B&W 603 S2 Hurting Ears

[Verdinut]

An alternative to TLS Guy's suggestion for 4 inch mid-range drivers would also be 5¼ inch mid-bass transducers.

I have been using a pair of Peerless 830991drivers in each front speaker cabinet. They have a 5¼ inch diameter cone and deliver a rather smooth frequency response to at least 5 KHz.
In my three way enclosures, they operate between 200 Hz and 2,900 Hz without any null within the set range of operation. They are amazing mid-range drivers. Parts-Express are out of stock for them at least until December, but Solen.ca has 51 of them in stock. I don't hesitate to recommend them for any serious DIY speaker builder.

 

[WildArticuno]

Over the years, B&W has used some confusing names for it's speakers. Do your 603 s2 speakers look like this?
View attachment 39964

Or this?
View attachment 39965

If they have those yellow Kevlar mid-range drivers, they are the cause of your ear distress. I thought B&W's new gray-colored replacement was intended to eliminate that problem. But James Larson's review and measurements indicate there still may be a problem with them.

See the broad peak around 3 kHz in the green trace below. That is caused by the mid-range driver going into break-up. To avoid that noise, B&W should make the mid-to-tweeter crossover frequency lower. But they didn't.

The best solution – and the most expensive – is to replace those speakers with something better behaved, such as the Philharmonic Audio BMR speakers that Peng mentioned above. As others above have suggested, the alternative is do not toe them in, keep them facing straight forward. Maybe that will improve things enough for you.
View attachment 39966

They are the top ones with the silver mid range drivers. They just released this month.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I’ve tried a few things but ultimately I’ve decided I’m going to return the speakers. They literally destroy my ears, just too painful even listening for a few minutes. I’m going to probably pick up a pair of the Martin Logan Motion 40i that are in store locally. They aren’t setup to demo so I’m going to try them at home. They have the ribbon tweeter so I’m going to see if it’s a metal tweeter issue. Like I said in my other posts, I can listen to my car speakers, AirPods, tv speaker, Sonos Beam sound at any volume for hours without pain. I never knew speakers could cause ear pain (with the exception of playing music/movies too loud) before I bought these B&W speakers. I was excited for my first real set of speakers but I admit I’m a little less enthused now lol. My fear is that I may have some biological sensitivity to “premium” speakers (not sound bars, wireless speakers, etc) because of how they are made.

 

[Swerd]

They are the top ones with the silver mid range drivers. They just released this month.

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I’ve tried a few things but ultimately I’ve decided I’m going to return the speakers. They literally destroy my ears, just too painful even listening for a few minutes.

I'm glad you can return them. The older yellow Kevlar mid-range drivers that B&W sold for many years always had that ear fatigue problem. The new gray mid-range drivers were supposed to fix that. Based on your experience, I guess not.

I’m going to probably pick up a pair of the Martin Logan Motion 40i that are in store locally. They aren’t setup to demo so I’m going to try them at home.

I hope you like them better. I haven't heard the recent Martin Logans.

They have the ribbon tweeter so I’m going to see if it’s a metal tweeter issue. Like I said in my other posts, I can listen to my car speakers, AirPods, tv speaker, Sonos Beam sound at any volume for hours without pain. I never knew speakers could cause ear pain (with the exception of playing music/movies too loud) before I bought these B&W speakers. I was excited for my first real set of speakers but I admit I’m a little less enthused now lol. My fear is that I may have some biological sensitivity to “premium” speakers (not sound bars, wireless speakers, etc) because of how they are made.

You should be glad you heard that problem right away, when you could still return them. This is a problem that has plagued B&W for years. There are many other "premium" speakers that don't have that problem.

Trust me, it isn't a metal tweeter issue. It's that mid-range driver allowed to work at too high a frequency. I think B&W crosses them to the tweeter at 3,500 or 4,000 Hz. Instead, they should have crossed them at a lower frequency, such as 2,000 to 2,500 Hz.

 

[ryanosaur]

I auditioned the ML Motions a couple years ago. While I do not believe the upgrade with the “I” designation is super significant, the difference between the 40 and 60 was. Comparatively the Monitor Audio Silver 300 and 500 could have almost been the same speaker. To this day, I know I could have been a happy MA owner.
To me, the Martin Logan’s were good speakers, but the 60 was hands down the better speaker. For the cost, however, it leaves a little on the table. Also a common comment seems to be that the AMT has a very tight sweet spot; so long as you are in it the SQ is high, but out of it you quickly lose the high end.
Monitor Audio delivered everything I wanted to hear in speakers listing at $2000-$2500 per pair in those Silver 300 and 500s. They also offer a well regarded 3-way Center.
Well worth trying to find a place to audition them, IMO, or to gamble with the return fee from Crutchfield.

