession of southern states. I also went to Robert E. Lee high school which was named that was founded in 1961. Interesting timing. Wonder what could have made them do that ~100 years after the civil war was over?

EDIT: Something I heard is that "you can't judge people in the past by today's standards" and I agree with that. The latter half of the 20th century isn't far enough in the past to qualify.

 

[Dude#1279435]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials

-In Alabama (2017), Georgia (early 20th century),[52] Mississippi (2004), North Carolina (2015), South Carolina (2000), Tennessee (2013, updated 2016), and Virginia (1902, repealed 2020), state laws have been passed to impede, or in the cases of Alabama,[53] Georgia, and North Carolina[54] prohibit altogether, the removal or alteration of public Confederate monuments.[55] Attempts to repeal these laws have not been successful, except in Virginia. Alabama's law, the Alabama Memorial Preservation Act, was passed in May 2017, North Carolina's law, the Cultural History Artifact Management and Patriotism Act, in 2015.[56]

-According to an April 2020 study, Confederate monuments are more likely to be removed in localities that have a large black and Democratic population, a chapter of the NAACP, and where Southern state legislatures have the power to decree removal.[46]

This is what I don't get about some Republicans IMO. They will remind you it was southern Democrats who were mostly a part of the KKK but than turn around and defend the statues in the name of preserving history. Often they are not black, and often they don't live there(!).

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/ps-political-science-and-politics/article/set-in-stone-predicting-confederate-monument-removal/9702ED7AD10038BF244AC98B87593429

 

[highfigh]

Nope, I'm saying you have said yourself about preserving history to include yucky statues because people can't figure out history for themselves. Also a conservative host said "The founders owned slaves!" I'm saying "So?" When the point is some people are offended by that, and no amount of reasoning can be reconciled. The statues are up in those areas for a reason, and little has to do with so people will remember the bad parts of our history. It's a low bar to live by.

I heard someone say the statues should be put in museums- if people want to see them, let them pay and that will support the museums but the general public won't be paying.

One of my problems with people is that they can't figure out morality and ethical behavior. They need to put that at the top of their list of "Ways to improve myself in the upcoming year".

It's 2021- people should be able to get along much better than they do without someone telling them they're doing it wrong, being put in prison for their violent crimes, obliterating the rights of others, etc.

 

[Irvrobinson]

EDIT: Something I heard that I do agree with is that "you can't judge people in the past by today's standards" and I agree with that. The latter half of the 20th century isn't far enough in the past to qualify.

1961 was two years before Alabama Gov George Wallace's infamous Stand in the Schoolhouse Door. President Kennedy issued an executive order to federalize the Alabama National Guard, and the rest is disgusting and embarrassing history. So 1961 was still in the dark ages.

 

[highfigh]

I think it's pretty pathetic that anyone would want to defend a group of traitors who wanted nothing more than to defend and propagate slavery, racism, and the right to expand those policies into the western territories. Just what do you think White Settlement is all about? Named after Perry White? What do you think happened? A "War of Northern Aggression"? I don't hold what happened in the 1600s, the 1700s, or the 1800s against anyone alive either. I do hold it against people alive now if they try to defend or romanticize it, and it scares the hell out of me that a lot of people do. How do you feel when you see people waving around a Confederate flag? It makes me sick, and it always has.

Not to defend it, but the Wiki page shows "The area was called "White" because it was a settlement of White homesteaders, as opposed to other settlements in the vicinity that were composed of both White and Native American residents.".

Maybe they settled there because they were being tormented by others- we all know White people have never shied away from the opportunity to to kill, oppress or control people who don't look like them.

 

[panteragstk]

1961 was two years before Alabama Gov George Wallace's infamous Stand in the Schoolhouse Door. President Kennedy issued an executive order to federalize the Alabama National Guard, and the rest is disgusting and embarrassing history. So 1961 was still in the dark ages.

That's what's crazy to me. Yes, it was 60 years ago, but that's enough time for progress to be made, but not as much time as people think.

As long as people were alive in the "dark ages" and keep the ideas from that time alive, we aren't going to make much progress.

Never thought I'd say this, but people really need to get with the times. I'm all for celebrating the good things in our past and acknowledging the bad so we don't repeat, but it seems too many want to celebrate or even bring back the bad. No thanks.

 

[highfigh]

That's what's crazy to me. Yes, it was 60 years ago, but that's enough time for progress to be made, but not as much time as people think.

