Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

[Gmoney]

The reliability of a system such as an AVR is calculated by the product of the reliability of each component required for the system to function properly.
I am admittedly grossly over simplifying this, but if we say that an AVR has a signal path that involves 25 components and the reliability if each component (say lasting 5 years) is 99% we would calculate the system reliability (for that signal path) at 0.99 raised to the 25th power = 0.778, or we would expect 22.2% of AVR's to fail within those 5 years. And that is for just one signal path (keeping it simple)!
Obviously an AVR/AVP (and especially this one) has more than 25 components that are critical to functioning and some of those components like a piece of wire have nearly 100% reliability (unless failure elsewhere results in an over-current condition, but the other failure already resulted in a system failure).
However, 99% reliability for 5 years is not a given.
If we have 50 components (still way shy of your Denon) at 99% we would get 60.5% reliability for the system.
This is my effort at explaining why this incredibly complex unit seemed doomed to failure (disproportionate to a more typical AVR/AVP).

@KEW, your a Engineer? Audio? Electrical? Was just polking fun about the "Sausage" thing on that other thread. When I was in the oilfield and a Engineer in petroleum would come on deck some had a sense of humor some didn't. Anyways if you still mad or not here's Mud in ya eye! get it? We had a lot of "Mud" Engineers in the Petroleum industry. Oh and the next time you post up I'm "Worthless" or was it "Useless" look out! I have a bunch of minions that'll follow you for the rest if your days on this Planet! Have a good one KEW.

 

[KEW]

@KEW, your a Engineer? Audio? Electrical?

BS in Mechanical
MS in Industrial with emphases in Human Factors and Engineering Economics.

 

[KEW]

@KEWWas just polking fun about the "Sausage" thing on that other thread.

I know, I got a kick out of it!
More so, because it seemed obvious you were obsessing over your upcoming weekend festivities when your mind went from my comment about the smell of chocolate, beer, and sausage in the "old world" part of Milwaukee, to dicks!

 

[Gmoney]

I know, I got a kick out of it!
More so, because it seemed obvious you were obsessing over your upcoming weekend festivities when your mind went from my comment about the smell of chocolate, beer, and sausage in the "old world" part of Milwaukee, to dicks!

Lol, @KEW Lol I don't really have No Hookers are escorts lady's. Just trying to get Laughs out of you guys on AH even if it's at my Expense. I'll even play off as a "Victim" on AH. Man! My gig is up because I let the cat out of the bag! But you already knew that about me. But umm yeah I use to have a few of them Special ladies would like to share thats just how the Real Oilfield is. You have the oilfield than you have how the oilfield really is. And yes escorts are a part of the oilfield, Think like them Pro sports guys lots of money right? Escorts those kind anyways love only two thing's lots of money and yep dicks. Well maybe 3 things.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I believe this is true. Obviously, no one knew that at the time it was introduced, but I believe Denon's prediction models about life between failures was a big "not applicable" for long term (say over 4-5 years) on a unit which was this far removed from their previous models (mostly in complexity). I think it is still very likely that heat was the cause of the failure, whether it is a component sandwiched between other items such that it got no air flow (with or without an added fan), or they didn't have room to fit a heat sink where they ideally might, or the "faulty" component was being pushed beyond it's actual ability to sustain function.
As an engineer that has studied reliability, when I see something so complex, I am often more impressed that it consistently worked for 8 years than that something went wrong. (I will add a post on reliability below)
We certainly expect 8 years out of our audio gear (especially high end audio gear), but it is a testimony to the engineers working on this monstrosity that it made it through initial burn in, much more that it lasted 8 years!
I would guess that their reliability testing established with good confidence that it would make it past the 3 year warranty period, and Denon decided to "spin the wheel"!


Certainly, this is true. There are plenty of old amps and receivers that have lasted 30 years or longer without fans, so it is hard to imagine a fan would have made a big difference!
However, it is fair to believe those units have adequate cooling via heat sinks and natural (no fan) air flow.
But your statement was in reference specifically to "very hot" units:

Honestly, I believe there may be no proofs specific to AVR/AVP because the relationship between electronics and heat (and cooling designs to abate these issues) was well established decades before AVR/AVPs existed.
But as I asked in my earlier post, let me know which aspect you think is suspect, so I can target that in my response.

When I finally threw in the towel with the AVP-A1, I decided to gut the beast. So I took out every single part- screw for screw, board for board. It probably took me 2 hours. It's absolutely no wonder they couldn't fix this thing. There are just way too many parts in there.

It should have never been built.

But I've seen online pictures of some other big expensive AVRs, and they don't look that much differently than the AVP-A1.

I see companies putting 11Ch and 13Ch of amps inside AVRs that look kind of similar to the interior of the AVP-A1HDCI.

As far as "proof" and all that, I'm probably thinking too much like a clinician with drug studies. In the medical field, if you can't show studies to prove something, there is no proof. It's NOT like "Innocent until proven Guilty"! If you want to say that fans improve reliability, the burden of proof is on you.

But I don't think anyone is going to start a long-term THREAD about LONG-TERM reliability with fans vs no-fans. And then maybe in 5 years we could see some data and do a Retrospective study?

