MSO- Multi Sub Optimizer Beginners Thread

[Wellz]

Hi all, thanking you all in advance for any advice and comments on the below, and look forward to being a part of the community moving forwards.

I've spent days reading about how to setup twin subs with REW and use the time alignment tool and never managed to get it working properly. I then read about MSO and after reading the tutorial realised this was a much better option for setting up my subs.

However after getting amazing before and after results with the graphs, when I loaded the setttings to my MiniDSP and re-performed a sweep in REW I discovered that the results were nothing like the prediction.

On further reading it looks like I have used the wrong timing references with REW. I used the loopback timing function and not acoustic as mentioned here https://www.andyc.diy-audio-engineering.org/mso/html/measuring.html (I'm using a USB Umik-1)

However after reading this several times I'm really unsure now on how to actually perform the measurements for my twin sub 7.1 system.

The guide it links to no longer exists. Does anyone have a dummies guide on how to do it? E.g which speakers, which sweep frequency range etc.

Also if anyone could clarify the optimisation frequency ranges for MSO that'd be great, as after reading the tutorial I'm just using the default settings, as I'm still confused on this. Also the tutorial settings can't be used as they are outside the allowable ranges in MSO.

Thanks again
Alex

Hello, Alex, and welcome to the group. It seems like there's a lot to unpack here since your questions deal with both REW and MSO. I'll start by saying that both programs have a bit of a learning curve which take some time to adjust to. Neither one of them is a quick fix, that is, until you learn how to properly use them. I'm going to assume that your overall goal is to maximize the use of multiple subs in your room in order to get the best bass response across multiple seats. One mistake I made when I first started to use multiple subs was to think that the subs would all work independently of each other to fill the need, I didn't realize at the time, that the purpose was to ultimately have all of the subs working together to simulate one larger and more efficient sub. Once I understood that, it cleared up the reason for needing to align them to each other first, and how once that was achieved, we could then move on to integrating them with the rest of our speakers. Therefore, in my opinion, one of the best approaches is to use something like a MiniDSP and send only one sub out signal to it from your AVR. Once configured, your AVR will now be "seeing" just one subwoofer that it has to integrate with the rest of your speakers. For this reason, I also suggest that you start with the SUB ONLY configuration in MSO. this will create less confusion and will allow you to simply measure the subs at each seating position without worrying about the main speakers (for now).

With that said, the recommendations in Tony's post above (with links to the article on the MiniDSP page) are good. You can also check the REW thread at AVNirvana for the latest info on REW directly from John Mulcahy who authored the REW program.
As stated above, depending on which of the MiniDSP units you are using (2x4 or 2x4HD, etc.), you'll have to set up the equalizer section in REW to match it. Per John, REW uses that info to automatically adjust the measurement files to the correct Hz setting for that Equalizer(MiniDSP unit). In The REW Preferences tab you need to set the Sample Rate to the same value that you set up your microphone to on your laptop. So if you're using a UMIK-1, you will set them both to 48 kHz.

As for MSO,
Once you have taken the measurements in REW, the latest version of REW allows you to save the file directly with the .frd extension by choosing it from a drop down window after you select "export all measurements as text" so you no longer need to manually change the name extension on the measurements before uploading them to MSO. It sounds like you already know how to properly set up MSO, so now it's just a matter of exporting the results to your MiniDSP. Good luck and let us know if you still have questions after you've read through the material.

 

[Wellz]

For reference, here is a picture of the results at the MLP in my room. Red line is all 4 subs combined without adjustments (RAW). The Black line is what MSO predicted after its computation. The Blue line is the measured response after adding the results from MSO to the MiniDSP.

 

[alexf40]

Thanks Tony and Wellz for your help here. Wellz that's an awesome result, I hope to get something similar to that.

I've read through both of those MiniDSP MSO links thank you, I’m now a little clearer. However I've tried several more attempts and am still having issues. In fact it’s gone from bad to worse and thinking I might be having an issue with the MiniDSP and will need to post on their forums.

After trying it all again, I noticed when trying to calibrate the optimised subs though the AVR that they were so quiet the autocalibration was failing. Even after resetting the MiniDSP to factory defaults it continued to do the same thing. I had to remove the MiniDSP to get the subs working again.

Thanks for your help, I’ll comment back here once I get to the bottom of the DSP issue.

 

[Wellz]

Thanks Tony and Wellz for your help here. Wellz that's an awesome result, I hope to get something similar to that.

