The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[davidscott]

Well, there's the Vinyl News thread .... https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/vinyl-news.47017/

Thanks I know that thread I've responded to it
I was thinking more of a phono equipment poll type of thing but let me go back and read that entire thread.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks I know that thread I've responded to it
I was thinking more of a phono equipment poll type of thing but let me go back and read that entire thread.

You could always just start the thread you're thinking about....what are you thinking about polling particularly?

 

[davidscott]

Thanks for asking. Maybe which TTs and carts that you own and use. There do seem to be a few vinyl peeps here on Audioholics and not all of them are old guys like me.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks for asking. Maybe which TTs and carts that you own and use. There do seem to be a few vinyl peeps here on Audioholics and not all of them are old guys like me.

I do wonder how many have multiple tts....never saw the need myself. Might be a complicated poll to cover all the possibilities....

 

[David Harper]

A few of the new LP's I bought sound really good. One of them is Eric Clapton "unplugged". I think it may sound better than any CD I own. Which doesn't make sense to me. I know that CD should, in theory, be superior to vinyl in sq so how can this LP sound better? Maybe the mastering? Something else going on? Maybe the vinyl recording is uncompressed? Or maybe the LP was mastered on analog equipment from a master tape?

 

[sterling shoote]

A few of the new LP's I bought sound really good. One of them is Eric Clapton "unplugged". I think it may sound better than any CD I own. Which doesn't make sense to me. I know that CD should, in theory, be superior to vinyl in sq so how can this LP sound better? Maybe the mastering? Something else going on? Maybe the vinyl recording is uncompressed? Or maybe the LP was mastered on analog equipment from a master tape?

I like your post. It's your conclusions qualified with "maybe" which describes the performance as possibly being better or worse than another means to the music that I like because it's a reasonable assessment. My opinion of LPs as a means to enjoy recorded music has some history in its making. Back in 1975 I purchased a Sony PS-4750 Turntable and a Shure V15 III Cartridge, which I still use to this day; but, somewhere in the mid 80's I abandoned my TT for a CD Player, finding it more attractive than my TT for recorded music pleasure, in all manner that attractive can be discerned. At any rate, about 3 years ago, I became aware of the LP revival. From what I read it appeared that folks were getting more pleasure from LPs than CDs. This made me think I might want to re-visit the vinyl medium. After all "maybe" the technology of record spinning had improved and I had missed it. So, I went to the book store and purchased a handful of new LPs and ordered a new Technics SL-1210GR from B&H, which upon arrival, I fitted a Shure V15V-MR/Jico SAS cartridge/stylus assembly. I was disappointed. First, I did not perceive the new record playing outfit sounded any better than my 43 year old Sony TT with its cartridge and of course there were the annoying snaps, crackles, and pops, which reminded me of why I abandoned LPs in the first place. The bottom line here is although LPs might sound better, they might not; therefore, right now, I'm mostly pursuing multi-channel SACDs, since satisfaction is more assured from that route than from LP indulgence: no pops, gapless play, more dynamic range, more convenient, more breadth and depth, and less expensive than new LPs.

 

[David Harper]

I eventually decided that while the new LP's I bought did sound nice that they (and the TT, tonearm,etc.) were more trouble than they were worth.
Also IMO I think that CD is capable of sounding much better than it usually does if only the producers of them would stop destroying the sound quality with compression.

 

[Mikado463]

A few of the new LP's I bought sound really good. One of them is Eric Clapton "unplugged". I think it may sound better than any CD I own. Which doesn't make sense to me. I know that CD should, in theory, be superior to vinyl in sq so how can this LP sound better? Maybe the mastering? Something else going on? Maybe the vinyl recording is uncompressed? Or maybe the LP was mastered on analog equipment from a master tape?

good valid questions to which you're on the right track to answering them.
I'll take this over to the 'Vinyl News' thread for further ................

