Yamaha Owners’ Thread (AVR, Pre-pro, Amp)

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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Seems like more than a few Denon/Marantz owners are using their AVR with external amps and putting the AVR in ECO mode plus running fans as well. I guess they don’t want to use their AVR to cook eggs or keep their coffee warm... LOL :)
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Seems like more than a few Denon/Marantz owners are using their AVR with external amps and putting the AVR in ECO mode plus running fans as well. I guess they don’t want to use their AVR to cook eggs or keep their coffee warm... LOL :)
Hey I tried to cook a egg once on my Onkyo NR818 and guess what? didn't cook fully but I was still able to eat the egg after think like over easy. I put some Aluminum foil on top of the AVR used a small egg and it Actually cooked the egg but not to where the Yoke was fully cooked the way I like them. :D made a lil Basket just enough to hold egg with the foil. Oh forgot to mention I was Stone at a time and had that Onkyo kicked up at -10dbs than at +3 for a full CD than took it down some than back up to +3, 4 Ohm load them Polk LSi-15's :DVolume up for full cd 6 disc player had Onkyo's 6 disc CD player at the time. Not joking really did that. That bit$h got Hot! couldn't hold your hand on the top.
 
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P

pcosmic

Audioholic
Is anyone else a li'l annoyed by the lack of a 50hz crossover point in Yamaha receivers? The available crossover points are 40, 60, 80,90, 100, 110, etc...No 50 hz unless i missed a firmware update or something....
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
RX-A8. MSRP $3,000. Still has the Main L/R XLR Balanced Inputs and Outputs. HDMI 2.1 x 7 Inputs.



Interesting that they have down-sized the information window similar to Marantz. I only see it as a problem if you don't have a TV around.
I do like the look, but am wondering if it has any controls or added display real estate hidden behind a fold-down panel. If not, they are being adventurous!!!
I'm being a little facetious here as I am always a little amused by how tightly the AVR manufacturers match each other. Add a feature here and the other companies are very likely to have an equivalent feature on next years model. It is a lot like an arms race!
The Marantz "Port window" models have a full size display hidden behind a panel (along with the controls). I doubt anyone ever uses that display or those controls! If Yamaha is "upping the ante" it is one of those benchmarks in the evolution of AVR's. Are people ready for this? I don't think people open those panels (except to plug in the Audyssey mic), but I also know people are reluctant to change and having the option is reassuring even if you never expect to use it.
I also know the Japanese are fairly conservative, so Kudos to Yamaha for being a little adventurous!
 
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Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Interesting that they have down-sized the information window similar to Marantz. I only see it as a problem if you don't have a TV around.
I do like the look, but am wondering if it has any controls or added display real estate hidden behind a fold-down panel. If not, they are being adventurous!!!
I'm being a little facetious here as I am always a little incredulous of how tightly the AVR manufacturers match each other. Add a feature here and the other companies are very likely to have an equivalent feature on next years model.
The Marantz "Port window" models have a full size display hidden behind a panel (along with the controls). I doubt anyone ever uses that display or those controls! If Yamaha is "upping the ante" it is one of those benchmarks in the evolution of AVR's. Are people ready for this? I don't think people open those panels (except to plug in the Audyssey mic), but I also know people are reluctant to change and having the option is reassuring even if you never expect to use it.
I also know the Japanese are fairly conservative, so Kudos to Yamaha for being a little adventurous!
@KEW, one would think it would have to huh? Front panel drops down? I would still want that say just incase remote stops working till you get a replacement. Sure theres the Yamaha App thing but still like you stated Reassurance goes along way.
 
adk highlander

adk highlander

pessimistic optimist
Question on the new RX. I am a fan of the look. Can you assign the front amp channels to more surrounds if you are using an external amp via the XLR connections?
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Interesting that they have down-sized the information window similar to Marantz. I only see it as a problem if you don't have a TV around.
I do like the look, but am wondering if it has any controls or added display real estate hidden behind a fold-down panel. If not, they are being adventurous!!!
I'm being a little facetious here as I am always a little incredulous of how tightly the AVR manufacturers match each other. Add a feature here and the other companies are very likely to have an equivalent feature on next years model.
The Marantz "Port window" models have a full size display hidden behind a panel (along with the controls). I doubt anyone ever uses that display or those controls! If Yamaha is "upping the ante" it is one of those benchmarks in the evolution of AVR's. Are people ready for this? I don't think people open those panels (except to plug in the Audyssey mic), but I also know people are reluctant to change and having the option is reassuring even if you never expect to use it.
I also know the Japanese are fairly conservative, so Kudos to Yamaha for being a little adventurous!
I’m not sure I need a ton of info from AVR display. My older 2060 is usually saying “Fire TV Stick” or “Sony Blu-ray” and those things are obvious. LOL :)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But I have not seen any proofs using fans on VERY HOT AVR/AVP will increase longevity/reliability.
Seriously?
Have you looked for proof, or are you saying that no one has shoved a research paper in your face?
I think most readers here know better, but there may be some readers who think you have knowledge that there is no relation between high operating temp and early failures.
Sorry, but I can't let a statement this misinformed stand without challenge!

