18" Dayton Ultimax Dipole Subwoofers and Crown K1 Amp Mini DSP Confusion

[Pogre]

Room WAS a major issue. I had both pc2000 and sb2000 subs. I spent weeks moving them around and running rew. Why can’t people just accept some enjoy a different setup then themselves. The world is not black and white. Second pc was not an option anyway.

I can accept whatever, but I'm also a realist and have a lot of experience with subs. Both sealed and ported. I'm now curious to see your sweeps since you mention it. Here's one of mine with my dual ported subs.

I'm pretty happy with that. I can dial in a flat response with sealed too, but would need 4 of them to get the same output as my ported VTF-3 MK5s. Other than that, a flat fr is a flat fr, whether using ported or sealed... Were you mixing ported with sealed? What does your chart look like?

 

[Pogre]

So you haven’t seen measurements, haven’t heard the box and believe it is impossible to calculate the response.....but....it’s god awful. You see the issue there? Lol.

You’re probably right but can you see how frustrating it is to have all these people tell me that I should have kept my pc2000 even though I didn’t like it because I just didn’t set it up properly in my room when they don’t know what my room sounds like, have zero idea how many positions I put it in and how many hours and days I spent running rew. Even with then response I liked, I didn’t like the sound compared to my sb2000. Same driver, same 550 watt rms plate amp same room positions. Sb2000 just struggled at the levels I sometime play it at. Ultimax will be able to do it in its sleep. I’m playing with the box I have now for a little bit.

Thank your for the info on the high pass. Currently I’m getting a flatish response without any eq in my room. I’ll keep playing, cause that’s all this is. I’m just having a bit of fun. It’s a different sounding bass than I’ve ever heard and hard to explain. It’s all there but doesn’t thump and it doesn’t excite the room. It’s bass but it’s different and until you’ve heard it, (in my room) you can’t really know what it sounds like.

Nobody told you what you should do. I gave my opinion and told you what I would have done. I also suggested that setup might be an issue. I never said that I knew for sure that was the case... Usually folks post on forums looking for opinions and advice. I'm sorry you're so offended by honest fact based opinions, but you're gonna run into that kind of thing on a forum...

The drivers you have now work better with a sealed design and they're big and powerful so you've got your wish, but you may still have setup issues similar to the ones you had with the PC. Hopefully they'll have enough output. It's good that you have REW so you can measure what's going on. Like I said earlier, I'd like to see the charts from your measurements. That makes it easy for us to see where (if any) issues might lie.

 

[Pogre]

So you haven’t seen measurements, haven’t heard the box and believe it is impossible to calculate the response.....but....it’s god awful. You see the issue there? Lol.

No, I don't see the issue. TLS designs and builds his own speakers and systems and has forgotten more about speaker design than I'll ever know. I trust his ability to recognize good or bad design.

You’re probably right but can you see how frustrating it is to have all these people tell me that I should have kept my pc2000 even though I didn’t like it because I just didn’t set it up properly in my room when they don’t know what my room sounds like, have zero idea how many positions I put it in and how many hours and days I spent running rew. Even with then response I liked, I didn’t like the sound compared to my sb2000. Same driver, same 550 watt rms plate amp same room positions. Sb2000 just struggled at the levels I sometime play it at. Ultimax will be able to do it in its sleep. I’m playing with the box I have now for a little bit.

Maybe if you had included what all you've done as far as setup and attached some measurements then we'd have known... as it is nobody here reads minds and setup issues are very, very common. Most folks don't even know how to use REW. Those that do, usually include their charts in the first post! If you have REW and did all that measuring why would you not mention it in your first post and attach some charts?! Let's see them!

 

[Nakean]

I can accept whatever, but I'm also a realist and have a lot of experience with subs. Both sealed and ported. I'm now curious to see your sweeps since you mention it. Here's one of mine with my dual ported subs.

View attachment 39997

I'm pretty happy with that. I can dial in a flat response with sealed too, but would need 4 of them to get the same output as my ported VTF-3 MK5s. Other than that, a flat fr is a flat fr, whether using ported or sealed... Were you mixing ported with sealed? What does your chart look like?

I had a nice response with my ported and sealed together, but eventually I moved the second sub to accompany my Heresy’s in the living room.

Holly crap that’s flat man! Nice work.
Not home this weekend but I’ll see if I can dig up my old charts.

 

[Nakean]

Maybe if you had included what all you've done as far as setup and attached some measurements then we'd have known... as it is nobody here reads minds and setup issues are very, very common. Most folks don't even know how to use REW. Those that do, usually include their charts in the first post! If you have REW and did all that measuring why would you not mention it in your first post and attach some charts?! Let's see them!

It seems to me you may have not read the responses give. Because everyone and their mother, father, and siblings told me to get a sealed enclosure and scrap the box. I responded that that was the plan once I ordered some sealed flat packs. I also explained that in the interim I would like to play around with the box I currently have.

Here are my original questions. This is why I didn't include charts. I wasn't interested in any information in which charts would help others with answers to the questions I was asking.

1. Is there even a wiring setup in which two 2ohm dual coil subs can show 8 ohms to the amp in mono?
2. Should I wire these up as bridged 8ohm setting on the K1 if so (that would be a healthy 1,100 watts)
3. My mini DSP only outputs .9 volts anyway to fix this as the K1 wants to see 1.4 volts or do I need too upgrade to the MiniDSPHD?
4. If I play at moderate levels while I'm waiting for MiniDSPHD or whichever one runs 1.4 volt output can I damage the subs with no HighPass Filter
5. How should I set the Highpass filter (do I need one to protect the Sub?) Guessing 18hz but what about the roll off?