 

[highfigh]

I understand that. However your options for equalization with passive crossovers are very limited indeed. You really can only equalize by tinkering with the slopes around crossover. A passive crossover can only cut, it can never boost. Active filters can cut and boost equally well, and can correct any part of the frequency spectrum. That is another major reason to move away from passive speakers.

Active filtering is great for boosting levels, but that is best done to bring the overall level up when cut is used to correct the response. Boosting at specific frequencies is a good way to kill a driver that may not be able to handle the power, if it requires an increase of more than 3dB.

IMO, any crossover or equalizer should come with a lower limit on the amount of boost (less than 10dB) and a way to prevent users accessing any more than that unless they're trained in using these and can pass a test.

 

[highfigh]

6" is a large cone for a midrange. I would expect that to be a huge climb to make a 6" wide band midrange driver. What probably should have happened is to develop a couple of 4" mids, and do an MTM arrangement. However then it would not have met the marketeers price points. I'm pretty sure I could accurately guess the conversations that took place.

Just another good reason to design your own speakers and get them right, and not have to put up with that sort of nonsense.

6" is large for a mid, if the upper limit of its band is too high, but I would also like to see the phase response of the crossover- phase issues are the main reason I don't like many speakers and it's something I'm sensitive to, unfortunately and fortunately (only for the purpose of listening tests). It's as if my ears are stuffed with cotton when I hear it.

Money talks- the budget for research/design/testing isn't what it should be.

 

[WildArticuno]

I'm glad you can return them. The older yellow Kevlar mid-range drivers that B&W sold for many years always had that ear fatigue problem. The new gray mid-range drivers were supposed to fix that. Based on your experience, I guess not.
I hope you like them better. I haven't heard the recent Martin Logans.
You should be glad you heard that problem right away, when you could still return them. This is a problem that has plagued B&W for years. There are many other "premium" speakers that don't have that problem.

Trust me, it isn't a metal tweeter issue. It's that mid-range driver allowed to work at too high a frequency. I think B&W crosses them to the tweeter at 3,500 or 4,000 Hz. Instead, they should have crossed them at a lower frequency, such as 2,000 to 2,500 Hz.

Any thoughts on the KEF Q750s? Would they have the same issue as the B&W? Thanks!

 

[Pogre]

Which speakers do you mean?

That's what I was wondering! The measurement in the post that was quoted looks... not good, lol.

 

[Swerd]

Any thoughts on the KEF Q750s? Would they have the same issue as the B&W? Thanks!

I haven't heard the Q750s, but I have heard other KEFs that share the UniQ coaxial driver. In general, I thought they were wide-range, balanced, and spacious sounding. I'm willing to guess that they don't suffer from the same issue as your former B&Ws had.

Be sure to listen to them yourself in a store or at home. Bring some music that you know could make your ears hurt on those B&W 603 s2 speakers. By now you should be able to quickly recognize that "ear bleed sound".

They seem to get good reviews, but you should take all published reviews with a large grain of salt.

https://www.soundstagehifi.com/index.php/reference-components/1146-recommended-reference-component-kef-q750-loudspeakers

SoundStage! Access | SoundStageAccess.com (GoodSound.com) - KEF Q750 Loudspeakers

 

[ryanosaur]

Any thoughts on the KEF Q750s? Would they have the same issue as the B&W? Thanks!

I'm not saying this to scare you off. I liked the sound of the KEFs I auditioned, but I did get listening fatigue during that session. Swerd is right, I'd say about good dispersion, which was a comment I heard regarding the way my audition was staged. These are speakers you want perpendicular to the wall and not toed in. Their Off-Axis response should be solid, but direct on axis is how they were staged for my audition.
Another forum member here said in response to my comments about this that he just EQs his speakers. *shrugs Seems like a less than ideal way to deal with new speakers, to me.
My audition was the old R900 and Q950 models.
You should audition them if you are interested. KEF gets a lot of love. (They also have a fair amount of fan(boy)s to boot!)

 

[johnner1999]

I’ve been about ready to pull the trigger on a pair of BW 603 towers 25th anniversary and 6htm center; four M1 surround speakers. Used with a Marantz 7013.

but wondering if I’d be better off with 2 Martin Logan Motion 40i, 30i, and four 4i for surrounds.

 

[ryanosaur]

I’ve been about ready to pull the trigger on a pair of BW 603 towers 25th anniversary and 6htm center; four M1 surround speakers. Used with a Marantz 7013.

but wondering if I’d be better off with 2 Martin Logan Motion 40i, 30i, and four 4i for surrounds.

I'm probably the wrong person to answer your question. I found the B&W 600 series to be completely lacking in any quality that makes a speaker good. They do not have an accurate or neutral FR and they also have relatively poor electrical behavior. The Towers I auditioned sounded thin and anemic, lacking bass. They also have a very disturbing dip built into the FR right in the middle of the Vocal Band.
You can see their behavior in this review from 2019:

Bowers & Wilkins 603 Tower Speaker Review

At $1,800/pr, Bowers & Wilkins 603 is their least expensive floor standing speaker. Read our full review to see what Bowers & Wilkins can do at such an accessible price bracket and how it performed.

www.audioholics.com

I wouldn't spend the money on them.

