China now a Clear and Present Danger

[GO-NAD!]

While they have adopted capitalism in some ways, the CCP still own many businesses and when a privately-owned entity does well enough, they will take over its operation. Manufacturing in China often comes with many problems and as an example, woodworking machinery for consumers and lower level commercial use can't be made in the US anymore because it wouldn't be affordable, so they went offshore. They would hire one foundry to cast the parts to some spec, but what they were getting often hadn't been made accurately, the materials weren't what were needed, processes had been skipped or done badly and in many cases, the original manufacturer had hired another to do the work for less money. One result was cast iron that hadn't been allowed to relieve internal stresses, which warped and/or cracked over time and the overall quality was terrible, so they placed people in the plants to monitor the quality. Many brands of this machinery are made in the same or associated plants, built to spec. The quality has improved greatly. Same for many tools- many major companies that were US-owned are now owned by the Chinese.

Why do they have so many empty cities and apartment buildings? If they built them to keep people busy, it's similar to the saying I heard from someone who had lived in the Czech Republic- "We'll pretend to pay you, if you pretend to work".

They control communication, news and many other aspects of life that are allowed to be done without restriction in most countries, although they allow private ownership if someone 'gets along' with the Party.

They're getting to be a problem WRT their military, too. Even Russia is pushing back, but I would bet you have heard more about that than we do here in the US because of access to different media outlets.

China is communist in many ways, but have adopted other ways, in order to kill the enemy with its own weapons.

I would be more inclined to call China's economy merchantilist than capitalist.

 

[highfigh]

I wasn't speaking of private companies. I was speaking of the US government. It is a lot easier to get hired by private companies and get access to intellectual property than it is to get hired by the government for clearance-required jobs, or to work on contracted projects which require clearance. As for the UN, well, I wish their headquarters would move to another country.

I was referring to the US gov't, too.

I agree about the UN and I think the US should be paid for much of what it has provided to other countries.

 

[highfigh]

I would be more inclined to call China's economy merchantilist than capitalist.

I would agree that their system fits that moniker, although I think people in the CCP have become 'all about the Benjamins'.

 

[highfigh]

Blaming China for all the tech we exported to them freely....meh.

I have to think that someone asked "What's the worst that could happen?".

 

[cpp]

Yeah, and we have access to top secret info? BS.

This is not TS. Its for anyone to search for.
https://www.justice.gov/nsd/information-about-department-justice-s-china-initiative-and-compilation-china-related

 

[Trell]

Well China is called the Chinese Communist Party .
"If Vladimir Lenin were reincarnated in 21st-century Beijing and managed to avert his eyes from the city’s glittering skyscrapers and conspicuous consumption, he would instantly recognize in the ruling Chinese Communist Party a replica of the system he designed nearly a century ago for the victors of the Bolshevik Revolution. One need only look at the party’s structure to see how communist — and Leninist — China’s political system remains.


Sure, China long ago dumped the core of the communist economic system, replacing rigid central planning with commercially minded state enterprises that coexist with a vigorous private sector. Yet for all their liberalization of the economy, Chinese leaders have been careful to keep control of the commanding heights of politics through the party’s grip on the “three Ps”: personnel, propaganda, and the People’s Liberation Army."https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/01/03/5-myths-about-the-chinese-communist-party/

They call themselves Communist for propaganda reasons but, oh boy, have they changed. Now they are just a brutal dictatorship existing to enrich themselves while exchanging love letters with Trump.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I would agree that their system fits that moniker, although I think people in the CCP have become 'all about the Benjamins'.

The Benjamins are all in the service of the CCP though. Have enough sprinkled amongst the proletariat to keep them "fat, dumb and happy", while generating revenue for the regime. They're content to allow "private enterprise" to prosper, as long as businesses know who the boss is and when the boss comes a callin', they do his bidding.

 

[Mr._Clark]

From reading this thread I don't think anyone in this thread does not think that China is aggressive and is doing harm, and not just to USA. Claiming that the Chinese culture is the same as Communism is way off, though of course they have their own version of it. Calling China Communist today is sort of a stretch.

"Calling China Communist today is sort of a stretch."

We can call it something besides "Communist." If accuracy is the goal, I suggest "Really sucky lying stealing totalitarian genocidal government that does not recognize human rights or property rights."

>>>Although China once shied away from the aggressive, conspiratorial type of disinformation favored by Russia, it has increasingly turned to this approach during the coronavirus pandemic. Beijing is both manipulating factual information and spreading disinformation—or willfully false information—to distract from the origins of the virus, highlight the failures of the United States, and promote China as a global leader.<<<

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-china-ramped-disinformation-efforts-during-pandemic

>>>China’s government sees human rights as an existential threat. Its reaction could pose an existential threat to the rights of people worldwide.