I've read through both of those MiniDSP MSO links thank you, I’m now a little clearer. However I've tried several more attempts and am still having issues. In fact it’s gone from bad to worse and thinking I might be having an issue with the MiniDSP and will need to post on their forums.

After trying it all again, I noticed when trying to calibrate the optimised subs though the AVR that they were so quiet the autocalibration was failing. Even after resetting the MiniDSP to factory defaults it continued to do the same thing. I had to remove the MiniDSP to get the subs working again.

Thanks for your help, I’ll comment back here once I get to the bottom of the DSP issue.

That's unfortunate that the volume is an issue. I have a few ideas as to why that could be including how the subs are set prior to running the software and AVR calibration. However, I'm going to make a suggestion that I believe could help you get a solid grip on the process manually albeit without MSO (for now). I added a link to a video from HomeTheaterGurus on Youtube who does a walkthrough of the REW process for integrating subs. The video is very helpful. You might be good to go with just that process alone, and it will at least lay the ground work for then adding MSO to the mix if you need to.
Episode 7 REW multi sub setup with MiniDSP

Good Luck and report back your findings and results.

 

[alexf40]

Ok that issue was sorted, reset everything again and now it’s back up and working.

So, I'm trying to keep this simple as possible and only setup the subs from one listening position and am not worried about the mains. My biggest issue is that I have an open plan room, so I am trying to even out the response at low frequencies. (My wife couldn't tell the difference so I’m only running one measurement per channel.)

I've ran three acoustic timing sweeps in REW, from 10-200hz (512kb at 48kHz), preferences set for MiniDSP 2x4, from my laptop with HDMI and USB Umik-1. I can only sweep to 200hz as this is the highest value on my cross over on my AVR.

The three sweeps were:

1. LHS sub
2. RHS sub
3. Mains only with no subs and no crossover

Frequency range to optimise set to 20-100hz (gave myself a little play here for cross over in AVR which is set to 80hz) and the Frequency range to compute reference is on auto (99.8-199.6), which I still don't understand.

I have 5 PEQ filters, gain and delay, on both channels and polarity inversion and all pass filter on the second channel.

I've been getting predictions around ¬1.5 db error, however the example below I ran the optimisation short as didn't want to keep waiting for 30 minutes for testing.

I'm using the Biquad text export set for MiniDSP 2x4 (48kHz with 5 PEQ Channels, max gain at 12db, max delay 7.2)

I've imported the left and right hand sub biquad data to channels 1 and 2 in the MiniDSP, manually set the required delay for channel 2 and synced.

It's definitely changing the sub outputs but nowhere near what is expected so something is amiss. I just can't work out what.

I'm getting significantly different results compared to expectation.

Black and Red = individual subs before optimisation
Blue = MSO prediction
Green = After MSO settings applied in MiniDSP

 

[Tony Barrett]

As far as I understand, the main use of MSO is to even out responses across several listening positions so having only one listening position may cause trouble. There’s an old discussion with Andy on one of the forums with someone whose mic positions were too close together. I’ll try to find it and post here. However, I’m not sure that you don’t have some other issues. My actual combined response went from large peaks to mostly flat. I’ll have a more careful read of your post after a coffee and see if I can spot any further issues. Cheers

 

[Tony Barrett]

Alex. You may want to also look in this forum. Andy, the creator of MSO, posts there and may answer some questions, though obviously he can’t respond to every request. https://www.avsforum.com/threads/optimizing-subwoofers-and-integration-with-mains-multi-sub-optimizer.2103074/page-110

 

[Tony Barrett]

Just looking at your post above again, you’re trying to carry out a sub only optimisation, right? Not sure why you’re measuring the main speakers for that. I have two subs, like you, and three seating positions on a sofa, each about two feet apart. So I ran three measurements for each seating position. One for each sub and a combined sub measurement that isn’t used for the optimisation but just to check that the individual sub measurements have been imported correctly into MSO, as outlined in the minidsp Application Note. Cheers, Tony

 

[Wellz]

Ok that issue was sorted, reset everything again and now it’s back up and working.

So, I'm trying to keep this simple as possible and only setup the subs from one listening position and am not worried about the mains. My biggest issue is that I have an open plan room, so I am trying to even out the response at low frequencies. (My wife couldn't tell the difference so I’m only running one measurement per channel.)

