Is this possible?

[PENG]

So I will defend the salesman in a couple areas...
1) I honestly don't think he was trying to upsell me with the 4 height speakers vs. 2...both option in height speakers he quoted are relatively cheap compared to the other components. If he was trying to upsell me I would assume the rear channel speakers would have been higher end as well as the ceiling speakers. I mean one quote is $57ea for the ceiling speaker. I am actually concerned that is not expensive enough haha.
2) I don't think he ever used the word "accuracy" when describing the PB vs SB subs...the way he described it to me was "imagine you are watching a war movie and they are firing a gatling gun. That gun is going to sounds more realistic with the SB sub because it can fire more rapidly and keep each "hit" separate so they don't muddle together"...I translated that to the word "accuracy" which is probably my fault for describing it in that way. Nonetheless I think you have convinced me to stick with PB-3000 vs. the SB-3000

I think you are probably right about that salesman. He just may not be as knowledgeable in this field as some of us here on AH.

My concerns...Install/Warranty/Support

Install
- I will need to run wires through my ceiling in order to install the height speakers...I don't feel overly confident doing this...the room is an addition to the house and has no access to the space in between the ceiling and the roof...I would like to have a professional wire those (as well as wiring my rear surrounds to look nice vs. me just trying to stick the cables under my carpet)...I am sure I could figure it out but not sure I want to take that on.
- I am also wondering what tweaking might be needed on my receiver to get the best sound out of the speakers? Crossover levels? I don't know what I am talking about at all with this which is why I don't really trust myself to get it "calibrated"...is that even a thing? Or do you just need to plug in the wire and not touch any settings on the receiver?

If you are concerned about "install" for a 7.1.4 speakers, unless you want the wires hidden, it should be very straightforward so I wonder what exactly are your concerns?

Warranty
- What if I get a dud? What if something happens 6 months in and I hooked it up wrong, or did something that voided warranty? I assume I would have to pay for S&H if I needed to ship the speaker back for repairs/replacement. That shipping cost would probably be $100-200 right? If I purchased it locally then I am assuming they would handle the warranty process and just bring me a new/repaired speaker.

Any of those speakers you listed should last trouble free for a very long time. It is nice to buy local if in fact the dealer promised in writing they will handle repair/replacement including pick up and delivery, but keep in mind there is no guarantee that the local dealer would still be in business 5, 10 years from now.

Support
- Because this is my first "real" system, I would like to be able to have some knowledgable people supporting me with the process. You all are great, but none of you are going to make a house call to troubleshoot something that broke/doesn't sound right/needs to be tweaked because some hardware has changed (i.e. buying a new receiver down the line, adding a 2nd sub, etc.)

You will be surprised how many times people got their trouble isolated, even resolved with the help from AH members. Again, if you are referring to those speakers, it is very unlikely you would run into such trouble, and if you did, you should have no trouble contacting the manufacturers (B&M, Revel, SVS etc.) via email or phone.

He also gave me a "discount" on the B&W from 5K to 4.5K and the Revels from 5K to 4K (not to mention the used C208 that they are selling for 1K instead of 2K)...Where am I going to get those prices and a person I can call if something is not right? That "peace of mind" is something that appeals to me.

5K to 4K seems reasonable, but not 5K to 4.5K imo. The dealer's cost would likely be at least 35% below his list price so you have room to negotiate yet. Yes he needs to make a profit.

I think it is a really good idea to ask him to put the 206's in the same setup/position/room as the 702's and play some of MY MUSIC so I can really pick out the differences in a song I am familiar with. Are the 208's better acoustically/musically/reproducing the sound vs. the 206's? Or are they just "louder" "fuller"? Basically...if I like the 206's ALMOST as much as the B&W 702's will that mean I will like the 208's MORE? Again...so hard because I can't hear the 208's right next to the 206's right next to the 702's (that setup would be ideal to hear the differences)

That is absolutely a good idea before you finalize your choice, if you do that, the remaining uncertainty would be "bias". As a well regarded expert wrote in one of his many articles/books:

It would be great if somehow you can do a blind test in the dealer's place. I had tried that a couple times in the past and it was extremely difficult to do but I did get some benefit from it.

Once again - thank you all for the time, energy and effort you have put into this thread to educate me so I can try to make the best decisions. You all are amazing!

Talking about being educated...you seem like very open minded to ideas/suggestions/information, so I would suggest you read more on the topic of subjective vs objective evaluations, so that you will see why relying on just subjective evaluation would almost be a futile/unreliable way in terms of picking the seemingly better sounding one.

I have listen to many B&W speakers, but mostly the 800 diamond series though I have auditioned the 700 non diamond series as well. If it was my money, I would go with the better sounding (to me) BMR, designed by Dennis Murphy, but you can buy the better looking/finished ones build by Salk. I found them sounding as good as my Focal 1028 Be that cost 4X, and that was before they were measured by Audioholics. The measurements confirmed and explained why I thought they are among the best sounding speakers $2,000 or even $5,000 money can buy.