At home, the Chinese Communist Party, worried that permitting political freedom would jeopardize its grasp on power, has constructed an Orwellian high-tech surveillance state and a sophisticated internet censorship system to monitor and suppress public criticism. Abroad, it uses its growing economic clout to silence critics and to carry out the most intense attack on the global system for enforcing human rights since that system began to emerge in the mid-20th century.<<<

World Report 2020: Rights Trends in China’s Global Threat to Human Rights

www.hrw.org

>>>The human rights situation continued to be marked by a systematic crackdown on dissent. The justice system remained plagued by unfair trials and torture and other ill-treatment in detention. China still classified information on its extensive use of the death penalty as a state secret.

Repression conducted under the guise of “anti-separatism” or “counter-terrorism” remained particularly severe in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (Xinjiang) and Tibetan-populated areas (Tibet). Authorities subjected Uighurs, Kazakhs and other predominantly Muslim ethnic groups in Xinjiang to intrusive surveillance, arbitrary detention and forced indoctrination.<<<

Human rights in China

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in China with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

www.amnesty.org

"This report concludes that the People's Republic of China (China) bears State responsibility for committing genocide against Uyghers in breach of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide . . ."

The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China's Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention - New Lines Institute

This report is the first independent expert application of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the ongoing treatment of the Uyghurs in China.

newlinesinstitute.org

 

[Mr._Clark]

Vice has had a series of reports on China.

>>>A Chinese technology company with links to Beijing's military and intelligence agencies has been compiling personal information on millions of people from the US, UK, Australia, Canada, India and Japan. . . .

One intelligence analyst described the giant global database as "Cambridge Analytica on steroids", according to the ABC, while the Telegraph reported that intelligence sources described the scale of information as "frightening". Both publications were among the international consortium of media outlets that the database was shared with, including others in Australia, the UK, US, Canada, Italy and Germany.<<<

China has Been Doing ‘Mass Surveillance’ on Millions of Citizens in US, UK, Australia and India

A database of 2.4 million personal details has been leaked. Experts are calling it "frightening".

www.vice.com

 

[Trell]

"Calling China Communist today is sort of a stretch."

We can call it something besides "Communist." If accuracy is the goal, I suggest "Really sucky lying stealing totalitarian genocidal government that does not recognize human rights or property rights."

>>>Although China once shied away from the aggressive, conspiratorial type of disinformation favored by Russia, it has increasingly turned to this approach during the coronavirus pandemic. Beijing is both manipulating factual information and spreading disinformation—or willfully false information—to distract from the origins of the virus, highlight the failures of the United States, and promote China as a global leader.<<<

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-china-ramped-disinformation-efforts-during-pandemic

>>>China’s government sees human rights as an existential threat. Its reaction could pose an existential threat to the rights of people worldwide.

At home, the Chinese Communist Party, worried that permitting political freedom would jeopardize its grasp on power, has constructed an Orwellian high-tech surveillance state and a sophisticated internet censorship system to monitor and suppress public criticism. Abroad, it uses its growing economic clout to silence critics and to carry out the most intense attack o

n the global system for enforcing human rights since that system began to emerge in the mid-20th century.<<<

World Report 2020: Rights Trends in China’s Global Threat to Human Rights

www.hrw.org

>>>The human rights situation continued to be marked by a systematic crackdown on dissent. The justice system remained plagued by unfair trials and torture and other ill-treatment in detention. China still classified information on its extensive use of the death penalty as a state secret.

Repression conducted under the guise of “anti-separatism” or “counter-terrorism” remained particularly severe in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (Xinjiang) and Tibetan-populated areas (Tibet). Authorities subjected Uighurs, Kazakhs and other predominantly Muslim ethnic groups in Xinjiang to intrusive surveillance, arbitrary detention and forced indoctrination.<<<

Human rights in China

Stay up to date on the state of human rights in China with the latest research, campaigns and education material from Amnesty International.

www.amnesty.org

"This report concludes that the People's Republic of China (China) bears State responsibility for committing genocide against Uyghers in breach of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide . . ."

The Uyghur Genocide: An Examination of China's Breaches of the 1948 Genocide Convention - New Lines Institute

This report is the first independent expert application of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the ongoing treatment of the Uyghurs in China.

newlinesinstitute.org

You're preaching to the choir

My issue, one of them at least, is that the labelling China Communist is that particular mindset and responses are inappropriate and stuck in some kind of 50'ies fantasy. I think it is really unhelpful to handle the threat China poses today.

 

[Kvn_Walker]

We sent all our manufacturing to China for the cheap labor. We got our cheap-ass mass market goods. In the meantime, we lost jobs, and not only did the Chinese get export dollars, but they stole IP left and right.

When trump levied the tariffs, the jobs didn't come back. Manufacturers just moved operations to other Asian countries. I've noticed many clothes, electronics, and other goods now made in countries other than China. But still not in the US. The jobs didn't come back. Instead shareholders just asked "which country is cheaper than China?"

Where trump went wrong is attacking China directly, instead of penalizing every company (and not just "da libz" ) who imported goods that could be built in the US with resources we already have. Executive pay structures and Wall Street shenanigans would have had to be reigned in too. Problem is, politicians don't want to go after the ruling class. So let's give them tax cuts instead.