I've ran three acoustic timing sweeps in REW, from 10-200hz (512kb at 48kHz), preferences set for MiniDSP 2x4, from my laptop with HDMI and USB Umik-1. I can only sweep to 200hz as this is the highest value on my cross over on my AVR.

The three sweeps were:

1. LHS sub
2. RHS sub
3. Mains only with no subs and no crossover

Frequency range to optimise set to 20-100hz (gave myself a little play here for cross over in AVR which is set to 80hz) and the Frequency range to compute reference is on auto (99.8-199.6), which I still don't understand.

I have 5 PEQ filters, gain and delay, on both channels and polarity inversion and all pass filter on the second channel.

I've been getting predictions around ¬1.5 db error, however the example below I ran the optimisation short as didn't want to keep waiting for 30 minutes for testing.

I'm using the Biquad text export set for MiniDSP 2x4 (48kHz with 5 PEQ Channels, max gain at 12db, max delay 7.2)

I've imported the left and right hand sub biquad data to channels 1 and 2 in the MiniDSP, manually set the required delay for channel 2 and synced.

It's definitely changing the sub outputs but nowhere near what is expected so something is amiss. I just can't work out what.

I'm getting significantly different results compared to expectation.

Black and Red = individual subs before optimisation
Blue = MSO prediction
Green = After MSO settings applied in MiniDSP


View attachment 44463

Hello again,
Glad the unit is working again.
At first glance it looks to me like your GREEN line is just showing the measured response from your MAIN Speakers WITHOUT the SUBS. Which means that you might be taking your final measurements with the MAINS set to LARGE, and this is in effect leaving the SUBS out for those measurements. Go back into the AVR settings and make sure that the Speakers are set to SMALL and the Crossover is set to 80Hz or 100Hz.

Having said that, I will try to lay out some steps for you to take to hopefully help you (and anyone else reading this) nail this. As Tony mentioned above. MSO was mainly designed with the purpose of achieving a better seat to seat consistency from your multiple subs. Andy mentions this in his posts on AVS. So at minimum, you will want to take measurements at 2 different seats.

So here is a summary of steps that I recommend:

First:
At the Subwoofers:
1. Set the Phase knob or switch to 0 (ZERO). Don't worry, MSO will figure out the proper distance needed to properly align the subs without needing to manually adjust the phase.

2. Set the Crossover knob to its highest setting to avoid the frequencies from being filtered at the sub. The AVR will take care of setting the crossover later. For now you want to run the sub crossover fully open and sweep at least 100Hz past the highest point on that Crossover. This will allow you to see where the subs cap out on the higher frequencies. You can run the sweeps from about 10hz to 300Hz and then later tell MSO which range to optimize for.

3. Make sure that you gain match your subs so that they are working at the same efficiency. This is different then level matching. Here is the difference...

With Gain Matching you are going to measure each sub under the same condition as the next. This means finding a "neutral spot" in the room away from walls (such as the middle of the room), and placing the first sub there. Then you place the measuring microphone at a fixed distance close enough from the sub to minimize the influence of the room on that measurement.
So let's say you place the mic at 8 inches from the center cone of the sub and play some pink noise at a set volume through the sub using the generator in REW. Use the SPL meter to see what the output level is from the sub (with the gain knob on the sub set to 0db). Since the mic will be close to the sub, the output reading is going to be very high, much higher then that same output reading would be if measured from the listening position. But that is not the important part. The goal is to take note of that output level reading, and then remove that first subwoofer from that measuring location, and place the next subwoofer in that same spot. Now you will measure the next sub the same way and adjust the gain knob on that sub until its output measures/matches the same as the previous one.
If you have two or more of the same subs, the gain knob position should be close on each after matching the output, but if you are using different subs, the gain knob could end up at different positions for each sub, but at least now the gain and output from each is closely matched (with minimum affect from the room, difference in location or difference in distance from the mic).
If you were to Level match instead, and you had the subs located at different locations while take the measurements, you would run the risk of over driving the subs since the location and distance from the measuring mic would be different for each, and thus affect the measured output.

4. After gain matching the subs, mark or take a picture of where the gain knob setting is on each (in case it is accidentally moved), and then move the subs back to their final location. If possible, find and place each sub in a location where each one gives you the best output and frequency response on its own. This will give you a better starting point.

