bailouts

[Dude#1279435]

I'm watching a documentary and they mentioned the 2008 economic crisis with the banks etc. At first I use to believe you bail out the wealthy because they employ people, but that gets into "trickle down" economics to which I believe is a fallacy. Maybe job growth, but not necessarily raises. When people criticize smaller unemployment job numbers, I have to laugh because at least they're employment enough. If you want more than a job that doesn't require a HS diploma than you need training or schooling. So it really doesn't seem like you can complain. It's a good thing irregardless. It's like saying I want more, but I shouldn't have to do more.

Anyway, I think gov't bails out large corps because if they just give it to the people well that's not creating jobs. Are they just bailing them out because they lobby for them, or is there something to what I'm saying?

Edit: the reason I agree with the 9-11 bailout is I think related to infrastructure. Had they not, the whole markets dependent on the airlines comes crashing down I assume. Well it did anyway, sort of, but gov't gave them money to get started back up much sooner.

 

[lp85253]

I'm watching a documentary and they mentioned the 2008 economic crisis with the banks etc. At first I use to believe you bail out the wealthy because they employ people, but that gets into "trickle down" economics to which I believe is a fallacy. Maybe job growth, but not necessarily raises. When people criticize smaller unemployment job numbers, I have to laugh because at least they're employment enough. If you want more than a job that doesn't require a HS diploma than you need training or schooling. So it really doesn't seem like you can complain. It's a good thing irregardless. It's like saying I want more, but I shouldn't have to do more.

Anyway, I think gov't bails out large corps because if they just give it to the people well that's not creating jobs. Are they just bailing them out because they lobby for them, or is there something to what I'm saying?

Edit: the reason I agree with the 9-11 bailout is I think related to infrastructure. Had they not, the whole markets dependent on the airlines comes crashing down I assume. Well it did anyway, sort of, but gov't gave them money to get started back up much sooner.

The thing about Airlines bailouts..they did nothing but shelter the rich from hardship, long term anyway..does anybody with active brain cells really buy into the thought that people wouldn't fly?.. The best way to handle that would have been to let the industry re organize and give the airline employees direct compensation while leaving the stockholder level management fend for themselves.. But since corporations run our government it was done ass backward...

 

[highfigh]

The thing about Airlines bailouts..they did nothing but shelter the rich from hardship, long term anyway..does anybody with active brain cells really buy into the thought that people wouldn't fly?.. The best way to handle that would have been to let the industry re organize and give the airline employees direct compensation while leaving the stockholder level management fend for themselves.. But since corporations run our government it was done ass backward...

Fear prevents a lot of activities.

 

[lp85253]

Fear prevents a lot of activities.

Temporarily.. The long term health of air travel is: that's how we get from point a to point b.. Trains and ships are a bit slow for today's traveler... The Airlines, in some form will go on..

 

[lovinthehd]

Being from the logistics industry....I think cargo is the main use of transportation compared to passenger, and is helping keep aircraft flying too. We've learned to work from home and zoom....travel will likely take a bit of a hit there if it still gets the job done. As to the need/benefits of bailouts, its like economics generally....lots of voodoo involved. Like thinking the stock market is sane....

I think in our type of economy there does seem to be a benefit from bailouts, altho there will always be the problem of who gets it. Certainly the grab for loans in the first stimulus under the swamp thing didn't seem to go so well. I was just conversing with a buddy who makes too much to get a payment (nor does he need it, he owns his own business and they've kept busy all thru covid), and he knows someone else who makes even more but got checks. He doesn't think they're doing that much magic with their tax returns. We're not well setup to determine the most in need....

 

[Mikado463]

The thing about Airlines bailouts..they did nothing but shelter the rich from hardship, long term anyway..does anybody with active brain cells really buy into the thought that people wouldn't fly?.. The best way to handle that would have been to let the industry re organize and give the airline employees direct compensation while leaving the stockholder level management fend for themselves.. But since corporations run our government it was done ass backward...

As a retired railroader I was on board and part of the largest bankruptcy / bailout (of the time) with regards to the Penn Central and subsequent Conrail formation. It's important to note that while we took large sums of taxpayer money it was paid back. Conrail emerged, grew ever stronger and eventually was divided up between the NS and CSX. Two Class 1 railroads that have dramatically improved their respective operating ratios ever since, even while undergoing the largest non-funded Gov't mandate for PTC (positive train control) to the tune of 12 billion plus for all 7 Class 1 railroads in North America.

 

[lp85253]

Being from the logistics industry....I think cargo is the main use of transportation compared to passenger, and is helping keep aircraft flying too. We've learned to work from home and zoom....travel will likely take a bit of a hit there if it still gets the job done. As to the need/benefits of bailouts, its like economics generally....lots of voodoo involved. Like thinking the stock market is sane....