The Civil War ended in 1865 and people haven't stopped clinging to the thinking of that time- why is 60 years enough time to make so much progress?

People don't like to change and it's not just Republicans. They may want change, but they don't want to change themselves.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Never thought I'd say this, but people really need to get with the times. I'm all for celebrating the good things in our past and acknowledging the bad so we don't repeat, but it seems too many want to celebrate or even bring back the bad. No thanks.

I think you've touched on the problem. For *a lot* of people, the times haven't changed. I think many of us live with the delusion that times have changed, and that it's only a small vocal minority that's the problem. I'm not sure it's a minority yet. Perhaps changing demographics over the next few decades will be the only real solution.

 

[highfigh]

I think you've touched on the problem. For *a lot* of people, the times haven't changed. I think many of us live with the delusion that times have changed, and that it's only a small vocal minority that's the problem. I'm not sure it's a minority yet. Perhaps changing demographics over the next few decades will be the only real solution.

I would like to see the media do an experiment by decreasing their content telling everyone that the country is a racist hell-hole. I'm in Milwaukee, which has been called 'the most segregated city in America' and I just don't see or hear about many local interracial conflicts. I also listen to a police scanner app and these are very rare. I go into the city on a regular basis and, while I know some will call me 'naive', I don't think it's as bad as the media show. Yes, I have seen reports about recent attacks on people by someone of a different 'race'- the largest increase has been against Asians, as if all are responsible for COVID. That's just stupid, but it's what humans do on a regular basis. It happened after the slaves were freed, it happened when the US was seeing a flood of Irish, Asian, Italian, German, Polish, Hispanic and other people coming here to make a better life, but attacking after a specific event without thinking is not new- it happened after 9-11, too. A Sikh in the Phoenix area was killed by someone who thought he was Middle-Eastern, just because of his traditional headwear and other attacks occurred around that time.

I would also like to see surveys conducted by unbiased groups, asking people for examples of how they were treated badly by others, oppressed by government and showing this over a one/five/ten year time frame.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would like to see the media do an experiment by decreasing their content telling everyone that the country is a racist hell-hole. I'm in Milwaukee, which has been called 'the most segregated city in America' and I just don't see or hear about many local interracial conflicts. I also listen to a police scanner app and these are very rare. I go into the city on a regular basis and, while I know some will call me 'naive', I don't think it's as bad as the media show. Yes, I have seen reports about recent attacks on people by someone of a different 'race'- the largest increase has been against Asians, as if all are responsible for COVID. That's just stupid, but it's what humans do on a regular basis. It happened after the slaves were freed, it happened when the US was seeing a flood of Irish, Asian, Italian, German, Polish, Hispanic and other people coming here to make a better life, but attacking after a specific event without thinking is not new- it happened after 9-11, too. A Sikh in the Phoenix area was killed by someone who thought he was Middle-Eastern, just because of his traditional headwear and other attacks occurred around that time.

I would also like to see surveys conducted by unbiased groups, asking people for examples of how they were treated badly by others, oppressed by government and showing this over a one/five/ten year time frame.

The US has a serious issue still with racism in a very large portion of the population, being fed vitriol by the republicans to keep it going.....

 

[highfigh]

The US has a serious issue still with racism in a very large portion of the population, being fed vitriol by the republicans to keep it going.....

Republicans with an audience may be the cause- I think people could get along if nobody was fanning the flames and pouring gas onto the fires.

Once again, don't blame one side when it's not a one-sided problem. Nobody gets a pass when they try to prevent others living a normal life with all of the same freedoms.

 

[lovinthehd]

Republicans with an audience may be the cause- I think people could get along if nobody was fanning the flames and pouring gas onto the fires.

Once again, don't blame one side when it's not a one-sided problem. Nobody gets a pass when they try to prevent others living a normal life with all of the same freedoms.

I didn't say it was a one sided problem. Just seems most of that bent are leaning republican. Certainly holds true for the folk in my life. Of course there's no need to feed the flames, unless you think it gets you votes. It seemed to work for drumphy to a good extent, what with his own racism and that of several key members of his administration.....

 

[Dude#1279435]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_Confederate_monuments_and_memorials

Wiki says between 1865-2009 there were 2 statue removals. Between Charlottesville and George Floyd's death there were 66. So assuming the data is correct, it suggests something bad has to happen to push removal. Oddly the Charleston church shooting didn't make much movement.

 

[jesse_sanders]

You started a thread to bash Republicans? Lol

What's it like having a tiny lord helmet?

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