 

[davidscott]

I like your post. It's your conclusions qualified with "maybe" which describes the performance as possibly being better or worse than another means to the music that I like because it's a reasonable assessment. My opinion of LPs as a means to enjoy recorded music has some history in its making. Back in 1975 I purchased a Sony PS-4750 Turntable and a Shure V15 III Cartridge, which I still use to this day; but, somewhere in the mid 80's I abandoned my TT for a CD Player, finding it more attractive than my TT for recorded music pleasure, in all manner that attractive can be discerned. At any rate, about 3 years ago, I became aware of the LP revival. From what I read it appeared that folks were getting more pleasure from LPs than CDs. This made me think I might want to re-visit the vinyl medium. After all "maybe" the technology of record spinning had improved and I had missed it. So, I went to the book store and purchased a handful of new LPs and ordered a new Technics SL-1210GR from B&H, which upon arrival, I fitted a Shure V15V-MR/Jico SAS cartridge/stylus assembly. I was disappointed. First, I did not perceive the new record playing outfit sounded any better than my 43 year old Sony TT with its cartridge and of course there were the annoying snaps, crackles, and pops, which reminded me of why I abandoned LPs in the first place. The bottom line here is although LPs might sound better, they might not; therefore, right now, I'm mostly pursuing multi-channel SACDs, since satisfaction is more assured from that route than from LP indulgence: no pops, gapless play, more dynamic range, more convenient, more breadth and depth, and less expensive than new LPs.

That Shure V15 III was an excellent cart. I owned one in the early 80s then upgraded to a IV. The III sounded better IMHO...

 

[sterling shoote]

That Shure V15 III was an excellent cart. I owned one in the early 80s then upgraded to a IV. The III sounded better IMHO...

I have no experience with the IV; but, have seen comments similar to yours about it. I recently damaged the cantilever of my V15III so it will get a Jico SAS stylus as soon as I can afford it. Until then I've got 2 V15V-MR's, one with original stylus and another with a SAS stylus which I mostly use; however, I sometimes use a Shure M97eX and an Ortofon 2M Red for double bass emphasis from my Diana Krall albums when listening at low volume. I've got the M97 aligned for the Sony and the 2M Red aligned for the Technics.

 

[David Harper]

I had a Stanton 681 EEE. Loved that cart. And a Micro-Seiki MA 505 tonearm on a Micro DD40 TT

 

[pharaon]

Hi guys,
What a thread!
I was starting to enter this audiophile world until I read few threads on this forum (very glad I found it ) with critical view to sound quality comparing AVRs vs stereo amplifiers. I do also think, that SQ may depend JUST in rare cases due to speakers specifications (i.e. low impedance, which some/most(?) AVRs can't handle).
Maybe someone could help me with my case, because it takes me hours everyday reading posts all over the forums and still I don't know what to do
Question: AVR Denon X3500, speakers - Focal Aria 948 (nom.impedance 8, minimum dip to 2.9). How can I tell that my AVR is driving them properly or is too weak? Do I need external amp, like Emotiva A-300 to drive them?
They do sound very good indeed, but maybe with external amp SQ would be better?

P.S. I switched from basic Denon X1500 to X3500 (mainly because of pre-outs, if I needed power amp) and felt difference in dynamics watching movies. Placebo?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi guys,
What a thread!
I was starting to enter this audiophile world until I read few threads on this forum (very glad I found it ) with critical view to sound quality comparing AVRs vs stereo amplifiers. I do also think, that SQ may depend JUST in rare cases due to speakers specifications (i.e. low impedance, which some/most(?) AVRs can't handle).
Maybe someone could help me with my case, because it takes me hours everyday reading posts all over the forums and still I don't know what to do
Question: AVR Denon X3500, speakers - Focal Aria 948 (nom.impedance 8, minimum dip to 2.9). How can I tell that my AVR is driving them properly or is too weak? Do I need external amp, like Emotiva A-300 to drive them?
They do sound very good indeed, but maybe with external amp SQ would be better?

P.S. I switched from basic Denon X1500 to X3500 (mainly because of pre-outs, if I needed power amp) and felt difference in dynamics watching movies. Placebo?

