Opinions on Mcintosh c2600 + mc452 upgrade

[daniele767676]

Hello all,

I would appreciate your opinion on the following:

I am thinking of upgrading my Parasound P6 + A21 (powering a set of SF Sonetto V). The P6 acts as a HT Passthrough for my Marantz 8802

I love a warm, engaging sound (listen to jazz, classical, soft rock at 75 dB) from hi res flacs.

Already have a Mac c47 in another system and love it's warm and detailed sound

I am thinking to make the jump to a tube c2600 preamp and mc452 (overkill?)
The c2600 has got a good HT Passthrough which makes it perhaps one of the few tubes preamp fitting the bill.

Have a deal for 3 year old units at 10k USD which seems too good to pass.
I cannot audition, so opinions?

Thank you!

 

[highfigh]

If you want to drop ten grand without auditioning it, that's up to you- I would never do that.

FWIW, 'warm' usually means that something is lacking although it can tame bright speakers and extremely reflective rooms. I have an A23 and it's not bright- a local dealer considers it 'neutral to warm' and they sell Audio Research, Sonus Faber and other brands that don't lean toward bright-sounding.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wouldn't want to buy different electronics, let alone $10k worth, chasing some sort of baked in eq or sound signature myself. If 10k was burning a hole in my pocket I'd get better speakers first.

 

[daniele767676]

Thank you for the prompt feedback,

I appreciate different points of view, but please consider that my question was specific to the electronics involved. I have no intention to change speakers, in fact these are only 6 months old as I just upgraded from SF Chamaleon Ts.

Also, perhaps I should have added a little bit of perspective to make my question more relevant.
I am very sensitive to treble hardness (as I also suffer from Tinnitus).
All my opinions are based on absolute subjectivity and my experience is that different people can have completely different reactions to the same system.
In my first home, I fought against my B&W CM10s2 connected to Emotiva XSP1 and XPA2: the sound was brittle, hard and edgy for me. Ditching the XPA2 for a Parasound A21+ helped somewhat, but it was only until I upgraded the XSP1 to a Mcintosh c47 that the light bulb went off: beautiful, creamy, gorgeous sound.
(I did experiment with an Antherm STR preamp which was a clinical, analytical disappointment, as well as Rotel RC1590 which was noisy, too warm and veiled).

For my second home I decided to try something different with Sonus Faber, and I was very pleased with their round, warm, albeit slightly boring sound. At first they were connected to a Marantz 8802/Parasound A21, and like any AVR the 2ch sound was just flat, uninspiring.

As I added the P6 and a Cambridge 851N for streaming, as well as a wonderful Doge 7 DAC, things really took off..

Whilst the c2600 and mc452 are a little bit of a shot in the dark, I had ample opportunities to listen to Mcintosh gear and with any speaker, in any setup I just found the sound lush, creamy, pleasant and a delight to my treble-sensitive ears.

So, please do share any expriences and opinions on the Macs in questions.

Thank you,

Daniele

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think what everyone is saying is that you shouldn't be hearing different sound signatures from any of your amps, not even the blue-cheese Emotiva.

If you think you heard all these different sounds, then it's probably just placebo.

I do understand that you want amps that are considered "high-end", not "cheap-in". I am the same way. I don't want to buy anything that I consider cheap and lower quality.

But whether the $10K pre-owned McIntosh electronics are worth the money is so subjective. Most of us don't think it's worth it. But only you can determine its worth.

 

[Pogre]

Also, perhaps I should have added a little bit of perspective to make my question more relevant.
I am very sensitive to treble hardness (as I also suffer from Tinnitus).

I suffer from tinnitus as well. What that means is I cannot hear higher frequencies very well. In other words, tinnitus makes you immune to hard treble, not sensitive to it, lol

In my opinion your dissatisfaction is with those speakers. If I had 10k to spend that's where I'd put it. Get some new speakers that are known to have a warm sound signature. Also, I'd get a second diagnosis on that tinnitus. Symptoms do not include sensitivity to treble. It's the complete opposite.

 

[daniele767676]

Not to derail the thread, but I have spent 10 years upgrading through different gear and making my considerations with friends in the same hobby.

I could not disagree more, in my experience the sonic differences of equipment are very marked.
The most significant differences I noticed are with source and preamp components. Power amps provided also marked difference but not in such night-and-day as source and preamps.

