HDMI 2.1 Chipset Bug in AV Receivers Causing Gaming Problems

[Baff]

I agree with you that 8K is really, really bonkers since a person with normal vision (not golden eyes, they can resolve the difference from any viewing distance ;-)) would have to sit so close to the TV to resolve the difference between 4K and 8K it's really impractical.

You are correct only if you assume small 50" tvs. My next tv (in a few years) will be about 90", and 8k will matter at my 7' viewing distance. I have good eyes, but certainly not golden. My 65" oled is the first tv I have had to really concentrate to see the pixels at 7'. It is nice to be able to relax while watching a movie and not see them.
Now 16k, that will absolutely NEVER be decernible...

 

[Blue Dude]

Just as we've reached the limit of human perceptiveness in consumer audio, sooner or later we'll reach the limit of human perceptiveness in consumer video. Or at least we'll reach the point that further improvements will be in features, price and size, not resolution or perceptible quality improvement.

I'm not sure what those specs are, but it'll probably be something like 8K resolution for wall-sized screens (120" diagonal from 10 ft viewing distance), frame rates to 120Hz, 16 bit color covering the entire rec 2020 color gamut, capable of simultaneously displaying 1000 nits full screen, 4000 nit highlights and fully dark blacks. Such a display would be able to reproduce just about any visual content near to the ultimate limits of the human eye. Where else could you go from there?

 

[Gmoney]

Just as we've reached the limit of human perceptiveness in consumer audio, sooner or later we'll reach the limit of human perceptiveness in consumer video. Or at least we'll reach the point that further improvements will be in features, price and size, not resolution or perceptible quality improvement.

I'm not sure what those specs are, but it'll probably be something like 8K resolution for wall-sized screens (120" diagonal from 10 ft viewing distance), frame rates to 120Hz, 16 bit color covering the entire rec 2020 color gamut, capable of simultaneously displaying 1000 nits full screen, 4000 nit highlights and fully dark blacks. Such a display would be able to reproduce just about any visual content near to the ultimate limits of the human eye. Where else could you go from there?

Hologram deck like on Star Trek.

 

[snakeeyes]

If the Yamahas are using the same chips for HDMI as the Denon, I’m assuming that means they are also limited to 40gbps.

How can we even call these HDMI 2.1 if they aren’t 48gbps?

 

[Baff]

How can we even call these HDMI 2.1 if they aren’t 48gbps?

The HDMI 2.1 standard does not require 48Gbps. PS5 & XBox Series S/X are also 40Gbps. About the only thing out there that does 48 are the 2019 LG B9/C9/G9/etc. Those are input-only chips, which are much simpler than the in/out chips in AVRs.

 

[Otto Pylot]

The HDMI 2.1 standard does not require 48Gbps. PS5 & XBox Series S/X are also 40Gbps. About the only thing out there that does 48 are the 2019 LG B9/C9/G9/etc. Those are input-only chips, which are much simpler than the in/out chips in AVRs.

HDMI 2.1 is a set of options, not really a standard. For a mfr to claim that their device is HDMI 2.1 compliant they must test and show that those options, any or all, are available. However, the way they are tested and implemented is up to the device mfr.

"Successful completion of the Compliance Test Specification or ATC Testing does not guarantee that any product will conform to the High-Definition Multimedia Interfaces, function correctly or interoperate with any other product."

Ethernet, for example, is an standard standard (IEEE 802.1/.3). You won't see that for HDMI.

 

[Trebdp83]

HDMI 2.1b Specification Overview

HDMI 2.1b technology enables end-to-end 8K & 4K solutions, faster refresh rates, and Dynamic HDR support. ✓ Click here to learn more about HDMI 2.1b

hdmi.org

 

[Stangs55]

Welp, I can confirm it’s a hot mess.

Hooked up the Xbox Series X to Denon 2700 to LG GX 77” last night.

The dashboard works fine. But try playing a game and it either goes to black every few seconds (Fortnite) or just goes to black completely (AC Valhalla).

Problem is that I run everything through my walls from a media cabinet....so no chance at directly connecting.

I also haven’t found a way to force 4K 60 in the Dashboard...

Thanks Denon!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks Denon!

I thing you mean Panasonic... they made the chips.

Blaming Denon is like blaming the hearse when you're riding to the grave.

 

[Stangs55]

I thing you mean Panasonic... they made the chips.

Blaming Denon is like blaming the hearse when you're riding to the grave.

Nah. I blame Denon.

Unless there is only 1 chip available in the world, then I blame Panasonic.

My understanding is the the chip is a problem because it doesn’t do compressed and uncompressed.
So if Denon cheated us with their flagship receiver by choosing a less capable chip....then I blame Denon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Trell]

I thing you mean Panasonic... they made the chips.

Blaming Denon is like blaming the hearse when you're riding to the grave.