Next:
At the AVR:
1. clear out the auto calibration software memory. This includes all EQ settings, distances, channel levels, etc. Since you are going to do a SUB ONLY Configuration in MSO you don't need nor do you want anything affecting the raw output from your subs.
***Also make sure that you indicate on the AVR that there is only 1 (one) Subwoofer in use.
You will send only 1 sub-out signal from the AVR to the MiniDSP, and the split that signal via the MiniDSP into the corresponding number of Subs. When this is all said and done, your AVR will read the combined subs as ONE LARGE EFFICIENT UNIT regardless of how many subs you actually have. That way, later on (post MSO) when the AVR Auto-Calibration makes adjustments to the Gain or Distance for the sub, it will be acting as if only one sub is in use, and the adjustments will affect the UNIT as a whole as opposed to each subwoofer individually.

2. Make sure that your channel level (gain) in the AVR is set to 0dB. This will also ensure that the subs are getting a clean and full signal.

3. Again, make sure you've turned off any EQ that the AVR may have... you want a clean unedited signal to pass through the AVR when you use REW to send the signal through.

4. Set your AVR to STEREO. Make sure that no other DSP mode is on such as Dolby Surround, etc.

5. Manually set the Speaker Sizes to Small and set Subwoofer to YES (or whatever your AVR displays to indicate that you are using a SUBWOOFER).
*** Also make sure that the AVR Crossover is set to its Highest setting to ensure that the subwoofers gets a full signal.
So with the Speakers set to Small, set the Crossover for the Speakers to the highest setting allowed in the AVR.

6. Now, connect your laptop via HDMI to your AVR and again make sure that the EQ and DSP mode for that input is set to STEREO per the instructions above. You also want to make sure that REW is properly set.

7. Place the UMIK-1 at the MLP (main listening position) and use the Generator in REW to send a pink noise signal to one of your Mains. Use the SPL meter to read the output level of that Main speaker at the MLP, and adjust the Volume Knob on the AVR to a level where the output of that Main is roughly 75dB. Take note of that volume setting for future reference, so that any subsequent measurements you take are under the same conditions. So if your AVR volume knob is say at -21dB for that measurement, you want to make sure that you use the same -21dB for the rest of the measurements.

Next:
At your MiniDSP:
1. Make sure that all levels are at 0 (ZERO). This includes delays, channel gains, EQ, etc.

2. Make sure all of the Polarity settings are also OFF.

3. Make sure that All Crossover Settings are Bypassed. You should see nothing but a straight line going across the graph to indicate that it is inactive.

Next: REW and MSO
Now you are ready to begin taking Measurements using REW.
1. Set your Preferences correctly with the ASIO4ALL installed.
Make sure that in the SOUND settings on the Laptop, the Playback settings are showing your AVR as your DEFAULT device. Then, under the Recording tab, Make sure that the Default Device is set to your UMIK-1 (per the MiniDSP instructions)

2. If all of the above is set properly, you can now choose your LEFT or RIGHT Main Speaker as the Timing Reference Speaker. If you choose the Left Main for the Timing Reference, then use the Right Main speaker as the channel to send the sweep through. When you send the sweep to the Right Main you will want to make sure that this speaker is disconnected so it doesn't affect the output, and also confirm that the AVR has that speaker as SMALL with a Subwoofer ON.

3. Now that you are ready to run the sweeps, you will want to run a sweep of EACH Subwoofer at the same listening location before proceeding to the next listening location. For this, you can use the MiniDSP to Mute all the subs EXCEPT for the one being measured at that time. So if you have 2 subs and 3 seats, you will set the MIC at the first listening location and take 2 measurements (one for each sub). Then you will move the MIC to the next location and do the same.
*** If you want to compare how well MSO performed, you can also take a measurement of all of the Subs combined (unmuted) at each listening location. Just make sure that you don't use those combined measurement to feed MSO data to configure. You can instead import those for PLOTTING ONLY so you can compare before and after.

4. Make sure that in REW you indicate which Equalizer you are using (MiniDSP 2x4, MiniDSP2x4HD, etc.) before you EXPORT your measurement from REW to MSO.

5. Follow the instructions for a SUB ONLY Configuration in MSO. This includes CREATING a new SUB ONLY Configuration.

6. Once setup, you can run MSO for 2 minutes just to make sure that you've set things up properly. Once confirmed, allow MSO to run for 30 minutes so it can work its magic!

7. You can import the combined raw measurements you took earlier at each listening position, and create a plot only graph with them. After MSO is done making its calculations, you can create a graph that compares the raw measurements to the MSO results. If the results are to your satisfaction, you can proceed to export the MSO results by saving the biquads for each sub and importing them to the MiniDSP, and then notating the delay and gain adjustments that MSO recommends for each sub channel, and then manually inputting them into the MiniDSP sub channels.

