B&W 603 S2 Hurting Ears

[TankTop5]

That’s what I meant, kef R’s as they’re in the price range of the baby’s B&W’s.

 

[Pogre]

I still have four BW M1 speakers installed on my walls as surround and height speakers. Which I’d replace with four - 4i satellite speakers. But during this test you can really tell the m1 speakers are much more detailed. Sigh I suppose I’m doing something wrong. Do you have to tell Marantz that you have 4ohm speakers maybe?!?

Okay, well first how did you compare dialogue between your surround speakers and the MLs? Unless you took your surrounds down and used them up front to compare I don't think you could really reach a definitive conclusion.

That said, you don't necessarily have to replace your surround speakers! The front 3 are the important ones. You could funnel your surround money into the budget for just the front 3 and get something even nicer. That would put you in the Salk Sound neighborhood and I don't think you can find a better sounding speaker anywhere near that adjusted budget. Some beautiful looking finishes are available with those too.

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

 

[johnner1999]

Okay, well first how did you compare dialogue between your surround speakers and the MLs? Unless you took your surrounds down and used them up front to compare I don't think you could really reach a definitive conclusion.

That said, you don't necessarily have to replace your surround speakers! The front 3 are the important ones. You could funnel your surround money into the budget for just the front 3 and get something even nicer. That would put you in the Salk Sound neighborhood and I don't think you can find a better sounding speaker anywhere near that adjusted budget. Some beautiful looking finishes are available with those too.

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

I had purchased a BW htm6 center and motion 30i and two motion 4i as fronts (but would be buying motion 40i towers...) my main focus was dialogue. Oh and I didn’t touch the four M1 speakers yet.

when I switched the center to large is when it really shined and dialogue was clear and didn’t need to push the AVR as much. And yes still using a sub.

 

[Pogre]

I had purchased a BW htm6 center and motion 30i and two motion 4i as fronts (but would be buying motion 40i towers...) my main focus was dialogue. Oh and I didn’t touch the four M1 speakers yet.

when I switched the center to large is when it really shined and dialogue was clear and didn’t need to push the AVR as much. And yes still using a sub.

I'm confused. During which test could you really tell the m1 speakers are much more detailed? More detailed than what? The M1s are your surround speakers, right?

When you switched the center to large it really shined and dialogue was clearer? I'm not following that either. Switching to large just makes it full range and shouldn't really do anything to make dialogue clearer.

*Edit: I missed the part where you said you'd replaced the M1s with the 4is. Still tho, they're only effect speakers and I think it'd be really difficult to pick out differences in clarity.

 

[johnner1999]

I'm confused. During which test could you really tell the m1 speakers are much more detailed? More detailed than what? The M1s are your surround speakers, right?

When you switched the center to large it really shined and dialogue was clearer? I'm not following that either. Switching to large just makes it full range and shouldn't really do anything to make dialogue clearer.

*Edit: I missed the part where you said you'd replaced the M1s with the 4is. Still tho, they're only effect speakers and I think it'd be really difficult to pick out differences in clarity.

Ahhhh

Okay confusing part 1
Basing it on how sound quality between pans from front to rear. Ie in Ready Player One - during the first car race when percivil is catching coins. The sound of coins hitting his car goes slowly from front to rears. And you can tell the BW are more crisp.

part 2 ... hmm I’m gonna have to think about that

 

[Kingnoob]

Personally I'm not that impressed with B&W until you get into the expensive stuff. I got to listen to a pair of 802 D3s at a hifi shop and they're one of the best speakers I've heard. They were in a treated room and hooked up to a stack of Mcintosh gear. They had everything dialed in and I gotta say, they knocked my socks off. They don't need a subwoofer either, and I don't say that very often.

I think Kef's R series speakers are where they start getting really good. If you ever get a chance to hear those I think you'll prefer them over the Qs.

Ahh that’s the 30k B & w diamonds pair ? Kef r used better materials??? Or just higher end ?
I’m still unsure why they have so many tiers is that just so people who can afford better speakers are happy ?
like every brand on crutchfeild has like-multiple tiers . Not every expensive speakers is amazing tho right ?
jbl 590 look nice and not too expensive.
My cheap gear due to economic hardship looks like a hobo system ...