I used 3 x 120mm fans atop my Denon AVP-A1HDCI and kept the room cool with A/C. And the Denon still broke after 8 years.

Grassy's AVP-A1HDCI also broke after about 8 years. He didn't use any fans. So fans or no fans, it still broke after 8 years.
From my perspective, the AVP-A1HDCI was essentially an experimental unit (in 2008, but I think it may be by today's standards, as well)! Denon did the testing they normally do to attempt to establish durability, but if you are honest, you should recognize that there is likely good reason that they did not continue to make it and that no other manufacturer has attempted to replicate an equivalently advanced unit (including fully balanced circuitry throughout)!
It lasted well beyond the warranty period, but once Denon had experience with this unit being "in the field" for a few years, they "got the hell out"! Even more telling, they did not stock the components required to repair them.
It obviously has reliability issues that they did not anticipate!
If you want to declare that Denon did not do enough research/validation before they brought it to market, that is fair. Developing a new product like this always gets into interesting questions of risk vs advancement.

But to present such an atypical "outliar" product as a representative sample for Denon's (or anyone's) AVRs is misguided!
Does this look like the inside of any normal AVR/AVP?
Those transformers are huge for it not to have power amps!
It was an ambitious product that didn't work out for Denon, but I respect them for trying and feel compassion for the adventurous buyers (like you) who also "speculated" and "lost"!
(and I also respect the hazard of buying bleeding edge technology):oops:




Edit:
Just to be clear, I am not arguing that Denon has better reliability than Yamaha; only that this particular model should not be used as representative of mainstream electronics from any company. Because it ultimately flopped, it is an "insane" product. Had it succeeded, it would have been a brilliant groundbreaking product! Just don't associate it's failure characteristics with a Denon AVR-X4700H or a Yamaha RX-A3080 (or any other mainstream AVP/AVR)!

For comparison, here is the back panel of the Yamaha's most advanced AVP (12 years later), the CX-A5200:


And Marantz's most advanced AVP (also 12 years later), the AV-8805:
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I’m not sure I need a ton of info from AVR display. My older 2060 is usually saying “Fire TV Stick” or “Sony Blu-ray” and those things are obvious. LOL :)
Well, I cut my "AVR teeth" with a Marantz SR-6001 used for a 2.2 stereo setup without a TV screen.
Running setup and then reconfiguring the sub crossovers, etc involved a quiet room with the manual in one hand while pushing the buttons under the panel with the other, and having never used an AVR before I still wasn't confident I was in the right place (sometimes I wasn't)!
I think I would have been "shooting in the dark" if the AVR did not have a full display!
3 years later, when I connected a TV, the OSD was a revelation of how easy it was to learn and understand the menu structure!
With OSD, it is a moot point, and certainly for 99.9% of the time, you need very little feedback (source and volume are the only two that I use regularly), but without OSD, that other 0.1% will bust your balls (not so bad if you already are familiar with the menu structure)!
But if you read my post, I did say I doubt anyone ever uses the controls or display hidden behind the panel (because most have a TV/OSD)!
 
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S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Well, I cut my "AVR teeth" with a Marantz SR-6001 used for a 2.2 stereo setup without a TV screen.
Running setup and then reconfiguring the sub crossovers, etc involved a quiet room with the manual in one hand while pushing the buttons under the panel with the other, and having never used an AVR before I still wasn't confident I was in the right place (sometimes I wasn't)!
I think I would have been "shooting in the dark" if the AVR did not have a full display!
3 years later, when I connected a TV, the OSD was a revelation of how easy it was to learn and understand the menu structure!
With OSD, it is a moot point, and certainly for 99.9% of the time, you need very little feedback (source and volume are the only two that I use regularly), but without OSD, that other 0.1% will bust your balls (not so bad if you already are familiar with the menu structure)!
But if you read my post, I did say I doubt anyone ever uses the controls or display hidden behind the panel (because most have a TV/OSD)!
Ya my Sonys and other Yamahas were like that in the 90s and early 2000s. My 2003 Yamaha RXV3300 was a lot to set up. :). Now that I have modern AVRs with TV/OSD plus iPhone or iPad, I sure won’t want to go back to the old days. LOL :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Seriously?
Have you looked for proof, or are you saying that no one has shoved a research paper in your face?
I think most readers here know better, but there may be some readers who think you have knowledge that there is no relation between high operating temp and early failures.
Sorry, but I can't let a statement this misinformed stand without challenge!