8. If you have successfully transferred/inputted the MSO results into your MiniDSP, you can now retake the combined measurements at each listening location using REW, and confirm that the new measured result (after configuring the MiniDSP) match the predicted results from MSO. If they do, CONGRATS!! you now have all of your subs working together as one Large and Efficient unit that provides good seat to seat consistency in the Bass Frequencies!

Final Steps:

1. Now that you have created the effect of having one large and efficient subwoofer (after properly combining them all via MSO), you can now set up your AVR properly.
*** Make sure that you reconnect the Main speaker that you disconnected earlier while taking measurements.

2. Start by placing the AVR supplied Microphone at same MLP location that you placed your UMIK-1 when using REW.

3. Run the AVR Auto-Calibration. This will allow the AVR to use the new "sub" and the rest of the speakers for its calibration.
Once the Auto calibration is completed, you may need to manually change 2 key settings. The first will be the Speaker Size that the Auto-Calibration set. Make sure you set the speakers back to Small (if the Auto-calibration set them to LARGE) so that the new Sub is allowed to work as intended.
The second change will be adjusting the Crossover setting set by the AVR Auto-Calibration. Again, manually change the Crossover in the AVR to 80hz or something close. Assuming that your speakers can all be crossed-over at the same frequency, I would set them all the same. This will again allow for the the new sub (combined subs)to work as intended across a larger frequency range.

4. Once you have made those changes, you can re-measure the MLP using REW to confirm that the bass frequencies (at least up to the Crossover point that you set) remain unchanged. If so, sit back and enjoy some music or a movie with your newly tuned setup!

Good luck!

P.S. If I missed anything, feel free to point it out, and I will edit this write up.

 

[alexf40]

Thanks @Tony Barrett, you're right I was intending on doing just the sub only configuration, but didn't realise I was doing the sub + mains. On reading through the tutorial on MSO I misread it as it was just optimising the subs but needed the mains measurement for calibration.



@Wellz, sadly I checked a few times and that green line is correct, 100% just both subs.

An absolute huge thank you for your post, it's the easiest to follow guide I've read so far, and I've realised there's a few steps I've missed out or not done correctly and some I'm not clear on.

What I did wrong:

1. When gain matching my subs, I set them to 0db in the AVR but didn't remove the engineer response.
2. I hadn't set my AVR to stereo
3. I didn't have ASIO4ALL installed

What I'm unsure on:

4.)When gain matching, is there any benefit to use the default test tone in the AVR rather than the pink noise played through REW.​

5.) Timing reference speaker as left main channel 1, but with left main speaker disconnected. I don't understand this. I assume I've been doing this wrong as I can hear the audible beep. Why disconnect the speaker you are sending the test tone to? If it's that the sound will still go to the sub anyway my AVR cross over only goes to 200hz so I won't hear the high frequncy tone.​

​

6.) Perhaps my biggest mistake. Am I supposed to manually adjust the gain in the DSP? I only adjusted the delay as though the gain was part of the EQ.​

Cheers

 

[Tony Barrett]

You need to input the gain adjustment (after normalising in MSO) manually to the correct output channel in the minidsp

 

[Wellz]

Thanks @Tony Barrett, you're right I was intending on doing just the sub only configuration, but didn't realise I was doing the sub + mains. On reading through the tutorial on MSO I misread it as it was just optimising the subs but needed the mains measurement for calibration.



@Wellz, sadly I checked a few times and that green line is correct, 100% just both subs.

An absolute huge thank you for your post, it's the easiest to follow guide I've read so far, and I've realised there's a few steps I've missed out or not done correctly and some I'm not clear on.

What I did wrong:

1. When gain matching my subs, I set them to 0db in the AVR but didn't remove the engineer response.
2. I hadn't set my AVR to stereo
3. I didn't have ASIO4ALL installed

What I'm unsure on:

4.)When gain matching, is there any benefit to use the default test tone in the AVR rather than the pink noise played through REW.​

5.) Timing reference speaker as left main channel 1, but with left main speaker disconnected. I don't understand this. I assume I've been doing this wrong as I can hear the audible beep. Why disconnect the speaker you are sending the test tone to? If it's that the sound will still go to the sub anyway my AVR cross over only goes to 200hz so I won't hear the high frequncy tone.​