 

[Pogre]

Ahhhh

Okay confusing part 1
Basing it on how sound quality between pans from front to rear. Ie in Ready Player One - during the first car race when percivil is catching coins. The sound of coins hitting his car goes slowly from front to rears. And you can tell the BW are more crisp.

part 2 ... hmm I’m gonna have to think about that

Your part 2 response is kind of telling... I suspect your bias for B&W is clouding your judgement. At least partly. That's not a knock, we're all biased and it's hard to get around it for everyone. I know there have been times I was completely aware of my bias and still couldn't get around it. Sighted comparisons have been demonstrated to be notoriously inaccurate.

It would be very difficult to pick out differences in clarity between surround speakers from a couple seconds of panning sound. Sonic memory is very short with humans and it can be difficult to suss out differences even with instant a/b switching. You should also factor in placement, level matching (with a spl meter) and defeat any dsp to level the playing field. Even a 1 dB difference can make 1 speaker sound cleaner than another.

 

[johnner1999]

Your part 2 response is kind of telling... I suspect your bias for B&W is clouding your judgement. At least partly. That's not a knock, we're all biased and it's hard to get around it for everyone. I know there have been times I was completely aware of my bias and still couldn't get around it. Sighted comparisons have been demonstrated to be notoriously inaccurate.

It would be very difficult to pick out differences in clarity between surround speakers from a couple seconds of panning sound. Sonic memory is very short with humans and it can be difficult to suss out differences even with instant a/b switching. You should also factor in placement, level matching (with a spl meter) and defeat any dsp to level the playing field. Even a 1 dB difference can make 1 speaker sound cleaner than another.

You are spot on. I call it emotional debt ha.

I’ve wanted BW for 20+ years. My wife is asking why is this a difficult thing. And what’s that saying.... never meet your heroes? . Flip side my thinks that they sound the best.

I’ve narrowed it down to:

- Martin Logan 40i
- BW 603 25th
- monitor audio silver 200

with kef q950 as a dark horse

gonna pull the trigger this week as my wife said buy them now or forget it lol.

Again just don’t want to make a mistake due to emotional debt.

 

[ryanosaur]

- monitor audio silver 200

If there is any way to push it to the Silver 300, you will be rewarded.
To be fair, I haven't listened to the 200, but the 300, as a 3-way speaker stood up very well to the Silver 500. I'd be willing to say that it was ~90% of what the 500 offered; enough to make me question whether I wanted the bigger brothers in place of putting more $$$ toward Subs or some other gear.

I am not a KEF fan necessarily, but the Q950 did impress. They are a different speaker altogether. I mound them a bit too harsh in the mids... only time I've experienced listening fatigue was with my KEF audition. That said, they were aimed straight at me IIRC, and it has been suggested these are better off perpendicular or only slightly toed in.
One other note, the KEF centers have been dinged a little by some as not being very clear. I cannot speak to this directly, but if you choose to go that route it would be worth a careful audition first.

Lastly, I really liked the Motion 40 compared to the B&W, however, compared to it's bigger brother, the 60, it could not compete. It has been said here that the tweeter axis is very sensitive and narrow, for all the Motion Speakers. This means if you move around, you may find yourself in-and-out of good sound.
The MA Silver 300s and 500s, on the other hand, simply stood out over all of these to my ears.

The only reason I didn't end up an owner of some Silver 500s?

...Is in my signature.

 

[johnner1999]

If there is any way to push it to the Silver 300, you will be rewarded.
To be fair, I haven't listened to the 200, but the 300, as a 3-way speaker stood up very well to the Silver 500. I'd be willing to say that it was ~90% of what the 500 offered; enough to make me question whether I wanted the bigger brothers in place of putting more $$$ toward Subs or some other gear.

I am not a KEF fan necessarily, but the Q950 did impress. They are a different speaker altogether. I mound them a bit too harsh in the mids... only time I've experienced listening fatigue was with my KEF audition. That said, they were aimed straight at me IIRC, and it has been suggested these are better off perpendicular or only slightly toed in.
One other note, the KEF centers have been dinged a little by some as not being very clear. I cannot speak to this directly, but if you choose to go that route it would be worth a careful audition first.

Lastly, I really liked the Motion 40 compared to the B&W, however, compared to it's bigger brother, the 60, it could not compete. It has been said here that the tweeter axis is very sensitive and narrow, for all the Motion Speakers. This means if you move around, you may find yourself in-and-out of good sound.
The MA Silver 300s and 500s, on the other hand, simply stood out over all of these to my ears.

The only reason I didn't end up an owner of some Silver 500s?

...Is in my signature.

Do you think my Marantz is strong enough for 300 fronts and 350 center— with maybe a pair of silver height and silver FX?

