Amp question

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you don't like the sound upgrade the speaker. The amp is gonna do nothing.
Seriously.
This is not rocket science. This is basic.

I think it's pretty basic also, especially to most of us.

I think If he wants only towers and absolutely no additional subwoofers, then, yes, I agree that he would need to get speakers with a lot more bass.

Or I think he could just add a subwoofer or two.

Did I miss something? Does no one else think THIN SOUND = LACK of BASS?

Where are all the subwoofer police who are usually all over this?

 

[Movie2099]

I don't know. Might not be enough power to improve that thin sound, regardless of how much power the speakers really need - you know based on speaker sensitivity, distance, and volume.

The MC152 is "only" 150W x 2Ch into 4 ohms. His current NAD AVR can output 164W x 2Ch into 4 ohms.

To increase the volume by another 3 whole dB, he would need to increase to 300W x 2Ch into 4 ohms so that he could get reach 109dB volume.

My bad, you're right. I was just trying to be nice and stay around the $5k mark. But screw it. You only live once and this is the audio life you wanted live. tmurnin, forget the MC152. Grab yourself 2-MC2KW amps. Forget about the price. Your wife might leave you (if you have one) and you might default on your mortgage (if you have one), but who the hell cares when you have the best amps on the market? Am I right??!! For a measly $70k, chump change for audioholics and home theater enthusiast's such as ourselves.

Don't listen to the naysayers on here. They could never dream of owning something as high end and awesome as the McIntosh MC2KW's. Grab that debit card and lets go!

 

[ski2xblack]

It is not nearly as basic as you think. The amp speaker interface is actually a very complex problem and NOT in any way basic.

It's harder to find amps with high source impedance, and none mentioned by the OP exhibit that trait. I doubt source impedance of the amps is as relevant as the more basic power question.

He's trying to address what appears to be a tonal response deficiency, while trying to energize a 18x30 room with four 5.5" drivers. That's like using a Prius to pull a trailer up Loveland pass, not the right tool for the job.

 

[ski2xblack]

I think it's pretty basic also, especially to most of us.

I think If he wants only towers and absolutely no additional subwoofers, then, yes, I agree that he would need to get speakers with a lot more bass.

Or I think he could just add a subwoofer or two.

Did I miss something? Does no one else think THIN SOUND = LACK of BASS?

Where are all the subwoofer police who are usually all over this?

"Thin" probably involves mid bass and lower midrange too, frequencies above subwoofer range.

Now, if he had some TOWERS OF POWER, as you like to describe your own preferred speakers, he would have copious and relatively limitless dynamic range throughout the power band, extending up to 400 Hz or so.

 

[pcosmic]

So you wanna go thick eh? Skinny ain't doing it for ya?
Without pictures and graphs, it is hard to tell anything. And no one here may exactly know what you perceive as "thin" or "thick". But, here's a shot in the dark.
FREE:
1)Are you sitting too far from your speakers? That's still a 18 ft dimension in your large room. Move closer and try a equilateral triangle with your speakers no more than 8 ft apart and toed in.
2) I don't know anything about your NAD. But, give this a shot: Start with a flat line. Boost EQ in the 1 to 4k range with low q by 2 to 3 db. Did that start to fix it? Next, a couple of db boost around a 150hz with low Q. See if it sounds "thicker". Did that start to fix it? Don't feel like a measurement traitor because some rube told ya that your curves should be flat. Keep in mind that (starting from the recording) the mastering engineer already colored every recording you've got by a lot. You don't even know what neutral is to begin with (not to mention the fact that your room screws with you all day long). So, say no to neutral, yes to colored on these trials and be liberal with the EQ!! As long as it works for your ears, it should be just fine.

NOT FREE:
3) Diffusion, diffusion, diffusion...Slap some diffusers starting with behind your seated position. Go to the hardware store, pick up some wood, wood glue, a saw and get to work. There are many tutorials on diy diffusion. Both comb filtering and flutter echoes in your room can tend to give you the perception that your sound is thin. Diffusers will get rid of it. If you put any absorptive treatment behind you, remove it and resort to diffusion (You should play it safe by not adding absorption to a room/setup that already sounds thin/dead).

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Thin sound could be many things?
1. Could be under powered (but not likely is he already has 150W?)
2. Could be EQ set wrong? Try Pure Direct mode?
3. Maybe a sub helps! (HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP Sub)
4. REW and Umik would offer a good start to see how current room measures.

 

[ski2xblack]

Gotta agree with the last couple posts. A lot of interpretations and conjecture going on, including by me. The OP needs to assess both the power question and the "thinness" question (freq response), and then and only then proceed with possible solutions.

