Amplifiers and point of diminishing returns

[Pogre]

see, dreams do come true !

Ha! I guess so!

Really tho, even with cost no object I think one needs look no further than Salk Sound for speakers. I've drooled over the SS 9.5 so many times, but there are a few others too.

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

I can't get the site to work right now. Keeps timing out. Anyone else having problems?

 

[Mikado463]

yep, did for me as well

 

[Pogre]

ETA for the Horizon?

Still the end of March to my knowledge. I know Dina hedges her bets a little with the ETAs tho. She told me she always shoots for worst case scenario and if they show up early, great. When I ordered my towers they were ready to ship a couple of weeks early. Then of course one tower showed up a day before the other... just to torture me for another 24 hours.

 

[Mikado463]

Ha! I guess so!

Really tho, even with cost no object I think one needs look no further than Salk Sound for speakers. I've drooled over the SS 9.5 so many times, but there are a few others too.

View attachment 44570

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

I can't get the site to work right now. Keeps timing out. Anyone else having problems?

Good looking speaker for sure ! The last timeI was out to RMAF (10 years ago) I can't remember if Salk was there or not ? Another favorite of mine in a similar price range is Vienna Acoustics.

 

[ryanosaur]

Ha! I guess so!

Really tho, even with cost no object I think one needs look no further than Salk Sound for speakers. I've drooled over the SS 9.5 so many times, but there are a few others too.

View attachment 44570

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

I can't get the site to work right now. Keeps timing out. Anyone else having problems?

Here's the link to the 9.5s from the 2019 CAS thread:

CAS 2019

Perhaps, but it was 20 years ago when I heard them. This is a pic of what the tweeter looked like. Those speakers look a lot like the ones I heard and my memory of the tweeter is almost exactly what I saw. It does look like it would produce a lot of uv... He didn't make very many of them...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Pogre]

Here's the link to the 9.5s from the 2019 CAS thread:

CAS 2019

Perhaps, but it was 20 years ago when I heard them. This is a pic of what the tweeter looked like. Those speakers look a lot like the ones I heard and my memory of the tweeter is almost exactly what I saw. It does look like it would produce a lot of uv... He didn't make very many of them...

forums.audioholics.com

I remember that! Thank you. Looks like Salk's site is back up again too. Musta been a hiccup.

Have you listened to the Satori Be tweeter? If so, how do they compare to the RAALs? I don't think I've ever heard a Be tweeter before but I know the good ones are top of the mark, right up there with RAAL.

 

[ryanosaur]

Have you listened to the Satori Be tweeter? If so, how do they compare to the RAALs? I don't think I've ever heard a Be tweeter before but I know the good ones are top of the mark, right up there with RAAL.

It's hard to say from just that one experience. I think I described it, either in that thread or somewhere else, as being almost a distillation (overall SQ) of what I know in the Phil3s... so if it's an improvement its in the subtle clarity and detail. I suspect where it may excel compared to the 70-10 or 70-20 is in vertical dispersion.
Raals seem to be a little limited in that regard, but with the two 70 series tweeters, Raal also sends out those little foam pads that you can attach to the top and bottom, adjusting narrower as needed, to actually increase the vertical dispersion. I have not played with them on my Phil3's 70-10s as Dennis recommends against for his taste.

 

[Mr._Clark]

It's hard to say from just that one experience. I think I described it, either in that thread or somewhere else, as being almost a distillation (overall SQ) of what I know in the Phil3s... so if it's an improvement its in the subtle clarity and detail. I suspect where it may excel compared to the 70-10 or 70-20 is in vertical dispersion.
Raals seem to be a little limited in that regard, but with the two 70 series tweeters, Raal also sends out those little foam pads that you can attach to the top and bottom, adjusting narrower as needed, to actually increase the vertical dispersion. I have not played with them on my Phil3's 70-10s as Dennis recommends against for his taste.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is increased vertical dispersion really a good thing in most situations? If your listening position is fixed (and believe me, my arse is fixed when once I'm on the sofa!) doesn't vertical dispersion just lead to more reflected sound?

 

[Pogre]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but is increased vertical dispersion really a good thing in most situations? If your listening position is fixed (and believe me, my arse is fixed when once I'm on the sofa!) doesn't vertical dispersion just lead to more reflected sound?