Bottom line, I now know If

• I don't boost with EQ I'm probably safe without the mini DSP in the chain
• which is part of the reason I'm not getting much signal from my Denon sub out with it's .9volts output when the Crown K1 wants to see at least 1.4volts.
• This design will never offer much SPL as the drivers work to somewhat cancel each other out.
• I can run the K1 bridged and the speakers will see 8 ohms

 

[Pogre]

I had a nice response with my ported and sealed together, but eventually I moved the second sub to accompany my Heresy’s in the living room.

Holly crap that’s flat man! Nice work.
Not home this weekend but I’ll see if I can dig up my old charts.

Thank you, I definitely put the effort in and did a lot of homework. Still lots to learn tho. That's why I like these forums. There's a lot of collective knowledge and experience here and I seem to learn something new every day still.

Well, the PC is off the table and you have yourself some capable drivers and a good amp now. Not a bad start. A pair of 18s with that kind of power will probably get you where you want. I have a Mini in my chain but it's the HD version (part of my secret sauce ) and I really like it. I don't have any issues with preout voltage tho. I've never played with the one you have. That might be a consideration for you down the road. Between the Mini HD and REW I think you could really dial it in nicely.

 

[Nakean]

Thank you, I definitely put the effort in and did a lot of homework. Still lots to learn tho. That's why I like these forums. There's a lot of collective knowledge and experience here and I seem to learn something new every day still.

Well, the PC is off the table and you have yourself some capable drivers and a good amp now. Not a bad start. A pair of 18s with that kind of power will probably get you where you want. I have a Mini in my chain but it's the HD version (part of my secret sauce ) and I really like it. I don't have any issues with preout voltage tho. I've never played with the one you have. That might be a consideration for you down the road. Between the Mini HD and REW I think you could really dial it in nicely.

MiniHD on its way now. Two sealed boxes next month. I’m sure I’ll be plenty happy. The wife and neighbors on the other hand... thanks again.

 

[Nakean]

Thank you, I definitely put the effort in and did a lot of homework. Still lots to learn tho. That's why I like these forums. There's a lot of collective knowledge and experience here and I seem to learn something new every day still.

Well, the PC is off the table and you have yourself some capable drivers and a good amp now. Not a bad start. A pair of 18s with that kind of power will probably get you where you want. I have a Mini in my chain but it's the HD version (part of my secret sauce ) and I really like it. I don't have any issues with preout voltage tho. I've never played with the one you have. That might be a consideration for you down the road. Between the Mini HD and REW I think you could really dial it in nicely.

I believe this is the design the person followed when creating the box. I have the mini HD now which solved my voltage problem and two sealed boxes ordered.

Dipole Woofer

 

[Nakean]

I believe this is the design the person followed when creating the box. I have the mini HD now which solved my voltage problem and two sealed boxes ordered.

Dipole Woofer

And here is on-axis along with 45 degrees off-axis in a nearfield setup.

 

[lovinthehd]

So the higher voltage output of the HD made all the difference for that amp/sub?

 

[Nakean]

So the higher voltage output of the HD made all the difference for that amp/sub?

yes and no. Made a huge difference as the .9 volts in the Non HD isn't enough. The Crown wants 1.4 or more. I think this setup is still woefully inefficient but as nearfield, it has plenty of get-up and go. When I stand up I can't even tell it's on. It's so very weird. Doesn't excite the room or my wife. She hates the box but she's really gonna hate it when I get these drivers in their own sealed boxes...

Part of me wants to keep it this way. I can get my rumble on and she won't feel a thing sitting right next to me on the couch.

 

[steverii]

yes and no. Made a huge difference as the .9 volts in the Non HD isn't enough. The Crown wants 1.4 or more. I think this setup is still woefully inefficient but as nearfield, it has plenty of get-up and go. When I stand up I can't even tell it's on. It's so very weird. Doesn't excite the room or my wife. She hates the box but she's really gonna hate it when I get these drivers in their own sealed boxes...

Part of me wants to keep it this way. I can get my rumble on and she won't feel a thing sitting right next to me on the couch.

Do not throw that box away! That is a W frame design by Siegfried Linkwitz>. I have been using that design to go with my Magnepans and I can assure you it works quite well. However, I am using Acoustic Elegance drivers specifically designed for dipole use. The only problem I see with those Dayton drivers is the Qts (.53) is a little lower than optimal for open dipole use. Needs to be closer to .7. However a little EQ or a Linkwitz/transform circuit should help that I believe. Go to linkwitzlab.com and read the dipole sub section. I am going to build another pair using the UM-18-22's. I have purchased an Emerald Physics BOM which I believe is an adjustable L/T circuit.
Before you take take those drivers out of the box, check, the back of the box should be open in the middle only, the drivers should be wired out of phase I believe in this particular mounting configuration.

 

[Nakean]

Do not throw that box away! That is a W frame design by Siegfried Linkwitz>. I have been using that design to go with my Magnepans and I can assure you it works quite well. However, I am using Acoustic Elegance drivers specifically designed for dipole use. The only problem I see with those Dayton drivers is the Qts (.53) is a little lower than optimal for open dipole use. Needs to be closer to .7. However a little EQ or a Linkwitz/transform circuit should help that I believe. Go to linkwitzlab.com and read the dipole sub section. I am going to build another pair using the UM-18-22's. I have purchased an Emerald Physics BOM which I believe is an adjustable L/T circuit.
Before you take take those drivers out of the box, check, the back of the box should be open in the middle only, the drivers should be wired out of phase I believe in this particular mounting configuration.

Yes back of box was open and subs wired out of phase. I have since placed both subs in sealed boxes and they pound but definitely excite the room more. Because of the design I would need to place these subs more in the room and would also need a second box to get the output I would need/want. That would mean two more drivers. I am still keeping the box as I eventually would love to use it in another application like a small listening room.