From my perspective, the AVP-A1HDCI was essentially an experimental unit (in 2008, but I think it may be by today's standards, as well)! Denon did the testing they normally do to attempt to establish durability, but if you are honest, you should recognize that there is likely good reason that they did not continue to make it and that no other manufacturer has attempted to replicate an equivalently advanced unit (including fully balanced circuitry throughout)!
It lasted well beyond the warranty period, but once Denon had experience with this unit being "in the field" for a few years, they "got the hell out"! Even more telling, they did not stock the components required to repair them.
It obviously has reliability issues that they did not anticipate!
If you want to declare that Denon did not do enough research/validation before they brought it to market, that is fair. Developing a new product like this always gets into interesting questions of risk vs advancement.

But to present such an atypical "outliar" product as a representative sample for Denon's (or anyone's) AVRs is misguided!
Does this look like the inside of any normal AVR/AVP?
Those transformers are huge for it not to have power amps!
It was an ambitious product that didn't work out for Denon, but I respect them for trying and feel compassion for the adventurous buyers (like you) who also "speculated" and "lost"!
(and I also respect the hazard of buying bleeding edge technology):oops:




Edit:
Just to be clear, I am not arguing that Denon has better reliability than Yamaha; only that this particular model should not be used as representative of mainstream electronics from any company. Because it ultimately flopped, it is an "insane" product. Had it succeeded, it would have been a brilliant groundbreaking product! Just don't associate it's failure characteristics with a Denon AVR-X4700H or a Yamaha RX-A3080 (or any other mainstream AVP/AVR)!

For comparison, here is the back panel of the Yamaha's most advanced AVP (12 years later), the CX-A5200:


And Marantz's most advanced AVP (also 12 years later), the AV-8805:
First of all, I am not going to get offended here. :D

But when I first read your response, I thought, “Wait, is this an old post/response?” It seems like deja vu. :D

Didn’t we already debate this topic a few weeks ago on another thread? :D

My ONLY point is that I cannot find any studies documenting the long-term effects of using external fans FOR or AGAINST.

If you find a study documenting the long-term effect of external fans, let us know.

I don’t have any studies showing that fans are useless either.

I brought up the AVP-A1 as an example because both Grassy and I owned one. And while I used 3 fans, he did not.

But, actually I think you are saying that the design of the AVP-A1HDCI was doomed anyway? It was going to be UNRELIABLE anyway? The design was such a HORSESHOED JUNGLED MESS, that nothing could have saved it from failing within 8 years?

So is it fair to say that some components will not be helped even with fans, some components may be helped with fans, and some components don’t even need fans? :D

My AVR-5308 had to be sent in to Panurgy under warranty (HDMI board). I also used fans for that Denon. But I don’t know of another member who also used the AVR-5308 without fans. So I cannot compare that.

Total lack of any kind of studies or documentations either way.

As I mentioned on the other deja vu thread, I did notice that when I used fans, I saw a lot of build up of DUST around the fans. And I thought, “Wait, the fan is pulling air through the chassis, but is it also pulling DUST through and INTO the chassis?”

IIRC, you mentioned using compressed air to clean the interior of the chassis? Which is good - if people actually do that. I say that because I have never done that to anything other than my PCs.

And then today, @Gmoney mentioned that the fans may also pull HUMIDITY through/into the chassis. How do you prevent the fans from pulling in HUMIDITY? Is this a major concern?

So on one hand, we have fans COOLING the chassis. OTOH, we have the fans pulling both DUST and HUMIDITY into the chassis.

The question becomes, does the benefit (chassis cooling) outweigh the risk (dust and humidity)?

Anyway, to wrap it up, I cannot fine PROOF simply because I cannot find any studies showing the long-term effects of using fans.

But if you can find one study, please share with us.

P.S. BTW, I hope one day Yamaha will completely remove all those old legacy connectors and just use HDMI and XLR on their AVP. :D
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
First of all, I am not going to get offended here. :D

But when I first read your response, I thought, “Wait, is this an old post/response?” It seems like deja vu. :D

Didn’t we already debate this topic a few weeks ago on another thread? :D

My ONLY point is that I cannot find any studies documenting the long-term effects of using external fans FOR or AGAINST.

