Does Film Maker Mode Marks Death to the Soap Opera Effect for UHD Displays?

[Kingnoob]

I don't even know what it is... lol.

Most TVs actually have it fixed , one older models lag every so often for soap opera and everything looks so fake .


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[Kingnoob]

I don't even know what it is... lol.

Most TVs actually have it fixed , one older models lag every so often for soap opera and everything looks so fake .

4 years later and a Samsung 1/4 the price of my tv had hdr ::: Sony of 2015 is trash not saying the cheaper tv today is better though.
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[William Lemmerhirt]

My Sony 120 hz has no soap opera effect but sadly it’s not hdr .
O well haha it’s going to have to work for a long time .


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I wonder if your just used to it. Unless it was turned off, every 120hz display ive seen has it. Worst invention ever.

 

[panteragstk]

I wonder if your just used to it. Unless it was turned off, every 120hz display ive seen has it. Worst invention ever.

I have any sort of frame interpolation turned off on all my LCD sets. My Panasonic has a 48hz and 96hz option and the 48hz one flickers like no tomorrow. The 96hz option doesn't really look any different from the original 24hz signal so I've got it on just to smooth out motion. Only TV I've ever seen where CFI (creative frame interpolation) doesn't look horrible, but it's also not an LCD.

 

[Kingnoob]

I wonder if your just used to it. Unless it was turned off, every 120hz display ive seen has it. Worst invention ever.

I don’t see soap opera in any mode if my tv but like I’ve said before it’s not a. Good movie tv I’d dedicate it to non hdr gaming or Netflix imo that’s about all its good for .
You can’t turn 120 hz off of 4k tv , you can run off motion flow though thankfully ‘!!!
Smooth , standard, and true cinematic mode only good ones rest trash


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[ray91962]

Refresh rate, measured in Hz, is the number of times your display can redraw the screen from top to bottom in 1 second, typically 60× per second (60Hz) or 120× per second (120 Hz) on modern TV sets. Frame rate, measured in frames per second (fps), is the number of separate frames your display is building (or rendering) in 1 second (a picture for your display to draw). Hz is a measure of speed, while fps is a measure of quantity. Without getting too technical, the dreaded "soap opera effect" is caused when duplicate frames are artificially inserted between the actual frames to smooth out the motion judder in low frame-rate content like films that are predominantly shown at 24 frames per second (24 fps). Refresh rate and frame rate do not directly cause soap opera effect. I'm not a videophile purist, but I believe including a separate "Film Maker Mode" with motion smoothing turned off automatically (in metadata) is a great way for movie buffs to watch a film the way it was meant to be seen by the director, not the TV manufacturer. You wouldn't want to read a book that had been randomly rewritten by the publisher, would you?

 

[RichB]

I voted for interpolation and I hate the soap opera effect because interpolation levels can be selected and it does help.
The problem with film maker mode is that they are dealing with maximum frame interpolation and ignoring the true goal which is to look like motion in 24Hz frame doubled cinematic presentation.

I have a Pioneer Kuro and LG 77C9 OLED and have compared them. Film Maker mode disables interpolation but makes it worse than some interpolation on the LG OLEDs. I use the globe scene in Star Trek into Darkness panning which at fist blush is awful on the LG. It is a little less awful on the Kuro. Neither one looks like the cinema. In the cinema, pans never jump, they are smooth and blurred. Kuro and LG jump (stutter) but the LG is worse (IMO) for two reasons. The LG is a sample-and-hold as opposed to very fast flashing refresh of the Kuro and because the LG is a much brighter. display.

The LG at frame interpolation (DeJudder) at 2-4 does have some smoothing but removes much of the jumping while preserving the blurring affect that is much preferred in 24Hz refresh.

So, no I will not be using Film Maker mode if added to my C9. It's my display so the film makers can Ricky Gervais off.

- Rich

 

[Trebdp83]

And here I thought poor writing and casting were ruining today’s movies. I would prefer it if filmmakers cared about folks at home getting to use the full real estate of their UHD screens. With most viewing occuring at home, why not film in 16:9? Open up those IMAX scenes. Open matte them if they are at 1:85. I only go to the movies a few times a year and always have a look at the aspect ratio right off and usually think, "Darn, this will be letterboxed at home." Widescreen shows from Netflix and the like really get my goat. CinemaScope was brought about to get people out of the house and away from small 4:3 tv’s in the 1950’s. Things have changed. I would love to see more high frame rate films but that means techniques used for 24fps need to change as well.