Use one of these calculators. Need listening distance, speaker sensitivity, how many speakers, if they are close to walls or corners. How loud do you listen? Measure the volume with SPL meter.

Peak SPL Calculator

Most of the time, speakers need no more than 2W to produce a volume of 85dB.

 

[pharaon]

Use one of these calculators. Need listening distance, speaker sensitivity, how many speakers, if they are close to walls or corners. How loud do you listen? Measure the volume with SPL meter.

Distance 10-12ft; sensitivity 92.5; lets take just 2 Aria's in stereo (Pure direct); they are close - up to 1ft (it's good for those speakers).
I rarely listen above 90db (movies), music (up to 75db).
Btw, my room is 400 sq.ft with 12 feet ceilings.

And lets take, that I'll add 3 more speakers (center + 2 surrounds) to this set. Maybe then Denon will struggle?

Most of the time, speakers need no more than 2W to produce a volume of 85dB.

But what about impedance? Most guys (audiophiles I think ) say, that for these speakers you REALLY need amplifier with low impedance capabilities AND good power (like 200 WPC or more )

 

[PENG]

Distance 10-12ft; sensitivity 92.5; lets take just 2 Aria's in stereo (Pure direct); they are close - up to 1ft (it's good for those speakers).
I rarely listen above 90db (movies), music (up to 75db).
Btw, my room is 400 sq.ft with 12 feet ceilings.

Please clarify what you meant by "they are close - up to 1ft...., and when you say 90 dB and 75 dB for movies/music, do you mean the average spl, or peak (max peak you would have in movies and music)?

THX standard says for movies, allow 20 dB headroom for peaks, for music, 6 dB peaks are quite common, 12 dB are not uncommon, 20 dB's are rare, depending on the genre. If you are not sure, then I would give you an answer cased on a 20 dB peak allowance.

And lets take, that I'll add 3 more speakers (center + 2 surrounds) to this set. Maybe then Denon will struggle?

Online calculators normally calculate based on 1 speaker. The one ADTG linked let you input the number of speakers. You may be 3 dB more spl if two speakers are playing, but it depends on your room, speakers, so in my opinion, it is better just assume one speaker first and go from there.

But what about impedance? Most guys (audiophiles I think ) say, that for these speakers you REALLY need amplifier with low impedance capabilities AND good power (like 200 WPC or more )

While those "most guys" are right in a general sense, it "REALLY" depends on the individual's setup, for argument sake, any mid range AVR, even the light weight AVR-X3500H can drive 4 ohm or even 2 ohm speakers, depending on each individual's conditions.

Sorry about the long answer, but there are no much hearsay on the internet, it is hard to counter so many misconceptions and confusing information with a one liner.

As soon as you provide the clarification on the "....1ft...." and whether you desired spl are average or peaks, I can use my spreadsheet calculator to give you a good idea whether you AVR is struggling. For now, suffice to say, they might have been, but it depends, yes "REALLY"..

 

[highfigh]

90 pages and still going- a new indoor record.

 

[Kleinst]

Use one of these calculators. Need listening distance, speaker sensitivity, how many speakers, if they are close to walls or corners. How loud do you listen? Measure the volume with SPL meter.

Peak SPL Calculator

Most of the time, speakers need no more than 2W to produce a volume of 85dB.

Most of the time, speakers need no more than 2W to produce a volume of 85dB.

This is an amazing point. I wish there was a meter that would tell us exactly how many watts each channel is getting so we could understand how many watts we truly need and what a given output sounds/feels like... I do appreciate the calculator that PENG shared but seeing would really be believing.

 

[pharaon]

Please clarify what you meant by "they are close - up to 1ft...., and when you say 90 dB and 75 dB for movies/music, do you mean the average spl, or peak ?

Sorry, firsts posts in Audio community, so don't know how to be precisely correct
Speakers are 0.67ft from the wall. They are in open space, side walls are 6.5ft apart.
dB ratings are peak, average would be 80/65 movies/music

....argument sake, any mid range AVR, even the light weight AVR-X3500H can drive 4 ohm or even 2 ohm speakers, depending on each individual's conditions.