Long term, I'm willing to start paying more if it helps quality of life for Americans, and not just increases CEO bonuses. I feel the same way about minimum wage. I used to be poor as hell and lived off minimum wage. And I know from experience, the poor will spend extra money on frivolties. Give them extra $$ and they will spend it in places where other minimum wage earners work. That's how the system works.

Directly attacking China economically just made china more aggressive. Now they have been smoked out of their nest and are attacking the dartboard for the best path to domination.

I've read all 5 pages and no one has mentioned how heavily china has invested in Africa in recent years. The US didn't want to bother with any part of the continent that's not producing oil, so now the Chinese are establishing a foothold on controlling African mineral resources. They are thinking post-oil, while we fight and bicker about green energy making our V8's go away.

The question will always be "what are you willing to give up for what you say you want?". If the answer is " nothing," then you get out of it what you put into it.

 

[highfigh]

We sent all our manufacturing to China for the cheap labor. We got our cheap-ass mass market goods. In the meantime, we lost jobs, and not only did the Chinese get export dollars, but they stole IP left and right.

When trump levied the tariffs, the jobs didn't come back. Manufacturers just moved operations to other Asian countries. I've noticed many clothes, electronics, and other goods now made in countries other than China. But still not in the US. The jobs didn't come back. Instead shareholders just asked "which country is cheaper than China?"

Where trump went wrong is attacking China directly, instead of penalizing every company (and not just "da libz" ) who imported goods that could be built in the US with resources we already have. Executive pay structures and Wall Street shenanigans would have had to be reigned in too. Problem is, politicians don't want to go after the ruling class. So let's give them tax cuts instead.

Long term, I'm willing to start paying more if it helps quality of life for Americans, and not just increases CEO bonuses. I feel the same way about minimum wage. I used to be poor as hell and lived off minimum wage. And I know from experience, the poor will spend extra money on frivolties. Give them extra $$ and they will spend it in places where other minimum wage earners work. That's how the system works.

Directly attacking China economically just made china more aggressive. Now they have been smoked out of their nest and are attacking the dartboard for the best path to domination.

I've read all 5 pages and no one has mentioned how heavily china has invested in Africa in recent years. The US didn't want to bother with any part of the continent that's not producing oil, so now the Chinese are establishing a foothold on controlling African mineral resources. They are thinking post-oil, while we fight and bicker about green energy making our V8's go away.

The question will always be "what are you willing to give up for what you say you want?". If the answer is " nothing," then you get out of it what you put into it.

I would say the manufacturers asked "Which countries are cheap and NOT China? We had used many other Asian countries and in fact, still did before the levies. Look at power hand tools- Vietnam is a large source, as are Japan and Malaysia.

When manufacturing leaves the upper Midwest and other states to head South because they can find cheaper labor and a better tax climate, what is the chance they'll bring jobs back to the US?

U.S. Deposits of Rare-Earth Elements Are . . . Not So Rare, after All | National Review

Right now, the only U.S. domestic source of rare-earth minerals is the Mountain Pass mine in California.

www.nationalreview.com

 

[lovinthehd]

I have to think that someone asked "What's the worst that could happen?".

...or they were too busy calculating short term profit?

 

[cpp]

or they were too busy calculating short term profit?

So true. All about the money

 

[Mr._Clark]

I have to think that someone asked "What's the worst that could happen?".

 

[highfigh]

View attachment 45513

Or the feline version, where it starts as a vicious Lion or Tiger and the domesticated cat has a slice of American Cheese on its head.

 

[NINaudio]

Or the feline version, where it starts as a vicious Lion or Tiger and the domesticated cat has a slice of American Cheese on its head.

Except that domestic cats are descended were domesticated from the African wildcat, Felis silvestris lybica, not lions and tigers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Except that domestic cats are descended from the African wildcat, Felis silvestris lybica, not lions and tigers.

Maybe the two have a common ancestor in evolution time? We may have a link to them in evolutionary time. Hell, we all go back to the first molecule that started life.

 

[NINaudio]

Maybe the two have a common ancestor in evolution time? We may have a link to them in evolutionary time. Hell, we all go back to the first molecule that started life.

Yes, if you go back far enough every species will eventually have a common ancestor, but that wasn't the statement though...

Edit: I guess I could have said domesticated from instead of descended from.

 

[Trell]

Yes, if you go back far enough every species will eventually have a common ancestor, but that wasn't the statement though...

Edit: I guess I could have said domesticated from instead of descended from.

This remind me of a program I once saw about a long Russian experiment of domesticating the fox. By using "tameability" as a selection criteria for many generations of foxes they where able to tame them and act more like other domestic animals. Interestingly, other things changed as well like more drooping ears like dogs.

BBC Earth | Environment, Climate Change, AI, Food, Health, Social, & Technology

As we face the world’s greatest environmental challenges, BBC Earth brings you solutions in psychology, food, climate change, health, social trends, and technology that can make the world a more sustainable place.

www.bbc.com