Regardless of any "proof", I think it does make sense to use fans if your AVR or amp is hot enough.

So I would still recommend the use of fans for hot-operating components.

At the same time, I can't help thinking like a clinician and play devils advocate and say that fans SHOULD help, but I don't know for sure it will significantly increase the life of the component since I can't find any online retrospective studies on this.

It's like saying there is no proof that Yamaha is #1 in reliability because we can't find any online retrospective studies. It might be #1, but there is no proof.

The fans Should improve component life, but there are no retrospective studies.

 

[Gmoney]

@AcuDefTechGuy, Yeah! "the Burden of proof is on you" @KEW Kind of like better to be judged by 12 of your Peers than to be carried by six of your friends huh? Same can be said, better to buy One Yamaha than Six of Denon, Onkyo, Marantz, NAD, Pioneer, Emotive.

 

[KEW]

It should have never been built.

Given that it is no longer built, I think Denon probably agrees with you (with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight), but if companies took the attitude that they should not engage in "speculative" endeavors, the tech world would be a lonely place!

But I've seen online pictures of some other big expensive AVRs, and they don't look that much differently than the AVP-A1.

Please share!
Neither of us knows enough about electronics to really analyze the designs, but I like to see what other companies are producing (and is apparently a viable product for them) at the upper end!
The most "high end" unit I have is an Integra HDC-80.2 AVP. I found a photo of the 80.3:

It is certainly busy, but not near so crowded as the AVP-A1!

As far as "proof" and all that, I'm probably thinking too much like a clinician with drug studies. In the medical field, if you can't show studies to prove something, there is no proof. It's NOT like "Innocent until proven Guilty"! If you want to say that fans improve reliability, the burden of proof is on you.

Yeah, we are not talking about swallowing pills (although you may fell like Denon gave you an AVP-A1 enema)

There is plenty of proof that heat is the enemy of electronics and it seems obvious that better cooling would reduce that heat. The proof is out there, but from an engineering/design standpoint we don't need to do a study specific to AVR/AVP because we already know these as fundamental factors of durability.

I can design a wheel bearing for a car that uses fuel cells based on data accrued from years of designing wheel bearings for regular cars. I would not waste time reinventing the science behind bearing design.
Similarly, there was no reason to reinvent established understandings of the thermal behavior of electronic components when we started using them in AVR/AVP as opposed to a stereo receiver.
There may be a new IC used in that AVP and in that case we would need to gather parameters for the specific IC (this is commonly determined and provided by the manufacturer of the IC) such as rate of thermal output and maximum stable operating temperature. But from there we would apply known design principles to establish viable durability.

Regardless of any "proof", I think it does make sense to use fans if your AVR or amp is hot enough.

So I would still recommend the use of fans for hot-operating components.

Glad to here it because I thought you were saying there was no reason to believe fans have any effect!

At the same time, I can't help thinking like a clinician and play devils advocate and say that fans SHOULD help, but I don't know for sure it will significantly increase the life of the component since I can't find any online retrospective studies on this.

Muse as much as you like, but don't print it without making it very clear to readers that you are musing!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

BS in Mechanical
MS in Industrial with emphases in Human Factors and Engineering Economics.

So you are the guy all the technicians complain about!

 

[Gmoney]

So you are the guy all the technicians complain about!

lol

 

[Gmoney]

When I finally threw in the towel with the AVP-A1, I decided to gut the beast. So I took out every single part- screw for screw, board for board. It probably took me 2 hours. It's absolutely no wonder they couldn't fix this thing. There are just way too many parts in there.

It should have never been built.

But I've seen online pictures of some other big expensive AVRs, and they don't look that much differently than the AVP-A1.

I see companies putting 11Ch and 13Ch of amps inside AVRs that look kind of similar to the interior of the AVP-A1HDCI.

As far as "proof" and all that, I'm probably thinking too much like a clinician with drug studies. In the medical field, if you can't show studies to prove something, there is no proof. It's NOT like "Innocent until proven Guilty"! If you want to say that fans improve reliability, the burden of proof is on you.

But I don't think anyone is going to start a long-term THREAD about LONG-TERM reliability with fans vs no-fans. And then maybe in 5 years we could see some data and do a Retrospective study?

Regardless of any "proof", I think it does make sense to use fans if your AVR or amp is hot enough.

So I would still recommend the use of fans for hot-operating components.

At the same time, I can't help thinking like a clinician and play devils advocate and say that fans SHOULD help, but I don't know for sure it will significantly increase the life of the component since I can't find any online retrospective studies on this.

It like saying there is no proof that Yamaha is #1 in reliability because we can't find any online retrospective studies. It might be #1, but there is no proof.

The fans Should improve component life, but there are no retrospective studies.

lol

 

[snakeeyes]

I wonder if the 2008 Z11 would have lasted longer.

I’m sure it would have been better to have something to resell before buying the next AVR or AVP though.

 

[Gmoney]

So you are the guy all the technicians complain about!

Technicians,

 

[Gmoney]

I wonder if the 2008 Z11 would have lasted longer.

I’m sure it would have been better to have something to resell before buying the next AVR or AVP though.