But hey, it's just another cacophonous Audioholics thread, good intentions or not. I hope we've given @tmurnin some things to think about, and some info to gather before impusively buying amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

"Thin" probably involves mid bass and lower midrange too, frequencies above subwoofer range.

Now, if he had some TOWERS OF POWER, as you like to describe your own preferred speakers, he would have copious and relatively limitless dynamic range throughout the power band, extending up to 400 Hz or so.

Makes sense. I totally agree. Mid-bass, lower midrange, and bass above the subwoofer range is about right.

Man, I am REALLY tempted to talk about the speakers I love and own - those Towers of Po..... Nope, nope, I'm not going there. I'm holding back. Just focusing on the OP's speakers, not my own speakers.

Reiterating - I just don't think the issue is the amp. 164W x 2Ch RMS into 4 ohms seems very good for 10FT distance. I think he needs more bass from 40Hz-400Hz. Now, as you say, if he had some Towers of Pow.......Nope, nope, nope. Not going there. That was close.

What are you trying to do? Get me in trouble here!

I think @Gmoney is going to insert his picture of the Bugs Bunny Vulture saying, "Nope, nope, nope, nope".

Then insert his picture of Thor's Hammer.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My bad, you're right. I was just trying to be nice and stay around the $5k mark. But screw it. You only live once and this is the audio life you wanted live. tmurnin, forget the MC152. Grab yourself 2-MC2KW amps. Forget about the price. Your wife might leave you (if you have one) and you might default on your mortgage (if you have one), but who the hell cares when you have the best amps on the market? Am I right??!! For a measly $70k, chump change for audioholics and home theater enthusiast's such as ourselves.

Don't listen to the naysayers on here. They could never dream of owning something as high end and awesome as the McIntosh MC2KW's. Grab that debit card and lets go!

Absolutely, bro. Those $70K Mac amps are guaranteed to turn that thin sound into thunderous dynamic sound.

 

[Movie2099]

Makes sense. I totally agree. Mid-bass, lower midrange, and bass above the subwoofer range is about right.

Man, I am REALLY tempted to talk about the speakers I love and own - those Towers of Po..... Nope, nope, I'm not going there. I'm holding back. Just focusing on the OP's speakers, not my own speakers.

Reiterating - I just don't think the issue is the amp. 164W x 2Ch RMS into 4 ohms seems very good for 10FT distance. I think he needs more bass from 40Hz-400Hz. Now, as you say, if he had some Towers of Pow.......Nope, nope, nope. Not going there. That was close.

What are you trying to do? Get me in trouble here!

I think @Gmoney is going to insert his picture of the Bugs Bunny Vulture saying, "Nope, nope, nope, nope".

Then insert his picture of Thor's Hammer.

Gmoney has Thor's Hammer??? Damn! That's must sound amazing in his setup.

 

[PENG]

Again, the OP should use that calculator to figure out his power need first, other wise, as ski2xblack said "...A lot of interpretations and conjecture going on..", and will continue..

The fact is, regardless of phase angle and impedance dips, if the OP only needs 50 W 8 ohms, or 100 W 4 ohms for his peak spl requirements then more power is not going to help, but he needs 2X that (just for example), then the RB1572 will probably help, though not as much a subwoofer would, because the sub would help regardless of his power need.

 

[Mikado463]

Again, the OP should use that calculator to figure out his power need first, other wise, as ski2xblack said "...A lot of interpretations and conjecture going on..", and will continue..

The fact is, regardless of phase angle and impedance dips, if the OP only needs 50 W 8 ohms, or 100 W 4 ohms for his peak spl requirements then more power is not going to help, but he needs 2X that (just for example), then the RB1572 will probably help, though not as much a subwoofer would, because the sub would help regardless of his power need.

all good points and as for the sub(s), given his room size I say multiples thereof !

 

[pcosmic]

Again, the OP should use that calculator to figure out his power need first, other wise, as ski2xblack said "...A lot of interpretations and conjecture going on..", and will continue..

The fact is, regardless of phase angle and impedance dips, if the OP only needs 50 W 8 ohms, or 100 W 4 ohms for his peak spl requirements then more power is not going to help, but he needs 2X that (just for example), then the RB1572 will probably help, though not as much a subwoofer would, because the sub would help regardless of his power need.

It's all your fault! You told him his curves should be flat.. But, he likes his sound thick, lush, colorful and curvy. He wants to feel like he's wrapped tight in Beyonce's thunder thighs when he's listening. The flat ass belongs in ASR, not audioholics! Bwaaahahahaha

 

[Alex2507]

Does no one else think THIN SOUND = LACK of BASS?