Philharmonic Audio BMR Philharmonitor Measurements & Conclusion | Audioholics
Salk Sound

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That would set me back more than 10k with tax and everything

That is huge upgrade from Bose to $10K.

I am getting overwhelmed with all of the choices and option out there...not being able to actually hear anything before I purchase makes me nervous.

1. Never buy anything until you no longer feel overwhelmed.

Especially for $10K or $8K or $6K.

This might be your system for the next 30 years. Read all the advices. Absorb it. Keep posting here on AH. Then once you no longer feel overwhelmed, then you are ready to make your purchase.

Yeah, Bose sucks. But don’t spend a dime until you are ready.

2. Bias. No one is immune to bias. Everyone has a different opinion, which contributes to your overwhelmed feeling. All measurements of all speakers and electronics are a good guideline, but they are definitely not the end to all. So look at measurements, but also use your ears, eyes, and your brain.

 

[shadyJ]

That is absolutely a good idea before you finalize your choice, if you do that, the remaining uncertainty would be "bias". As a well regarded expert wrote in one of his many articles/books:

View attachment 43101


It would be great if somehow you can do a blind test in the dealer's place. I had tried that a couple times in the past and it was extremely difficult to do but I did get some benefit from it.

Not to digress too much, but the implications that this sort of research has for high-end audio can not be over-stated. If you ask me, it is the elephant in the room, and if people actually understood what it meant, it would smash everything to pieces. What it is saying, as well as many other studies like it, is that we hear with our eyes and not our ears when we are looking at what we are listening to. We also hear with our biases and expectations. The entire hobby of "hi-fi audio" is built on a foundation of sand, and the only reason why it doesn't collapse altogether is that human beings are fundamentally emotional and not rational.

 

[nicholas_d_88]

Hey Guys

I am going back to the store next week to listen to some of the material I am more familiar with. Hopefully this will allow me to decide between the 702 S2 & F208's

However, I would like your opinion on the "surround" speakers in each setup they quoted me. Are these surround speakers up to the job?

B&W Setup
Rear Surround - 2 x 607 (Black) $490
Height Surround - 4 x CCM665 $175ea ($696 Total)

Revel Setup
Rear Surround - 2 x S16AM (Black) $750
Height Surround - 4 x C383 $56ea ($224 Total)

I believe I am leaning toward the Revel setup because of your opinions as well as the price point (getting a used center speaker and 1K off of the floorstanding is a good deal IMO)

S16AM vs. M16...can you guys explain the difference? The S16 says it is "on wall" and the M16 says "bookshelf"...they are both listed at 450msrp

Does it make sense to "upgrade" the rears to an M105? 750msrp vs 450msrp...will it be worth the price?

C383...msrp on these are 350ea...the quote showed 4 of them for a total of $225...am I missing something here?

 

[mazersteven]

I haven't looked up all the speakers you've just posted but I give my thoughts on surround speakers
Surround speakers should come from the same family and same series as your mains. In doing so you keep a seamless transition of audio quality throughout your whole system.
Some will say that surrounds aren't as critical or as important the keep in the same series or same family. And while there is some truth to that. I still believe that having a seamless system all the way around will ultimately give you a better home theater experience.

 

[shadyJ]

S16AM vs. M16...can you guys explain the difference? The S16 says it is "on wall" and the M16 says "bookshelf"...they are both listed at 450msrp

The M16 is a normal speaker and is intended to be used at a distance away from nearby surfaces. It would degrade the sound for it to be used right up against a wall. The S16AM was design to be used mounted to a wall. If you intend to wall mount these speakers, the S16 would be better.

 

[nicholas_d_88]

@shadyJ - I think I could make either work...which is going to give me the best sound?

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ - I think I could make either work...which is going to give me the best sound?

If you can give the M16 some distance away from the wall, it should provide a better sound. The difference won't be huge in a surround speaker channel though.

 

[nicholas_d_88]

Some distance? 12"? 2 feet? I could probably swing 12" not sure I could do much more than that

 

[highfigh]

please don't do a sealed subwoofer please

F208 or F206

Sealed sub in the right space is great- not boomy, can do well WRT low frequencies and there's no problem with sending signal below a port's tuning frequency. They just need to be used correctly. Ever listen to ADS car subwoofers?

 

[nicholas_d_88]

What do you guys think about "room treatment"?

I have read the best is to decouple the walls but that is not going to be possible (or rather, I don't want to add 5K to this project by contracting someone to build another wall). I also don't want to tear out the drywall and replace it with sound specific drywall (cost).

So what I currently have is 6 acoustimac panels (36"x12"x2")
I am looking into Bass Traps from acoustimac (48"x24x6")

What are your thoughts on these additions? I already have the panels so I will be using them no matter what but I haven't purchased the bass traps yet.