It's up to the procurer to verify that the chips they order work as promised, Denon in this case. When we order new chips we do much testing, though, our case is much simpler. On the other hand Denon is far, far bigger...

 

[ryanosaur]

It's up to the procurer to verify that the chips they order work as promised, Denon in this case. When we order new chips we do much testing, though, our case is much simpler. On the other hand Denon is far, far bigger...

While I don't disagree with you, Trell, and I am by no means an expert at this, Sound United and Yamaha both have this problem. Anthem is about to drop their new gear. Who else?

Is Panasonic(Nuvoton) the only supplier for this?

What I see is an unfortunate rush forward on all counts. This particular one seems to be driven by the new Consoles in the gaming market more than anything else.

The AVS thread has some good dialog about this:

Faulty AVR HDMI 2.1 Chips Causing an Issue Displaying...

The quick rundown: 2020 AVRs with HDMI 2.1 Panasonic chips seem to display a black screen when pushing 4k/120 and 8k/60 through them. This is a hardware problem, so no firmware updates will fix it. Marantz, Denon, Yamaha use the chips in their 2020 and upcoming 2021 lineups. Sony, Pioneer and...

www.avsforum.com

And this from the cat's at ASR:

[bug] HDMI 2.1 chip (Panasonic Solutions)

Not audio related, but certainly of interest for (potential) buyers... ==== AV-Receiver: HDMI 2.1 Bug macht Probleme mit Xbox Series X & RTX 3000 AV receiver: HDMI 2.1 bug causes problems with Xbox Series X & RTX 3000 [Google translated]

www.audiosciencereview.com

Would like to see @M Code chime in here, if you are willing, please.

I really see this rush to get to market with support prior to anybody being able to adequately test. To me, Panasonic is at fault for not being on top of their product. The embarrassment that SU and Yamaha should be experiencing for not doing their own due diligence ought to be measured by tonnage, and true, they share blame as well. I am by no means trying to defend Denon!

I'm also curious to know if Microsoft and Sony worked with any of the AVR companies to discover if the products would work seamlessly.

No matter how you cut it and whether you like it or not, this is one of the major flaws, both, with rushing products to market and early adoption.

 

[Trebdp83]

Interesting that with all of the stupid "unboxing" videos on Youtube that I saw of the new consoles, none of them saw fit to test the most important feature of all. I'd be willing to bet that they were only able to get their hands on those consoles as long as they agreed not to mention that the HDMI 2.1 features weren't actually going to work. Everybody tried to take HDMI 2.1 out of the oven before it was done baking and f#%ked up the whole meal.

 

[snakeeyes]

Also these “HDMI 2.1” devices are only 40gbps. (Including Xbox) None are 48gbps. Makes me think a HDMI 2.1b or something will be coming eventually anyhow.

 

[Trebdp83]

Also these “HDMI 2.1” devices are only 40gbps. (Including Xbox) None are 48gbps. Makes me think a HDMI 2.1b or something will be coming eventually anyhow.

Yeah, and the HDMI 2.1 spec accounts for 48gbps but nobody has hardware at that spec. Cables coming soon.

Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable - Bandwidth Up To 48Gbps

Looking for a high speed HDMI cable? ✓ Click here to learn about high speed vs ultra high speed HDMI cable specifications & certification program compliance! HDMI 2.1b

hdmi.org

 

[Otto Pylot]

Yeah, and the HDMI 2.1 spec accounts for 48gbps but nobody has hardware at that spec. Cables coming soon.

Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable - Bandwidth Up To 48Gbps

Looking for a high speed HDMI cable? ✓ Click here to learn about high speed vs ultra high speed HDMI cable specifications & certification program compliance! HDMI 2.1b

hdmi.org

Zeskit and Belkin are supposed to have UHS HDMI cables and are already selling them, even though they don't have the QR label of authenticity affixed to the packaging yet. That is supposed to happen around the end of November/early December. Those cables will be certified for 48Gbps but it's going to be a long time before source material is available that requires that bandwidth. HDMI 2.1 is really only useful for the gamers at present.

 

[snakeeyes]

Guessing when the cost of 10G switches comes down, they will do this over IP using ethernet switching instead of HDMI.

 

[Trell]

Guessing when the cost of 10G switches comes down, they will do this over IP using ethernet switching instead of HDMI.

Not only cost but power consumption as well.

 

[Otto Pylot]

That all sounds good but I fear we are stuck with HDMI for a very long time.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Guessing when the cost of 10G switches comes down, they will do this over IP using ethernet switching instead of HDMI.

I doubt it. Not if HDMI is 48Gbps. Thunderbolt is more likely (it's moving to 40Gbps) than Ethernet, but I still doubt it. HDMI has HDCP (digital rights management capabilities), which the content providers demand.