I think in our type of economy there does seem to be a benefit from bailouts, altho there will always be the problem of who gets it. Certainly the grab for loans in the first stimulus under the swamp thing didn't seem to go so well. I was just conversing with a buddy who makes too much to get a payment (nor does he need it, he owns his own business and they've kept busy all thru covid), and he knows someone else who makes even more but got checks. He doesn't think they're doing that much magic with their tax returns. We're not well setup to determine the most in need....

straight up stimulus checks to low income / working class proved to be the best *stimulus* so far .. the businesses that stayed open here had record revenue this past summer.. it directly correlated to the checks being distributed...edit: cargo is built into the equation now as well .. amazon will get their products to buyers one way or another.. back in 2009 the airlines had higher % of travelers vs products that needed to ship right away..

 

[lovinthehd]

Believe the auto companies bailouts were paid back, too.

 

[lp85253]

As a retired railroader I was on board and part of the largest bankruptcy / bailout (of the time) with regards to the Penn Central and subsequent Conrail formation. It's important to note that while we took large sums of taxpayer money it was paid back. Conrail emerged, grew ever stronger and eventually was divided up between the NS and CSX. Two Class 1 railroads that have dramatically improved their respective operating ratios ever since, even while undergoing the largest non-funded Gov't mandate for PSR (precision scheduled railroading) to the tune of 12 billion plus for all 7 Class 1 railroads in North America.

rail travel is a bit different... not so built into the infrastructure nationally...

 

[lovinthehd]

straight up stimulus checks to low income / working class proved to be the best *stimulus* so far .. the businesses that stayed open here had record revenue this past summer.. it directly correlated to the checks being distributed...

I've spent my checks on a variety of things and some charity as well. I didn't "need" them but wasn't about to not take them after all I've paid in over the years and got a bunch of stupid wars subsidizing oil interests to show for it.

 

[lovinthehd]

rail travel is a bit different... not so built into the infrastructure nationally...

I'm now wondering just how important a piece personal/vacation travel by air is vs business in that pie, then again vs cargo (where am sure railroads and ocean vessels beat hell out of passenger travel).

 

[Mikado463]

rail travel is a bit different... not so built into the infrastructure nationally...

for people(Amtrak) perhaps but with regards to the freight network it is HUGE !

 

[lp85253]

I've spent my checks on a variety of things and some charity as well. I didn't "need" them but wasn't about to not take them after all I've paid in over the years and got a bunch of stupid wars subsidizing oil interests to show for it.

i need every penny i can get .. i spend some of the check , but save most .. i live in a situation that prevents me from qualifying for the *vast majority* of non subsidized housing (1 b.r. apt.) here in phx.. i'm not playing some type of "victim game" , i'm close to retirement age with poverty level disability income.. it is what it is , i "could go back to work" if i needed to , risking further damage to my body ( i have cerebral palsy, and *not* a mild case).. it would be nice if the government would just give *disabled people* the money to live rather than funnel the "welfare" through big corporations and 501c(3)s so that rich folks still get the majority of the bennies the takers are often blamed for.. for instance .. subsidized housing is often run by 501c(3)s with the disabled / low income folks paying 30% of income while the government gives the rest straight to the charity .. at top market value.(for mostly crappy apts that are overpriced, this is a nice way for badly run housing to survive)
..food stamps fuel the subsidized food industry (corn ect) ..and the end user (taker) is always the 1st one to lose benefits...

 

[cpp]

Believe the auto companies bailouts were paid back, too.

I think I read in Marketplace all but $9 billion of the $80 billion that went to General Motors and Chrysler was paid back.

 

[lovinthehd]

I see this story about losing money on stock creating larger taxpayer subsidy essentially. https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industry-bailout-gm-ford-chrysler-3305670

 

[Mikado463]

I think I read in Marketplace all but $9 billion of the $80 billion that went to General Motors and Chrysler was paid back.

what is so interesting and depressing at the same time is that we are now talking 'stimulus' dollars in the trillions !

 

[lp85253]

what is so interesting and depressing at the same time is that we are now talking 'stimulus' dollars in the trillions !

as long as it goes directly to the people it's in "the right hands" , wouldn't you agree?.. that's were it started out...

 

[lp85253]

I'm now wondering just how important a piece personal/vacation travel by air is vs business in that pie, then again vs cargo (where am sure railroads and ocean vessels beat hell out of passenger travel).

vacations are optional by air.. lots of us live close to lots of nice vacation areas that we under use as travelers...

 

[Mikado463]

as long as it goes directly to the people it's in "the right hands"

to that I agree and pray ........

 

[lovinthehd]

vacations are optional by air.. lots of us live close to lots of nice vacation areas that we under use as travelers...

I drive to all of them now (and basically live in one)....hate commercial flying and haven't done it in many years; it's worse than a bus if you have to fly economy Can we afford to have carriers die? Or will we have to revert to a nationally subsidized airline like so many others?

Sorry to hear about your struggles, hope you don't have to return to the work place....

Not a fan of corporate socialism but it's fairly entrenched with these guys who suck up their contributions....lol drain the swamp.