I plan to use this article to help with the 6 acoustic panels I have - https://acousticsfreq.com/where-to-place-acoustic-treatment-in-a-home-theater/

I have read that the bass traps should be in each of the 4 corners from the floor all the way to the ceiling. I will absolutely invest in the bass traps if they will make a difference but I would need 8 of them to cover the 4 corners of my room from floor to ceiling. That is about $1,200 in product...not cheap but if its worth it I will make the investment.

Any other "easy" ideas to help that are worth the investment?

 

[mazersteven]

Some threads to read

Acoustics

Audio physics, psychoacoustics and the science of sound.

theaudioannex.com

 

[shadyJ]

What do you guys think about "room treatment"?

I have read the best is to decouple the walls but that is not going to be possible (or rather, I don't want to add 5K to this project by contracting someone to build another wall). I also don't want to tear out the drywall and replace it with sound specific drywall (cost).

So what I currently have is 6 acoustimac panels (36"x12"x2")
I am looking into Bass Traps from acoustimac (48"x24x6")

What are your thoughts on these additions? I already have the panels so I will be using them no matter what but I haven't purchased the bass traps yet.

I plan to use this article to help with the 6 acoustic panels I have - https://acousticsfreq.com/where-to-place-acoustic-treatment-in-a-home-theater/

I have read that the bass traps should be in each of the 4 corners from the floor all the way to the ceiling. I will absolutely invest in the bass traps if they will make a difference but I would need 8 of them to cover the 4 corners of my room from floor to ceiling. That is about $1,200 in product...not cheap but if its worth it I will make the investment.

Any other "easy" ideas to help that are worth the investment?

Don't use any acoustic treatments until you know the problem you are trying to fix. Acoustic treatments should looked at as a solution to a specific problem. You could easily be making things worse by simply putting up treatments without understanding what they are doing.

 

[nicholas_d_88]

@shadyJ - Fair enough. I can't imagine I won't have bass frequency issues in such a small room. I thought that "bass traps" are beneficial in any room to help absorb those low frequencies so they don't bounce off the corners and create a "muddy" lower end. Is that not the case? I assume most people have issues with bass frequencies their setups?

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ - Fair enough. I can't imagine I won't have bass frequency issues in such a small room. I thought that "bass traps" are beneficial in any room to help absorb those low frequencies so they don't bounce off the corners and create a "muddy" lower end. Is that not the case? I assume most people have issues with bass frequencies their setups?

No offense, but your understanding of low-frequency acoustics is not quite right. Small rooms actually make for worse issues in low frequencies. They do so by raising the 'transition frequency.' The transition frequency is where room modes begin to appear in low frequencies. In large rooms, the transition frequency might be like 250 to 300Hz. In a small room. it can be as high as 500Hz.

In a small room, bass traps may well be a good idea, since the range they address is like 100hz to 500Hz. The only way to know if they work is to measure the results. It's true that many rooms have a ragged mid to upper bass response. You need to measure the response to see what is going on there.

I would suggest reading up on it. Here are a couple good starting points: Bass traping ideas for non-ideal spaces and bass traps for home theater.

 

[nicholas_d_88]

Alright guys...probably my last question before I pull the trigger on everything...

Current AVR : Onkyo TX-RZ820 (7 Channel)

What I am going to purchase

2 x Revel 208's (Front)
1 x Revel C208 (Center)
4 x Revel C383 (Ceiling)
2 x Revel S16AM (Rear)
2 x SVS PB-3000 (Subs)

My current receiver can only handle 7 speakers.

Option 1 : $800 for Denon 3600H (Just connect the Xbox directly to TV and use eArc)
Option 2 : Arcam Receiver (local guy says sound quality is great...xbox directly connected to TV and use eArc)
Option 3 : Wait until later this year/early next for a HMDI 2.1 receiver that actually works with Xbox Series X (I will only be able to play 2 of the 4 height speakers with my current receiver)

Thoughts?

 

[mazersteven]

#3

 

[nicholas_d_88]

@mazersteven - what would be a brand I should look at in the future? Not Arcam?

 

[mazersteven]

Denon 3700

This receiver has a very stable amp section it also has the ability to add external amplification if you desire that in the future plus all the features makes it a great choice

 

[nicholas_d_88]

The 3700 is only $1,200. That doesn't seem bad at all...it doesn't provide what I want in terms of gaming (xbox series x) but if thats the receiver that is going to be best for me I might as well buy it right away, right?

The Arcam that the sales guy suggested was the AVR10 or 20 (i forget) but told me they only power 7 speakers (but can utilize 11 if powered separately) so he suggested I get a separate amp to power the 2 rears...I don't think I want to go through all that if I am not getting a huge upgrade in sound quality (the receiver was $2,500 that he quotes, didn't quote me on the separate amp)