 

[ryanosaur]

Do you think my Marantz is strong enough for 300 fronts and 350 center— with maybe a pair of silver height and silver FX?

Yes. Unless you go bonkers on the volume. But that's pretty much the case with everything. Remind which Marantz you are running, please.

I would urge against the Silver FX... unless they will be very near field.
That said, the Silver 100's would be good at Surround. Silver 50s at Rear or height.
I completely agree with the Silver 350 for Center.

When I was reading all the reviews I could find on MA Speakers back in 2018, I was taken by the fact that I pretty much never saw a negative comment. The worst was that the 50s maybe seamed a little bland compared to the 100s, and that the FX really just didn't do anything special to assert itself in the line-up.
Toward that last point, the important aspect of these Bi-Pole/Di-Pole speakers is that in the near-field, they will spread the sound out so it doesn't sound like its right in your ear. Put it several feet away where Surrounds or Rears would ideally be placed, and this type of Speaker just falls apart in the SQ department.

 

[TankTop5]

Your part 2 response is kind of telling... I suspect your bias for B&W is clouding your judgement. At least partly. That's not a knock, we're all biased and it's hard to get around it for everyone. I know there have been times I was completely aware of my bias and still couldn't get around it. Sighted comparisons have been demonstrated to be notoriously inaccurate.

It would be very difficult to pick out differences in clarity between surround speakers from a couple seconds of panning sound. Sonic memory is very short with humans and it can be difficult to suss out differences even with instant a/b switching. You should also factor in placement, level matching (with a spl meter) and defeat any dsp to level the playing field. Even a 1 dB difference can make 1 speaker sound cleaner than another.

After 20 years in sales I can definitively say a pre conceived opinion is the most difficult thing to overcome.

 

[johnner1999]

Yes. Unless you go bonkers on the volume. But that's pretty much the case with everything. Remind which Marantz you are running, please.

I would urge against the Silver FX... unless they will be very near field.
That said, the Silver 100's would be good at Surround. Silver 50s at Rear or height.
I completely agree with the Silver 350 for Center.

When I was reading all the reviews I could find on MA Speakers back in 2018, I was taken by the fact that I pretty much never saw a negative comment. The worst was that the 50s maybe seamed a little bland compared to the 100s, and that the FX really just didn't do anything special to assert itself in the line-up.
Toward that last point, the important aspect of these Bi-Pole/Di-Pole speakers is that in the near-field, they will spread the sound out so it doesn't sound like its right in your ear. Put it several feet away where Surrounds or Rears would ideally be placed, and this type of Speaker just falls apart in the SQ department.

Understood on the FX - maybe I’d keep the M1s up as I don’t want “boxes” on the walls I know I know.

 

[ryanosaur]

Again, matching EVERYTHING is not necessary.

Focus on the Front 3. If you decide to expand, go to the Surrounds, next. Beyond that, shouldn't matter.

 

[Kingnoob]

You are spot on. I call it emotional debt ha.

I’ve wanted BW for 20+ years. My wife is asking why is this a difficult thing. And what’s that saying.... never meet your heroes? . Flip side my thinks that they sound the best.

I’ve narrowed it down to:

- Martin Logan 40i
- BW 603 25th
- monitor audio silver 200

with kef q950 as a dark horse

gonna pull the trigger this week as my wife said buy them now or forget it lol.

Again just don’t want to make a mistake due to emotional debt.

Really hard choices...these are nice too bigger woofers
Wish I could afford them

Monitor Audio Silver 500 (Black Oak)

Floor-standing speaker

www.crutchfield.com

 

[Pogre]

I think... if Ryan says the MA Silver 300/500 almost won "best sounding speaker", only bested by the Philharmonic, that's pretty damned high praise coming from him. Enough for me to go back and give the bigger MA Silvers another listen.

Remember, replacing your surround speakers isn't absolutely necessary. You can put your surround money into the budget for the front 3 and come out ahead.

 

[ryanosaur]

I think... if Ryan says the MA Silver 300/500 almost won "best sounding speaker", only bested by the Philharmonic, that's pretty damned high praise coming from him. Enough for me to go back and give the bigger MA Silvers another listen.

Remember, replacing your surround speakers isn't absolutely necessary. You can put your surround money into the budget for the front 3 and come out ahead.

As, shucks.
That’s still just my subjective opinion while trying to objectively find the best sounding speakers I could afford.
But I do wish there were wider marketing efforts here in the US than there are.