^^ That's what I had doubt about, because couldn't find an answer, thanks!

As soon as you provide the clarification on the "....1ft...." and whether you desired spl are average or peaks, I can use my spreadsheet calculator to give you a good idea whether you AVR is struggling. For now, suffice to say, they might have been, but it depends, yes "REALLY"..

Appreciate your help!

 

[RichB]

Please clarify what you meant by "they are close - up to 1ft...., and when you say 90 dB and 75 dB for movies/music, do you mean the average spl, or peak (max peak you would have in movies and music)?

THX standard says for movies, allow 20 dB headroom for peaks, for music, 6 dB peaks are quite common, 12 dB are not uncommon, 20 dB's are rare, depending on the genre. If you are not sure, then I would give you an answer cased on a 20 dB peak allowance.



Online calculators normally calculate based on 1 speaker. The one ADTG linked let you input the number of speakers. You may be 3 dB more spl if two speakers are playing, but it depends on your room, speakers, so in my opinion, it is better just assume one speaker first and go from there.



While those "most guys" are right in a general sense, it "REALLY" depends on the individual's setup, for argument sake, any mid range AVR, even the light weight AVR-X3500H can drive 4 ohm or even 2 ohm speakers, depending on each individual's conditions.

Sorry about the long answer, but there are no much hearsay on the internet, it is hard to counter so many misconceptions and confusing information with a one liner.

As soon as you provide the clarification on the "....1ft...." and whether you desired spl are average or peaks, I can use my spreadsheet calculator to give you a good idea whether you AVR is struggling. For now, suffice to say, they might have been, but it depends, yes "REALLY"..

As you know, I measured 86 dB at my 11 foot listening position with both Salon2's playing. That would point a limited power requirement.
I have listened to the Yamaha 100 WPC AVR (I forgot the model now) driving the Salon2s and it was meh.
Perhaps, I will always be an amp guy but there is a value in an amplifier that remains linear under load.

I suspect that in most rooms, the rated SPL (with honest ratings) translate into the listening position from 2 speakers with room gain.
When I first bought the AHB2, the Salon2s were driven by a single amp. These are 180 WPC into 4 ohms and watching Aquaman loud was not clipping the amp driving the Salon2s full range. I was not clipping for my normal loud listening levels for music and movies.

Here is a description by Benchmark's John Siau of the clipping indicators on the AHB2:

If the clip lights on the AHB2 are not turning on, the transients are not being clipped, attenuated, or distorted. The clip lights have a timer that keeps them on for at least 1/4 second so that every clip event is always visible. If the lights are not turning on, the output is following the input exactly. Remember that the AHB2 also has a 200 kHz bandwidth, so it also follows high-frequency transients with precision and with phase accuracy.

I wish all amps and AVRs had clip indication.

- Rich

 

[PENG]

As you know, I measured 86 dB at my 11 foot listening position with both Salon2's playing. That would point a limited power requirement.
I have listened to the Yamaha 100 WPC AVR (I forgot the model now) driving the Salon2s and it was meh.
Perhaps, I will always be an amp guy but there is a value in an amplifier that remains linear under load.

I suspect that in most rooms, the rated SPL (with honest ratings) translate into the listening position from 2 speakers with room gain.
When I first bought the AHB2, the Salon2s were driven by a single amp. These are 180 WPC into 4 ohms and watching Aquaman loud was not clipping the amp driving the Salon2s full range. I was not clipping for my normal loud listening levels for music and movies.

Here is a description by Benchmark's John Siau of the clipping indicators on the AHB2:


I wish all amps and AVRs had clip indication.

- Rich

Agreed, that's why I created my own spl/power requirements spreadsheet calculator that is much more flexible, to allow for different conditions.

I have amps that have clip lights, one being the Bryston 4BSST, never seen them on so I guess I have no experience in "clipped" sound lol.. Good to know you big Salon2 has not pushed the little AHB2 amp to clipping...yet