 

[Paul Mohr]

My LG C9 kind of has that option. If you select certain modes, like ISF Expert Dark it pretty much shuts all of that stuff off and has pretty accurate color settings. As for frame rate or whatever I guess that is a personal preferance for many, and it depends on what I am watching. If it is a movie I want to see it how it was shot. If it was filmed for 24 fps that is how I want to see it. If it was higher I want it to show at that rate. Same with the other settings on a tv, it depends on what I am watching. For movies I normally want it all turned off. However when watching netflix wiht older shows sometimes I turn some of the noise stuff on and add a hint of true motion since it is adjustable on my tv. It really cleans up some of the tv stuff that can be a bit grainy and old looking and make it look new. But like said, for movies I want them look how they did at release. If I am watching an old western or something shot on film I want it to look a bit grainy and look like it did at the theater when I watched it in the 70's. Same with an old horror flick. Or even a new movie if that how the director wanted it to look. If someone else doesn't though I could care less. You are doing it for your entertainment, do what entertains you. I personally don't like HDR. I think its way too bright and the colors don't look real to me. Looks like I am watching something on a best buy showroom floor. If others like it, great, more power to them. It is not different than me liking jazz and someone else liking speed metal or hip hop.

I feel the same way about screen resolution. Most movie theaters from what I can tell are 2K, 4K if you are lucky. And those screens are huge. Do we really think we need 4K on a 55 inch tv? I don't, but try buying a 1080p tv now. If you can find one it will probably be so cheap it will look like garbage. Resolution won't bit its issue lol. I still have an old 720p plasma that looks great with movies. Only draw back is its only 42 inches, which was big at that time.

 

[Huey645]

I'm not sure if this exactly what the discussion is about, but I came across this clip from Gemini Man on Youtube, and it just looks weird. I can do something similar on my QLED, but it looks like somebody took the time and adjusted for color. Not sure why they did this, but I'm not sure if I like it or hate it.

 

[Trebdp83]

I think they cooked up that 60fps clip like so many other movie clips on Youtube that came from 24fps sources. The 60fps disc looks great. The movie was no masterpiece but there are some striking scenes that will make a mediocre 75" 4K set such as mine shine. You simply cannot hide anything at that frame rate and CGI and motion capture really stand out. I wish they had gone with practical effects all the way around in regard to the actors. Some of the character effects are cringe worthy. There are a few scenes in this thing that are just stunning and the disc is worth picking up if only to use these scenes as demo material for the amazing images capable from a 4K HDR 60fps disc and a 4K HDR capable TV. Does it look like the soap opera effect? Well, it does not have the look of a 24fps film. But, it does not have the strange unsteadiness and sometimes messiness of motion interpolation. It is very smooth without looking strangely fast. I hope more material is shot at this frame rate using more natural light and practical effects. Oh, and while the disc is in 60fps, I believe it was actually filmed in 120fps 3D. I think viewing it that way at home on a television would require 8K and 3D capable components that I do not believe will ever see the light of day. Oh, well, it would have been cool. Typing in "60fps HDR Videos" in the Youtube app brings up some cool clips and demos that just look great on a big 4K TV.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I was actually going to begin a thread on this -- well, a particular question I had regarding my Samsung 4K panel's motion smoothing feature (I still will, being that it's a separate query -- but it's been interesting to read the replies here on this subject. I can recall being smitten by the "soap opera effect" when I first saw Sony Bravia LCD demos back during the launch of 1080p (one in particular looked sensational to me, a demo of a scene from the first Pirates of the Caribbean where Depp looked like he was floating off the screen -- I LOVED it) but I didn't know what "created" this look...I thought it was merely the LCD tech itself, which is why I was, understandably, disappointed when I got my first HDTV home, a Sony SXRD rear projection display, and it didn't offer motion interpolation controls...

Now, I can't really sit through a 24FPS film with that effect turned on (controlled, apparently, only by the "Judder Reduction" setting of the new displays) -- but here's the thing: I have found a spot on the Judder Reduction slider that allows for smooth panning motion but doesn't introduce the hyper-surreal sped-up video-esque motion that tends to make films look odd (IMO) when these controls are used to the extremes. On my Samsung, this ends up being "5" out of a maximum of "10" on the Judder Reduction slider (the BLUR Reduction is another thing altogether, and that's what I was going to create a new thread on).

 

[Trebdp83]

I have left the Judder Reduction set to 5 as well but only in combination with the LED Clear Motion setting set to ON as well. Samsung TV's have HDR issues and I found myself changing the GAMMA setting too often for different HDR content from streams and discs. I find I do not have to play with GAMMA settings with LED Clear Motion set to ON. It does lower brightness but bright shots are now not as glaring and blacks are blacker so there you go. I've done more tinkering with my TV than anyone should and it is beginning to show. 4K HDR content at 60fps is the only content that does not require such tinkering. It looks great right out of the box with any picture mode and settings. I'm waiting for a really good movie to be shot in the format.