If you find a study documenting the long-term effect of external fans, let us know.

I don’t have any studies showing that fans are useless either.

I brought up the AVP-A1 as an example because both Grassy and I owned one. And while I used 3 fans, he did not.

But, actually I think you are saying that the design of the AVP-A1HDCI was doomed anyway? It was going to be UNRELIABLE anyway? The design was such a HORSESHOED JUNGLED MESS, that nothing could have saved it from failing within 8 years?

So is it fair to say that some components will not be helped even with fans, some components may be helped with fans, and some components don’t even need fans? :D

My AVR-5308 had to be sent in to Panurgy under warranty (HDMI board). I also used fans for that Denon. But I don’t know of another member who also used the AVR-5308 without fans. So I cannot compare that.

Total lack of any kind of studies or documentations either way.

As I mentioned on the other deja vu thread, I did notice that when I used fans, I saw a lot of build up of DUST around the fans. And I thought, “Wait, the fan is pulling air through the chassis, but is it also pulling DUST through and INTO the chassis?”

IIRC, you mentioned using compressed air to clean the interior of the chassis? Which is good - if people actually do that. I say that because I have never done that to anything other than my PCs.

And then today, @Gmoney mentioned that the fans may also pull HUMIDITY through/into the chassis. How do you prevent the fans from pulling in HUMIDITY? Is this a major concern?

So on one hand, we have fans COOLING the chassis. OTOH, we have the fans pulling both DUST and HUMIDITY into the chassis.

The question becomes, does the benefit (chassis cooling) outweigh the risk (dust and humidity)?

Anyway, to wrap it up, I cannot fine PROOF simply because I cannot find any studies showing the long-term effects of using fans.

But if you can find one study, please share with us.

P.S. BTW, I hope one day Yamaha will completely remove all those old legacy connectors and just use HDMI and XLR on their AVP. :D
So does that mean you are going to save some energy and unplug the fan in your MX-A5200? :p
Why do you think Yamaha put it there?
As far as humidity, if the AVR has been in an air conditioned house and you repeatedly carry it outside into a humid area where condensate will form, that will destroy the unit in short order. However, if you keep the unit inside (unless you place it in front of an open window), you can figure the unit is normally warmer (even in standby) that the air around it, so there is no reason for condensate to form (the moisture stays in the air).
Extreme dust build up can be an issue (insulating heat sinks), but most of us live in homes with air filtration in the HVAC unit to keep it down. The fan blades on your computer are generally an excellent indicator of how big of an issue this is (assuming it has access to the same air as your AVR). They are black, so the dust shows and IME, there is always more dust on the fan than anywhere else because that is the place where more air is pulled through a smaller opening at higher velocity than anywhere else. If you look at an event like "Burning Man" located in the middle of the Arizona desert with 9 days of people, bikes, and crazy contraptions stirring up dust, it is apparent that dust is not a dire problem (watch videos and you will see dust caked up over all of the electronics at the DJ workstation)!

All in all, I would just look to pro-audio amps which almost always have fans - because of the lack of controls over the environment (often outside, or crammed in a racks with tons of other heat generating equipment) and reliability with a live audience is critical (pro-audio is an "industry" where word travels fast). Those units are pretty bullet proof.
It is hard to believe you don't think there is any established science/engineering/design knowledge behind using forced convection to prolong equipment life!

Let me better understand why you think fans might not help so I can address the specifics you don't get!
Which of the following do you see as suspect:
1) Heat is a if not the major enemy of electronics.
2) Heat transfer into the heat sinks is more efficient if the air temperature around the heat sinks is cooler.
3) Air outside an AVR is cooler than air inside the case.
4) A fan would not exchange outside air with air inside the case.
5) Something else? What?

We may have debated this elsewhere. If you were floating the idea that there was no reliability benefit associated with fans, I cannot in clear conscience let that fly!
If you are still of that belief, I was negligent because the info is out there (it might not be packaged as succinctly as you would like, but it is there). Let me know what aspect above you don't agree with so I can address it!
And, of course, there are caveats such the fan(s) should be located where the manufacturer placed cooling vents, but nothing that isn't common sense!
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Nothing above the middle rack when broiling your rec'r so Walter can "hear the fire". :)
Wish I had the opportunity to check out some of Walter's gear!
He definitely seemed to know how to cook an amp!
 