Yeah! it would've been huh? but it lasted 8 years!

 

[Gmoney]

So you are the guy all the technicians complain about!

Where have you been! You signed up back in 2005!! Post up ole timer!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Given that it is no longer built, I think Denon probably agrees with you (with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight), but if companies took the attitude that they should not engage in "speculative" endeavors, the tech world would be a lonely place!


Please share!
Neither of us knows enough about electronics to really analyze the designs, but I like to see what other companies are producing (and is apparently a viable product for them) at the upper end!
The most "high end" unit I have is an Integra HDC-80.2 AVP. I found a photo of the 80.3:

It is certainly busy, but not near so crowded as the AVP-A1!


Yeah, we are not talking about swallowing pills (although you may fell like Denon gave you an AVP-A1 enema)

There is plenty of proof that heat is the enemy of electronics and it seems obvious that better cooling would reduce that heat. The proof is out there, but from an engineering/design standpoint we don't need to do a study specific to AVR/AVP because we already know these as fundamental factors of durability.

I can design a wheel bearing for a car that uses fuel cells based on data accrued from years of designing wheel bearings for regular cars. I would not waste time reinventing the science behind bearing design.
Similarly, there was no reason to reinvent established understandings of the thermal behavior of electronic components when we started using them in AVR/AVP as opposed to a stereo receiver.
There may be a new IC used in that AVP and in that case we would need to gather parameters for the specific IC (this is commonly determined and provided by the manufacturer of the IC) such as rate of thermal output and maximum stable operating temperature. But from there we would apply known design principles to establish viable durability.


Glad to here it because I thought you were saying there was no reason to believe fans have any effect!


Muse as much as you like, but don't print it without making it very clear to readers that you are musing!

Yeah, on second thought, I don't think any AVRs look anything like the AVP-A1HD either.

Yamaha RX-A3080:

Denon X8500:

AVP-A1:

 

[Gmoney]

Yeah, on second thought, I don't think any AVRs look anything like the AVP-A1HD either.

Yamaha RX-A3080:

Denon X8500:

AVP-A1:

Not even close between the two umm three.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Where have you been! You signed up back in 2005!! Post up ole timer!

Way wack in the wild west days of AH...

There are a handful of us that still post. Some more just lurk.

If you want to wind this place up real good just feed the monkey...

 

[Gmoney]

Way wack in the wild west days of AH...

There are a handful of us that still post. Some more just lurk.

If you want to wind this place up real good just feed the monkey...

@STRONGBADF1, Has it always been like this on AH? My 1st profile was back in 2012 or 2011 If I remember right. "Feed the Monkey" nice. It's getting to the point if you postup anything some just can't help themselves with Condescending and belittling trolling of personal Bullying attacks. But it's the internet.

 

[3db]

Just to give you some background.. The RX-V1900 is used in my second system. I own 3 different models of PSB speaker pairs for the main left and right speakers. I have run mulitpoint (3 of them) YPAO flat for each pair and have stored the results into the 3 system memories. The 4th system memory is set up with just bass management and no room correction when I want to listen to music with speakers and sub.

I just bought another pair of speakers and the 4th system memory will be changed to store the results for YPAO:FLAT for the 4th speaker pair. This will force me to use memory 5 and or 6 which are not directly accessable on the remote like system memory 1-4 . I have to go into the AVR menu, choose system memory, and then scroll through until I reach memory 5 and or 6.

Everything I do is through the logitech harmony remotes and I have set up command sequences to mimick going into the AVR menu and navigating to memory 5 or 6. I also found through experimentation that I need to go back to the AVR menu to restore system memory 1-4 because selecting memory settings1-4 are not effective when the AVR was made to memory 5. The AVR just wont switch back out of memory 5 or 6 when choosing system memory 1-4 on the remote.

Has anyone encountered this behavior before? Is this normal? Why offer memory 5 and 6 when it cant be directly accessed via the remote?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just to give you some background.. The RX-V1900 is used in my second system. I own 3 different models of PSB speaker pairs for the main left and right speakers. I have run mulitpoint (3 of them) YPAO flat for each pair and have stored the results into the 3 system memories. The 4th system memory is set up with just bass management and no room correction when I want to listen to music with speakers and sub.

I just bought another pair of speakers and the 4th system memory will be changed to store the results for YPAO:FLAT for the 4th speaker pair. This will force me to use memory 5 and or 6 which are not directly accessable on the remote like system memory 1-4 . I have to go into the AVR menu, choose system memory, and then scroll through until I reach memory 5 and or 6.

Everything I do is through the logitech harmony remotes and I have set up command sequences to mimick going into the AVR menu and navigating to memory 5 or 6. I also found through experimentation that I need to go back to the AVR menu to restore system memory 1-4 because selecting memory settings1-4 are not effective when the AVR was made to memory 5. The AVR just wont switch back out of memory 5 or 6 when choosing system memory 1-4 on the remote.

Has anyone encountered this behavior before? Is this normal? Why offer memory 5 and 6 when it cant be directly accessed via the remote?

You're a lot more advanced than I am on these features. I don't even have 1 Memory saved, much less 5 or 6 Memory saved.