​

6.) Perhaps my biggest mistake. Am I supposed to manually adjust the gain in the DSP? I only adjusted the delay as though the gain was part of the EQ.​

Cheers

You're welcome, and I hope it helps.
Here are the answers to the unclear parts:

4. I don't think there's a benefit nor a downside to using the tone from the AVR to gain match the subs so long as you follow the same process. However just know that because of the proximity of the microphone to the subwoofers that's needed in order to minimize the effects of the room in the measurements, even the 75dB tone from the AVR will register a very high on the SPL Meter. The goal is to have the same output level from both subs under the same conditions, so that when you place them in there respective final locations, they both have the same amount of headroom available to meet the need. Just know that if you use the 75db from the AVR as a reference to gain match and set the sub's output to 75db from that 8 inch distance, then the output reading when measured from the MLP will be very low, and might push the AVR to use positive gain values in the Auto-Calibration. Thats why setting the gain knob on the 1st sub to the midpoint will give you enough headroom and later on when you combine the subs, the final combined output will give the AVR's sub channel Auto-Calibration a good point from which to adjust the channel gain level.

5. I guess I was not clear on my explanation for this one. What I meant to say was that if you use the Left channel for the timing reference, then you would use the Right channel For the sweep. However since you only want the sound from the subwoofers, you would then need to disconnect the Right channel Main so that only the sweep sound from the subwoofer would be measured. The reason for using just the Right channel to send the tone is so that it is sent out at the 75 dB volume that you calibrated for in step 7 of the AVR section above. That will ensure that the REW tones are being sent at a good volume.

6. For this one, after MSO runs its course and you get the report, You will see 3 pieces of information that need to be inputted into the MiniDSP. The 1st one will be the delay of one of the subs (which is measured in relation to the other subwoofer). If you had more that 2 subs then you would have delays for all but one. The 2nd will be the channel gain which you do for each sub that needs it. The 3rd is the Biquads that will be exported from MSO and imported to MiniDSP in each channel (sub) that needs it.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

 

[alexf40]

Thanks for all your help, it's really appreciated, for sure I'd never work this out on my own.

Unfortunately I was unable to get ASIO4ALL to install, I tried two different laptops (both Win10 x64), so proceeded without it to see if the rest of the process made a difference. In the meantime I've sent an email to support.

From reading it seems the only real difference without ASIO4ALL is that I can't control the channel output without ASIO4ALL. So rather than send to channel 1 the timing reference, and then channel 4 for the sub sweep, I'm having to send a singular output and rely on the AVR cross over at 200Hz to send the timing reference to the left main and the sweep to the sub, obviously this limits my sweep as can only go to 200Hz.

Anyway I completely started from scratch and did everything all over again, reset the MiniDSP, gain matched again, setting dB and distance to zero, and removing any processing from the AVR.

And this is where I noticed a problem. I had been trusting my AVR's cross over (Sony STR-DN1080) , but I didn't realise that even with the crossover set to 200Hz, that sound playing from the sweep below 200Hz would still go the mains. I tried using just the REW signal generator for sub cal (30-80Hz) and could still hear it from the mains. The sound is reduced but it's not entirely cut. I'm not sure if this was the right thing to do, but to get around this I tried disconnecting the main speaker after the timing reference beep had played.

I re-ran MSO, with a new sub only configuration (no mains measurements), two listening positions, and now have an error result of 0.40dB. Which I'm really pleased with, >1dB improvement over my earlier tests. From reading it appears that the seat to seat optimisation criteria has an improved algorithm compared to the flatten algorithm.

But once all filter infomation has been saved in the DSP, gain and delay set I'm still having issues.

I think it has to be the either the measurements and/or lack of ASIO4ALL which is causing the issues.

Also I feel something went wrong along the way with the gain matching as the AVR after calibration set the sub output +10dB.

This is the prediction, and final REW sweeps for both subs post MSO (pre AVR calibration). The AVR calibration actually made it worse by introducting a 20dB trough at 50Hz.

Really not sure what I can do now.

 

[Wellz]

Thanks for all your help, it's really appreciated, for sure I'd never work this out on my own.

Unfortunately I was unable to get ASIO4ALL to install, I tried two different laptops (both Win10 x64), so proceeded without it to see if the rest of the process made a difference. In the meantime I've sent an email to support.