I was gonna say that I'm with you on vertical dispersion not being a huge deal for me either because I too have a fixed position, but I hadn't thought of the difference it might make wrt reflections. Hm.

 

[ryanosaur]

@Mr._Clark @Pogre
While extreme dispersion on the vertical axis isn't necessarily something sought after, if you look at the vertical dispersion plots done by Shady and Erin in each of their respective BMR reviews, you will see how limited the "window" for good performance is. While the Raal and BMR drivers throw magnificently wide dispersion wavefronts, the Raal is very limited vertically with a distinct need to have them at, or just slightly above ear level for best SQ.
I have not seen a vertical plot for the Satori BE, but being a Dome I suspect it will have slightly better performance in that regard.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that we should have a vertical response that matches the horizontal, but let's face it, having great SQ at 15º off-axis above or below would not be a bad thing vs 15º total off-axis wiggle room. This is the difference between head-in-a-vice listening or the freedom to sit up, stand up, etc.

 

[NINaudio]

It's just the opposite!
Many reasonable & accurate amplifiers are not designed to drive some popular speakers.
The Stereophile loudspeaker test panels sometimes have a statement about a speaker being a demanding load.
When a speaker is a very low impedance, or a high capacitance or inductive load, many amplifiers are not a good choice.

Definitions matter, and I stand by my statement. Synergy is defined as "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." That is not the same as having an amp that can properly drive difficult speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Definitions matter, and I stand by my statement. Synergy is defined as "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." That is not the same as having an amp that can properly drive difficult speakers.

This.
An amp being capable of handling difficult electrical behavior in a speaker... 3.2 ohms, 45ºphase angle @60Hz... is not Synergy.

Saying that Marantz Amps really open up the Sound of Boston Acoustics (or NAD with Paradigm) is an example of "Synergy."
And I don't believe for a second that either of those examples is anything more than marketing masturbation and audio-fool fluff.

 

[Joe B]

The McIntosh/B&W combo the OP dreams of would be a nice set up. But if I had that kind of money to throw at power and speakers, I'd sink it into a pair of active ATC SCMSLT 50's. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Mr._Clark]

@Mr._Clark @Pogre
While extreme dispersion on the vertical axis isn't necessarily something sought after, if you look at the vertical dispersion plots done by Shady and Erin in each of their respective BMR reviews, you will see how limited the "window" for good performance is. While the Raal and BMR drivers throw magnificently wide dispersion wavefronts, the Raal is very limited vertically with a distinct need to have them at, or just slightly above ear level for best SQ.
I have not seen a vertical plot for the Satori BE, but being a Dome I suspect it will have slightly better performance in that regard.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that we should have a vertical response that matches the horizontal, but let's face it, having great SQ at 15º off-axis above or below would not be a bad thing vs 15º total off-axis wiggle room. This is the difference between head-in-a-vice listening or the freedom to sit up, stand up, etc.

The sine of 15 degrees is .2588. At 10 feet this is a little over 2 and a half feet. My BMRs are over 10 feet away from my listening position (I'm not sure of the exact distance). I've never noticed any problems with regards to narrow vertical dispersion.

Part of the reason I ask is that my perception is that the location of the BMR's is less noticeable than that of other speakers I own. In other words, my perception of the sound as coming from a particular point source is less pronounced with the BMRs. I have wondered why this is, and several possible explanations come to mind.

The first is that my ears and/or my brain are malfunctioning (I can't rule this out), and the BMRs are not actually any different than other speakers

Okay, all seriousness aside, I've wondered if one factor is reduced sound reflection off the ceiling and floor due to the narrow vertical dispersion. It seems to me that the reflected sound would arrive from different directions and at different times, and one's brain may detect this and interpret the differences between direct and reflected sound in a way that is perceived to indicate a point source for the sound.

I've also wondered if the off axis accuracy of the BMRs plays a role in this as well. If the off axis sound is in phase and also has very little distortion, it seems to me that the reflected sound will have a delay, but it will have very little distortion. Perhaps this also affects the overall quality of the sound. Even if the on axis sound for a given speaker is good, in a typical room there will be some reflection off the walls. If the off axis sound is distorted and out of phase to begin with, it seems to me that there will be a significant amount of reflected off axis sound that basically just sucks in every way.