I use my pianist daughter as a final judge, as she has an excellent ear but no idea about equipment.

I remember spending a month between a Marantz 8005 vs an Oppo 105 as CD spinners, and they were as different as chocolate and vanilla.

Spent two months with the Anthem STR pre, the Rotel RC1590 and the Emotiva XPS in the house and they made my system sound very, very different indeed.

So, to my ears and in my experience the sonic differences between devices can be quite remarkable.

(as for tinnitus, mine is specific at 6,000HZ can ear perfectly anything lower or higher. Unlike you, hard treble does excite and irritate my tinnitus. The SF are great for that, and am very happy with them).

 

[lovinthehd]

Well good luck with hearing (and your hearing in general) something different in every electronic gismo....certainly not my experience let alone spending 10 years getting something I like....

 

[Pogre]

Not to derail the thread, but I have spent 10 years upgrading through different gear and making my considerations with friends in the same hobby.

I could not disagree more, in my experience the sonic difference of equipment are very marked.
The most significant differences I noticed are with source and preamp components. Power amps provided also marked difference but not in such night-and-day as source and preamps.

I use my pianist daughter as a final judge, as she has an excellent ear but no idea about equipment.

I remember spending a month between a Marantz 8005 vs an Oppo 105 as CD spinners, and they were as different as chocolate and vanilla.

Spent two months with the Anthem STR pre, the Rotel RC1590 and the Emotiva XPS in the house and they made my system sound very, very different indeed.

So, to my ears and in my experience the sonic differences between devices can be quite remarkable.

Did you do DBT and level match? Instant switching? There's a little bit of science behind what you're describing and DBTs have shown those differences people hear disappear when they don't know which is which. Check this out...

Matrix HiFi --> Blind testing high end full equipments

 

[daniele767676]

Yes, always do level match testing (microphone) and invite friends for A/B blind.

Some pieces of gear sound different enough that just letting my family spend half an hour with them makes them go "wow", although they are completely unaware of what changed.

At the end of the day it depends on the hobby: I feel enormous differences between similar sport cars, or different pairs of skis in the same category. Viceversa could not tell between a 500$ and a 5,000$ Drive at the golf club.

It depends on a) sensitivity b) passion for a specific hobby c) experience d) other....

 

[highfigh]

Thank you for the prompt feedback,

I appreciate different points of view, but please consider that my question was specific to the electronics involved. I have no intention to change speakers, in fact these are only 6 months old as I just upgraded from SF Chamaleon Ts.

Also, perhaps I should have added a little bit of perspective to make my question more relevant.
I am very sensitive to treble hardness (as I also suffer from Tinnitus).
All my opinions are based on absolute subjectivity and my experience is that different people can have completely different reactions to the same system.
In my first home, I fought against my B&W CM10s2 connected to Emotiva XSP1 and XPA2: the sound was brittle, hard and edgy for me. Ditching the XPA2 for a Parasound A21+ helped somewhat, but it was only until I upgraded the XSP1 to a Mcintosh c47 that the light bulb went off: beautiful, creamy, gorgeous sound.
(I did experiment with an Antherm STR preamp which was a clinical, analytical disappointment, as well as Rotel RC1590 which was noisy, too warm and veiled).

For my second home I decided to try something different with Sonus Faber, and I was very pleased with their round, warm, albeit slightly boring sound. At first they were connected to a Marantz 8802/Parasound A21, and like any AVR the 2ch sound was just flat, uninspiring.

As I added the P6 and a Cambridge 851N for streaming, as well as a wonderful Doge 7 DAC, things really took off..

Whilst the c2600 and mc452 are a little bit of a shot in the dark, I had ample opportunities to listen to Mcintosh gear and with any speaker, in any setup I just found the sound lush, creamy, pleasant and a delight to my treble-sensitive ears.

So, please do share any expriences and opinions on the Macs in questions.

Thank you,

Daniele

I don't know which Sonus speakers you had, but the ones I heard with Audio Research fed by a Moon server was nothing close to 'boring'. OTOH, they retail for more than $13K, so.....

Have you tried using the tone controls? They're included for a reason.