From reading it seems the only real difference without ASIO4ALL is that I can't control the channel output without ASIO4ALL. So rather than send to channel 1 the timing reference, and then channel 4 for the sub sweep, I'm having to send a singular output and rely on the AVR cross over at 200Hz to send the timing reference to the left main and the sweep to the sub, obviously this limits my sweep as can only go to 200Hz.

Anyway I completely started from scratch and did everything all over again, reset the MiniDSP, gain matched again, setting dB and distance to zero, and removing any processing from the AVR.

And this is where I noticed a problem. I had been trusting my AVR's cross over (Sony STR-DN1080) , but I didn't realise that even with the crossover set to 200Hz, that sound playing from the sweep below 200Hz would still go the mains. I tried using just the REW signal generator for sub cal (30-80Hz) and could still hear it from the mains. The sound is reduced but it's not entirely cut. I'm not sure if this was the right thing to do, but to get around this I tried disconnecting the main speaker after the timing reference beep had played.

I re-ran MSO, with a new sub only configuration (no mains measurements), two listening positions, and now have an error result of 0.40dB. Which I'm really pleased with, >1dB improvement over my earlier tests. From reading it appears that the seat to seat optimisation criteria has an improved algorithm compared to the flatten algorithm.

But once all filter infomation has been saved in the DSP, gain and delay set I'm still having issues.

I think it has to be the either the measurements and/or lack of ASIO4ALL which is causing the issues.

Also I feel something went wrong along the way with the gain matching as the AVR after calibration set the sub output +10dB.

This is the prediction, and final REW sweeps for both subs post MSO (pre AVR calibration). The AVR calibration actually made it worse by introducting a 20dB trough at 50Hz.

Really not sure what I can do now.

View attachment 44506View attachment 44505

Interesting... the MSO graph looks good yet it seems like there is still a crossover activate somewhere around 80Hz to90Hz. However, based on the two graphs it appears like part of the issue is happening some where after your MSO optimization.
Let's do this... I'm going to read through part of the a manual for that Sony AVR to see if there anything that stands out which could be affecting the final result.
On your end, I'd like for you to send some files (attach them to your post). Send the REW .mdat file of your measurements. Also, send the MSO config file of your optimization results.
Let me know which version of REW you are using. I will attach the ASIO4ALL V2 instruction manual file here for you to use review.

 

[Wellz]

If you want to rule out the HDMI and ASIO4ALL, use the JAVA setup and send the audio out of the headphone port on your laptop to the AVR. This would limit the output sources to Left or Right speaker or Both (L+R). you would still follow the same instructions which would be to send the sweep to say the Left Main (which you will disconnect and have set to Small in the AVR speaker size settings) and use the Right Main (still connected) to send the time reference signal. The HELP link in REW has details on how to set the level for this process.

 

[alexf40]

That's a good idea I'll give that a try, it'll have to wait until next week now though as I have two little toddlers running around which makes it impossible to find time to run measurement sweeps

The speakers are set to small with cross over at 200Hz, in fact I can't select the cross over unless the speaker are set to small, so that removes one layer of human error and cross overs on the DSP are bypassed.

I've attached everything I can think of, let me know if there's anything else, and thank you again. I never expected to have this trouble.

I'm running the standard MiniDSP 2x4, in hindsight after everything I"ve read wish I went for the HD.

 

[Wellz]

I completely understand, I have a 7 year old at home myself so most of my measurements are late at night when everyone's asleep. If you can, send some information about the room and gear, things like dimensions and also the speakers and subwoofers models.
Also some screen shots of the settings under preferences in REW and the Optimization configuration in MSO. Just want to see if there is anything out of wack.

 

[alexf40]

Dear internet please excuse the mess

I think my wife would kill me if I started doing measurements at night. The room is open, with one wall almost entirely glass: approximately 17'x30', 7.1 setup, Sony STR-DN1080, Q Acoustic 3050i freestanding and centre, 4x in ceiling SpeakerCraft AIM8 One. Klipsch Sub 12 (300w) downfiring LHS corner, Proficient Audio S12 (250w) front firing RHS (Amp replaced with Dayton SPA250DSP (No settings)).

Just thought I should also probably explain how I did my gain matching in case that could have caused an issue. I put the subs independently on the coffee table directly in the middle of the room, marked the table with tape to ensure the other sub would sit in the same place. Put the Umik mic and tripod about 6 inches from the sub. Set the Proficicent sub at 50% gain on it's scale. Set this one first as I believe it's the less powerful sub. Played pink noise from REW and turned up the AVR until it was at 75dB. Removed that sub and turned off and replaced with the Klipsch then adjusted the gain until it was at 75db, just under half on the gain settings.