I'm okay with it if you conclude the first explanation is the correct one.

 

[Mr._Clark]

I’m

Definitions matter, and I stand by my statement. Synergy is defined as "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." That is not the same as having an amp that can properly drive difficult speakers.

I’m with ya nails. The fact that amps may be inadequate does not mean an adequate amp provides synergy

 

[Swerd]

@Mr._Clark @Pogre
While extreme dispersion on the vertical axis isn't necessarily something sought after, if you look at the vertical dispersion plots done by Shady and Erin in each of their respective BMR reviews, you will see how limited the "window" for good performance is. While the Raal and BMR drivers throw magnificently wide dispersion wavefronts, the Raal is very limited vertically with a distinct need to have them at, or just slightly above ear level for best SQ.
I have not seen a vertical plot for the Satori BE, but being a Dome I suspect it will have slightly better performance in that regard.
Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that we should have a vertical response that matches the horizontal, but let's face it, having great SQ at 15º off-axis above or below would not be a bad thing vs 15º total off-axis wiggle room. This is the difference between head-in-a-vice listening or the freedom to sit up, stand up, etc.

I've always felt that complaints of the RAAL ribbon's lack of vertical dispersion are off-base.

• What is perceived as the ribbon tweeter's lack of vertical dispersion is more likely the interference between the mid-range and tweeter in the frequency range where they both operate. As you move up or down, you will notice a dip in the frequency response, a null, where the interference is negative. This isn't due to an inherent flaw of a tweeter, but is a necessary characteristic of a 3-way design. A dome tweeter, instead of a ribbon, in this 3-way design will be no different. Similar things happen in all 3-ways or smaller 2-ways.
  
  
• Lack of dispersion can only be noticed if you move up or down while listening. I don't have a telescoping neck. It's much easier to move sideways, but difficult to move up or down. Wide horizontal dispersion in a speaker is a great advantage, but I don't see vertical treble dispersion as a problem worth noting. If I stand up while listening, I expect to hear that interference null.
  
  
• On web sites like ASR, I find many people who tout the controlled directivity (CD, or in reality, the lack of dispersion) of a wave-guide mounted tweeter as an advantage. These same people also complain of a ribbon tweeter's lack of vertical dispersion. Why is a wave-guide mounted tweeter's lack of dispersion considered good, when a ribbon tweeter's perceived lack of vertical dispersion is considered a problem?

 

[ryanosaur]

Wow. I didn't think this would be a can'o'worms!

All things considered, between my BMRs and the Phil3s, I have no complaints! Like I said, I haven't even played with the little foam pads to tune the Vertical Dispersion on the 70-10s.

That said, I have been surprised by that particular criticism directed at the BMR Monitors by other people.

@Swerd
Totally get what you are saying in point 1 above and I look forward to continue my learning so I can better understand this!
For the other two points, I agree completely. Especially about the ASR/CD comment in point 3.

 

[Mikado463]

Definitions matter, and I stand by my statement. Synergy is defined as "the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects." That is not the same as having an amp that can properly drive difficult speakers.

nit-picky little thing aren't you kid, LOL !

point taken, but I'll stand by my comment that speaker / amp marriage is of importance

 

[Pogre]

nit-picky little thing aren't you kid, LOL !

point taken, but I'll stand by my comment that speaker / amp marriage is of importance

Replace "nit-picky" with "correct" and your statement is closer to the mark. Also, "kid"? Is that meant to be insulting or something? C'mon man, I thought you were better than that. You're the one who called him out. Don't be sore because he's right...

 

[Mikado463]

Replace "nit-picky" with "correct" and your statement is closer to the mark. Also, "kid"? Is that meant to be insulting or something? C'mon man, I thought you were better than that. You're the one who called him out. Don't be sore because he's right...

LOL, when you're old like me, you're all kids !

As for the 'call out' go back and read my post, you'll see I used the words 'synergy / compatibility', whatever. It was quite obvious he was making his point to the Op that amplification means little and he should concentrate on 'speakers'. He also tried to make it known that 'many' don't buy into that hogwash around here, well I've been around long enough and have experienced enough different speaker / amp combinations to know I'm not part of the 'many' !

Now , for the absolute and correct definition/ use of the word synergy ......... kid, I stand corrected !