T

tealcomp

Audioholic Intern
True, Some on AH will want proof Barometric pressure, wind speed Ambient before and after. Umm Proof with specs and graphs. Like adding a fan will Prolong the longevity or increase power output with less or more Feedback or switch the amp from Class A a lot faster to Class AB. I wonder if fans Prolong the life of a class D amp? Can that be Measured? for a Proven fact that adding a fan actually extends the life of anything outside of just keeping it cool so it just runs at a normal Operating temperature? :D Very very subjective this audio thing is. Why not put fans in speakers right next to the driver's to help cool off voice coils? ;) I know they use that fluid that was Invented by NASA.
You guys kill me ;) Makes coming here fun though!
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
But, actually I think you are saying that the design of the AVP-A1HDCI was doomed anyway? It was going to be UNRELIABLE anyway? The design was such a HORSESHOED JUNGLED MESS, that nothing could have saved it from failing within 8 years?
I believe this is true. Obviously, no one knew that at the time it was introduced, but I believe Denon's prediction models about life between failures was a big "not applicable" for long term (say over 4-5 years) on a unit which was this far removed from their previous models (mostly in complexity). I think it is still very likely that heat was the cause of the failure, whether it is a component sandwiched between other items such that it got no air flow (with or without an added fan), or they didn't have room to fit a heat sink where they ideally might, or the "faulty" component was being pushed beyond it's actual ability to sustain function.
As an engineer that has studied reliability, when I see something so complex, I am often more impressed that it consistently worked for 8 years than that something went wrong. (I will add a post on reliability below)
We certainly expect 8 years out of our audio gear (especially high end audio gear), but it is a testimony to the engineers working on this monstrosity that it made it through initial burn in, much more that it lasted 8 years!
I would guess that their reliability testing established with good confidence that it would make it past the 3 year warranty period, and Denon decided to "spin the wheel"!

So is it fair to say that some components will not be helped even with fans, some components may be helped with fans, and some components don’t even need fans? :D
Certainly, this is true. There are plenty of old amps and receivers that have lasted 30 years or longer without fans, so it is hard to imagine a fan would have made a big difference!
However, it is fair to believe those units have adequate cooling via heat sinks and natural (no fan) air flow.
But your statement was in reference specifically to "very hot" units:
But I have not seen any proofs that using fans on VERY HOT AVR/AVP will increase longevity/reliability.
Honestly, I believe there may be no proofs specific to AVR/AVP because the relationship between electronics and heat (and cooling designs to abate these issues) was well established decades before AVR/AVPs existed.
But as I asked in my earlier post, let me know which aspect you think is suspect, so I can target that in my response.
 
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KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
As an engineer that has studied reliability, when I see something so complex, I am often more impressed that it consistently worked for 8 years than that something went wrong. (I will add a post on reliability below)
The reliability of a system such as an AVR is calculated by the product of the reliability of each component required for the system to function properly.
I am admittedly grossly over simplifying this, but if we say that an AVR has a signal path that involves 25 components and the odds (or reliability) of each component (say lasting 5 years) is 99% we would calculate the system reliability (for that signal path) at 0.99 raised to the 25th power = 0.778, or we would expect 22.2% of AVR's to fail within those 5 years. And that is for just one signal path (keeping it simple)!
Obviously an AVR/AVP (and especially this one) has more than 25 components that are critical to functioning and some of those components like a piece of wire have nearly 100% reliability (unless failure elsewhere results in an over-current condition, but the other failure already resulted in a system failure).
However, 99% reliability for 5 years is not a cakewalk either.
Now, we would consider failure of any signal path to be an AVR failure, so if there are 5 signal paths (there undoubtedly are many more, but there are also several shared components along these paths so I am "hedging" to keep it simple), we would calculate the product of "the reliability of each signal path" so with 5 paths of 25 components that are 99% reliable we would get 0.778 (calculated above) raised to the 5th power or a final system reliability of 28.5%.
So you hopefully can understand why I am impressed that they actually managed to get 8 years out of this "HORSESHOED JUNGLED MESS "!
 
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Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
You guys kill me ;) Makes coming here fun though!
@tealcomp, I like to have fun on AH, mess around try to anyways all in fun. Some on AH don't have a sense of humor or maybe it's taken out of context or miss understood and some get :mad: mad or say your lame dumb or useless you know the Usual name calling that should've been left in high school. Oh AH has it's fair share of internet keyboard cowboys aka Bullies with Belittling condescending comments they get mad if you call them out on it report you to a MOD cause their feelings get hurt. :D But for the most part AH is about the best Audio Forum on the net. Hey if I may ask, how are You liking your new Yamaha AVR? Post up some photos of your a3080! What speakers you have? Post up your thoughts.
 

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