Monitor Audio Silvers are way better, followed by ML Motions. There are a lot of good quality speakers that can be had in/around that price range.

 

[Darenwh]

I hope your not watching that Justin Bieber movie, Never say never... it will make any bodies ears bleed.

 

[Kingnoob]

So yes, the speakers James reviewed have that same midrange driver. From my past work with drivers, I suspect that dip is from a cone edge termination causing a reflection resulting in that null around 2K. You can't eliminate that in the crossover design, and I doubt DSP would. My guess is that the bosses told the boffins they had spent enough of an R & D budget on that driver, and to cut it short, throw it in and bring it to market. That is probably at the bottom of it.

6" is a large cone for a midrange. I would expect that to be a huge climb to make a 6" wide band midrange driver. What probably should have happened is to develop a couple of 4" mids, and do an MTM arrangement. However then it would not have met the marketeers price points. I'm pretty sure I could accurately guess the conversations that took place.

Just another good reason to design your own speakers and get them right, and not have to put up with that sort of nonsense.

Awfully expensive speakers for the designers to skimp on. I guess not all expensive speakers are spectacular just because of price .
Klipch gets a lot of flack too , wonder what there curve is on defunct icon and entry reference lines .
I have ear damage in my left ear if I listen too loud too long my ear hurts like hell ....
All from watching movies in theaters without earplugs !!!
good luck op fixing this mess !!
Who knows if I’ll ever get a job or money to upgrade to mid level speakers../ it’s saddening all the best higher end kef and many other brands speakers are $3k each ...
Svs ultras are 1k ea ,

 

[johnner1999]

The 2k dip on their results I thought James mentioned it was fine, and if you go off axis the dip flattens out a bit. And that was pre updated crossover and tweeter design.

I haven’t tried a 603 yet. but so far not impressed with the motion 30i and motion 4i I bought to test before buying the motion 40i towers. The dialogue in movies with this setup is good don’t get me wrong. But not as detailed as the htm6 nor 606 setup I tried. That said I want to like the Martin speakers more. Maybe it’s my receiver but I’d hope that a Marantz 7013 could do it.

I still have four BW M1 speakers installed on my walls as surround and height speakers. Which I’d replace with four - 4i satellite speakers. But during this test you can really tell the m1 speakers are much more detailed. Sigh I suppose I’m doing something wrong. Do you have to tell Marantz that you have 4ohm speakers maybe?!?

 

[PENG]

That said I want to like the Martin speakers more. Maybe it’s my receiver but I’d hope that a Marantz 7013 could do it.

The 7013, or X4500H (Denon version, cheaper and less distortions) should be able to drive those 603s and Motion 40i speakers as long as you don't sit too far and don't listen anywhere near to reference level.

 

[TankTop5]

Based on your equipment I’m guessing that you’re shopping at Bestbuy, if so you should audition KEF’s.

 

[johnner1999]

Based on your equipment I’m guessing that you’re shopping at Bestbuy, if so you should audition KEF’s.

Nope not Best Buy

I did buy some q350 and q250c - they were full sounding which I enjoyed but dialogue was extremely muddy. Visually I prefer the motion 40i but I’ve wanted BW speakers for 20 years ha. Now that I can afford them - not sure lol. But the 603 towers do look timeless and I love the HT side of the M1 satellites I have installed, not sure I want to remove and try to do four 4i speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Your Front 3 should match each other, ideally, with a good quality 3-way Center as a focus... but Surrounds, Rears and Atmos don’t necessarily need to match.
For Center, I’m a big fan of using a vertical 3-way if possible, matching tower or stand mount to your mains. I. The event you can only get a 2-way stand mount to fit, that is still better than a 2-way horizontal MTM.

 

[Pogre]

Nope not Best Buy

I did buy some q350 and q250c - they were full sounding which I enjoyed but dialogue was extremely muddy. Visually I prefer the motion 40i but I’ve wanted BW speakers for 20 years ha. Now that I can afford them - not sure lol. But the 603 towers do look timeless and I love the HT side of the M1 satellites I have installed, not sure I want to remove and try to do four 4i speakers.

Personally I'm not that impressed with B&W until you get into the expensive stuff. I got to listen to a pair of 802 D3s at a hifi shop and they're one of the best speakers I've heard. They were in a treated room and hooked up to a stack of Mcintosh gear. They had everything dialed in and I gotta say, they knocked my socks off. They don't need a subwoofer either, and I don't say that very often.

I think Kef's R series speakers are where they start getting really good. If you ever get a chance to hear those I think you'll prefer them over the Qs.