Just as a test I tried to install ASIO4ALL on my desktop computer (Antivirus off, install as admin), same issue won't install. Stuck with Java.

**EDIT**
ASIO4ALL issue solved. I was downloading the wrong file. I came across another forum thread whilst searching for installation problems with people doing the same. The main link at the top of the page "Download “a4ainfo.exe” " is not the ASIO4ALL installation file. You need to scroll down to 23 MAY 2017: VERSION 2.14 RELEASED! and click the link "ASIO4ALL 2.14 – English"

Now to start from scratch all over again, I'm not confident this is the issue though.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Dear internet please excuse the mess

I think my wife would kill me if I started doing measurements at night. The room is open, with one wall almost entirely glass: approximately 17'x30', 7.1 setup, Sony STR-DN1080, Q Acoustic 3050i freestanding and centre, 4x in ceiling SpeakerCraft AIM8 One. Klipsch Sub 12 (300w) downfiring LHS corner, Proficient Audio S12 (250w) front firing RHS (Amp replaced with Dayton SPA250DSP (No settings)).

Just thought I should also probably explain how I did my gain matching in case that could have caused an issue. I put the subs independently on the coffee table directly in the middle of the room, marked the table with tape to ensure the other sub would sit in the same place. Put the Umik mic and tripod about 6 inches from the sub. Set the Proficicent sub at 50% gain on it's scale. Set this one first as I believe it's the less powerful sub. Played pink noise from REW and turned up the AVR until it was at 75dB. Removed that sub and turned off and replaced with the Klipsch then adjusted the gain until it was at 75db, just under half on the gain settings.

Just as a test I tried to install ASIO4ALL on my desktop computer (Antivirus off, install as admin), same issue won't install. Stuck with Java.

View attachment 44587

Just a couple thoughts. I would say never gain match. Especially with subs that are different. Gain matching only works with identical subs. Now, the reason gain matching doesn’t work, imo, is that almost always, they end up in different part of the room, with different relationships to the MLP. So if you have one in a corner, and one on an open wall where it leads into a kitchen, the response will be completely different. Ime, level match works better.
Also, I’ve found asio to be nothin it a headache, and unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Wellz]

Dear internet please excuse the mess

I think my wife would kill me if I started doing measurements at night. The room is open, with one wall almost entirely glass: approximately 17'x30', 7.1 setup, Sony STR-DN1080, Q Acoustic 3050i freestanding and centre, 4x in ceiling SpeakerCraft AIM8 One. Klipsch Sub 12 (300w) downfiring LHS corner, Proficient Audio S12 (250w) front firing RHS (Amp replaced with Dayton SPA250DSP (No settings)).

Just thought I should also probably explain how I did my gain matching in case that could have caused an issue. I put the subs independently on the coffee table directly in the middle of the room, marked the table with tape to ensure the other sub would sit in the same place. Put the Umik mic and tripod about 6 inches from the sub. Set the Proficicent sub at 50% gain on it's scale. Set this one first as I believe it's the less powerful sub. Played pink noise from REW and turned up the AVR until it was at 75dB. Removed that sub and turned off and replaced with the Klipsch then adjusted the gain until it was at 75db, just under half on the gain settings.

Just as a test I tried to install ASIO4ALL on my desktop computer (Antivirus off, install as admin), same issue won't install. Stuck with Java.

**EDIT**
ASIO4ALL issue solved. I was downloading the wrong file. I came across another forum thread whilst searching for installation problems with people doing the same. The main link at the top of the page "Download “a4ainfo.exe” " is not the ASIO4ALL installation file. You need to scroll down to 23 MAY 2017: VERSION 2.14 RELEASED! and click the link "ASIO4ALL 2.14 – English"

Now to start from scratch all over again, I'm not confident this is the issue though.

View attachment 44587

I'll start by saying that you should set range to optimize in MSO a little wider, perhaps 20Hz to 150hz. That will give you more room to decide where to set the final Crossover post AVR calibration. Remember that with a sub only optimisation you are looking to create the best combined subwoofer response so that when you perform your auto calibration with the AVR, it detects a good enough bass response so it doesn't have to tweak it. It will just find the best distance and crossover point to then integrate it with the other speakers.
I'm in the middle of a few things now, so I will review your file later and add any comments that are needed. Enjoy the toddlers.