Thin is a lack of bass. But ...

The OP already has an Hsu subwoofer.

A speaker sounding thin and a sub being missing aren't the same. You can add a sub to a thin speaker and still have a thin sounding speaker. Besides, I don't see the ST's as sounding thin. If anything they're good on low end output considering the size of the drivers involved.

I have a pair of 'bright' DIY speakers and I don't see how a below 60 Hz hump would alleviate that. I think sorting out the speaker issue before adding the sub has merit.

 

[eljr]

I'm going to back Jim Salk. I doubt your receiver drives those Saks speakers properly.

Why don't you tell me what speakers you had whose sound you changed by adding watts?

Thanks

Honest, this thread is silly. If a guy does not like the sound of his speakers, he needs to change speakers.

Good grief.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The OP already has an Hsu subwoofer.

DOH!

Yeah, I might have missed that part of his Sig.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If a guy does not like the sound of his speakers, he needs to change speakers.

Before changing speakers (no matter which speakers he has, except for Bose ), it might be worth exploring his setup (AVR, Subwoofer, etc.).

After attempting to resolve this issue with his setup and the sound is still "THIN", then I think it's time to look at other speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

I've never been one to out-of-hand just recommend an Amp to somebody. Def not as a means of improving SQ.
I think our friendly OP has a job of work on his hands: Positioning, Room Treatment and Measurements seem to be in order.
I suspect Photos will reveal a host of acoustic sins.

Also, as he mentioned this is a basement room, I'm expecting concrete as part of the equation. We know concrete will subdue the lower end somewhat, as well as strengthening anything in the Mids and Highs through reflection.

@tmurnin Curious to know if you get any slap echo in there?

 

[tmurnin]

I have an Hsu ULS-15 sub already. Interestingly, Jim didn't think the sub would do much to benefit, esp for music (vs home theater). I obv didn't do a great job in describing what I mean by "thin," so let me try again. It feels like I'm getting an overemphasis on highs and some mid-range but very little at the low mid-range and into the bass. I've tried running the speakers both as full-range alongside the sub and crossing them over at 80hz but not getting much better. I've thought about setting the subcrossover at a higher level but haven't tried that yet.

As far as the room is concerned, I'm open to some modifications/accentuations to help with things, but this is a large space that serves as music listening room/bar (shouldn't those always go together?), game room, etc. Most of the space is really just passive listening so I'd like to focus on the main listening point rather than the entire room. Modifying anything on the ceiling would be a pretty tough ask - this is my wife's mid-century lounge, so any room mods have to be in keeping with the style of the room and not take away from it. I'll take some pics and post them to this thread later today.

As appealing as the $70k McIntosh amps might be, I can't go down that road until I finish paying off the $5k I spent on Transparent speaker cables and cable risers, and then I have my eye on a $2k power conditioner from Monster. Should only take me about 36 more months....

 

[Movie2099]

I have an Hsu ULS-15 sub already. Interestingly, Jim didn't think the sub would do much to benefit, esp for music (vs home theater). I obv didn't do a great job in describing what I mean by "thin," so let me try again. It feels like I'm getting an overemphasis on highs and some mid-range but very little at the low mid-range and into the bass. I've tried running the speakers both as full-range alongside the sub and crossing them over at 80hz but not getting much better. I've thought about setting the subcrossover at a higher level but haven't tried that yet.

As far as the room is concerned, I'm open to some modifications/accentuations to help with things, but this is a large space that serves as music listening room/bar (shouldn't those always go together?), game room, etc. Most of the space is really just passive listening so I'd like to focus on the main listening point rather than the entire room. Modifying anything on the ceiling would be a pretty tough ask - this is my wife's mid-century lounge, so any room mods have to be in keeping with the style of the room and not take away from it. I'll take some pics and post them to this thread later today.

As appealing as the $70k McIntosh amps might be, I can't go down that road until I finish paying off the $5k I spent on Transparent speaker cables and cable risers, and then I have my eye on a $2k power conditioner from Monster. Should only take me about 36 more months....

All of the above that you are paying off was all well worth the purchase. Cable Risers are a must! Like I've always said, If you don't have expensive cables and risers to pair them with, you are not a true Audioholic. Having the power conditioner is just icing on the cake. Having the power conditioner is going to increase the thickness of your sound by 3dbs. The midrange will be oozing chocolatey goodness. Spend everything you have to get the most expensive. It's expensive for a reason.