 

[daniele767676]

Sorry, boring was in relation to the b&w cm10 which are very lively.
And it was meant as a compliment.

The electronic you mention also are very, very high quality so I am sure they were making those SF sing at their best.

Either way, was hoping to get some opinions on the electronics I posted, ideally from anybody who either owns them or auditioned them

So back to the topic at hand please ....

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, always do level match testing (microphone) and invite friends for A/B blind.

Some pieces of gear sound different enough that just letting my family spend half an hour with them makes them go "wow", although they are completely unaware of what changed.

At the end of the day it depends on the hobby: I feel enormous differences between similar sport cars, or different pairs of skis in the same category. Viceversa could not tell between a 500$ and a 5,000$ Drive at the golf club.

It depends on a) sensitivity b) passion for a specific hobby c) experience d) other....

How do you do the quick switching while level matched?

 

[Pogre]

Sorry, boring was in relation to the b&w cm10 which are very lively.
And it was meant as a compliment.

The electronic you mention also are very, very high quality so I am sure they were making those SF sing at their best.

Either way, was hoping to get some opinions on the electronics I posted, ideally from anybody who either owns them or auditioned them

So back to the topic at hand please ....

It depends on a) sensitivity b) passion for a specific hobby c) experience d) other....

You've stumbled onto a site filled with people who are very passionate and experienced about audio and have been through the wringer with electronics. Most of us feel they make little or no difference as long as competently built and designed, and are being used within their safe operating ranges. Tube amps are a bit different and are known to impart a warmth to the sound by adding pleasant sounding distortion. Most of us here prefer neutral and accurate over distortion so...

We have maybe a couple of people here with tube amps they use regularly, but by and large this is a solid state, objective, scientifically biased forum.

 

[daniele767676]

I set and record the levels for each component with microphone

Use the same source and songs.

It takes 2 mins to change and reconnect a preamp (sometimes less, always good to have a friend)

If evaluating different sources it is even easier, just switch to the right input takes a few seconds.

Aren't we going off topic?

 

[Pogre]

Aren't we going off topic?

I tried to explain above, and I believe it's on topic....

You're not likely to talk to anyone here who has that amp. Most of us don't really do tube amps of any kind. Just good ol' neutral, accurate and undistorted solid state.

 

[daniele767676]

Fair point.

By the way, the Mc452 is a SS amp

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even if I could hear something different in every amp and preamp perfectly level-matched, it would still be my opinion vs someone else's opinion.

Oh, yeah, I think ATI amps sound the most creamy and delicious. But Legacy Audio amps sound strikingly luscious and aromatic. Both have such sweet chocolaty highs and exquisite velvety midrange. And just, oh, heavenly thunderous-Thor-like lightning quick bass.

 

[lovinthehd]

LOL no, 2 minutes is not quick switching, let alone going into the blind part.....but good luck. If your hearing is so challenged with differences, why would you take the word of someone else's experience at all?

 

[PENG]

Hello all,

I would appreciate your opinion on the following:

I am thinking of upgrading my Parasound P6 + A21 (powering a set of SF Sonetto V). The P6 acts as a HT Passthrough for my Marantz 8802

I love a warm, engaging sound (listen to jazz, classical, soft rock at 75 dB) from hi res flacs.

Already have a Mac c47 in another system and love it's warm and detailed sound

I am thinking to make the jump to a tube c2600 preamp and mc452 (overkill?)
The c2600 has got a good HT Passthrough which makes it perhaps one of the few tubes preamp fitting the bill.

Have a deal for 3 year old units at 10k USD which seems too good to pass.
I cannot audition, so opinions?

Thank you!

I have a A21 so I know it is not an amp that would sound "harsh" if used within its limit. The amp is just neutral, or transparent. The Mc452 should have lower distortions, but I am sure both have low enough distortions such that in a blind test, very few people (if any) would be able to tell which one they are listening to if both are driven to well below their limits.

The C2600 is a different story. It has excellent specs for a tube preamp, but it may just have high enough distortions to make it sound a little different under some conditions, to some people. So if you have already heard it and thought it sounded warm (one that you like), then it probably is better for you than the P6.

Mc's warranty is only 3 years right? If so, you may want to find out if you can purchase an extended warranty. USD10K may see like a good deal, but only if the pairs are in perfect conditions.