 

[Kaskade89052]

I have left the Judder Reduction set to 5 as well but only in combination with the LED Clear Motion setting set to ON as well. Samsung TV's have HDR issues and I found myself changing the GAMMA setting too often for different HDR content from streams and discs. I find I do not have to play with GAMMA settings with LED Clear Motion set to ON. It does lower brightness but bright shots are now not as glaring and blacks are blacker so there you go. I've done more tinkering with my TV than anyone should and it is beginning to show. 4K HDR content at 60fps is the only content that does not require such tinkering. It looks great right out of the box with any picture mode and settings. I'm waiting for a really good movie to be shot in the format.

Hey Treb,

Don't know if you still monitor this thread, but I just realized I never replied to your post above. My apologies.

In continuing to talk about this motion smoothing stuff, do you still use Judder Reduction at 5 on your Samsung? I have played around with all manner of Judder and Blur Reduction, and no matter where I leave these sliders, it seems, the only thing that gets rid of a weird "distorted ghosting/breakup" during fast action foreground shots is turning Auto Motion Plus completely off. However, I don't care for the look of 24FPS content with no motion smoothing, so I always go back to returning the slider to 5.

Even when I lower both Blur and Judder Reduction from 10 and 5 respectively, I still get that ghosting breakup during fast foreground movement or when there's a fire, gunshot flash or lightning effect in a film. I don't know if the Blur slider is somehow interacting with the Judder slider, even though they're not supposed to (Judder Reduction is meant to work on low frame rate content and Blur Reduction on high frame rate stuff), and if this is causing the artifacts I'm seeing...what's weird is that I never saw these issues with two other disc players that were connected to this TV previously, using the exact same interpolation settings...

Very weird.

Any thoughts?

*As an aside and with regard to LED Clear Motion: I don't use the black frame insertion on my Samsung NU8000, as it causes a flicker that I simply cannot tolerate.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yeah, I just stopped playing around with it after a while and did away with the laser blast lightning ghosts. There just wasn’t a sweet spot that worked for everything. I went to PC mode and set everything at 60hz playback. Doing that cut out most picture adjustment options and eliminated Natural and Movie modes and I couldn’t play with motion features in this mode. This fixed lag and audio sync issues went away but color output was reduced.

I also set all of my devices to SDR as the HDR in my set is crap. My 4K blu-rays suffered for it when the player converted them to SDR. I decided to fish around the “secret menu” in the TV and turned on a feature here and there that suddenly made my HDR content look a whole lot better. So, back to HDR and movie mode with recommended settings with 24fps back on in my devices and all motion smoothing and judder reduction off.

I will still flip between Dynamic and Movie mode only when watching HDR content as SDR content looks terrible in Dynamic mode. It seems to enhance HDR content rather than blowing it out like it does with SDR content. Hey, I like my Marvel movies to pop, sue me. So, that’s where I am now as I secretly hope the TV fails and I can go get that 77” oled.

 

[Kaskade89052]

Yeah, I just stopped playing around with it after a while and did away with the laser blast lightning ghosts. There just wasn’t a sweet spot that worked for everything. I went to PC mode and set everything at 60hz playback. Doing that cut out most picture adjustment options and eliminated Natural and Movie modes and I couldn’t play with motion features in this mode. This fixed lag and audio sync issues went away but color output was reduced.

I also set all of my devices to SDR as the HDR in my set is crap. My 4K blu-rays suffered for it when the player converted them to SDR. I decided to fish around the “secret menu” in the TV and turned on a feature here and there that suddenly made my HDR content look a whole lot better. So, back to HDR and movie mode with recommended settings with 24fps back on in my devices and all motion smoothing and judder reduction off.

I will still flip between Dynamic and Movie mode only when watching HDR content as SDR content looks terrible in Dynamic mode. It seems to enhance HDR content rather than blowing it out like it does with SDR content. Hey, I like my Marvel movies to pop, sue me. So, that’s where I am now as I secretly hope the TV fails and I can go get that 77” oled.

Wait a minute...

What do you mean by you stopped playing around with it for awhile and it did away with the "laser blast lightning ghosts"?

Were you seeing the same thing I am with fast motion in foreground scenes (and with lightning/flames, etc.) in films -- the ghosting/distortion when that motion gets real heavy and fast?

 

[Trebdp83]

Yes, I was seeing the same thing and couldn’t stand it when watching any Star Wars material so I just turned it off. I didn’t mean that it went away on it’s own. If I turn it back on, it’s still there. The worst of it can be seen when watching “The Mandalorian” season one, episode one at the 29 minute mark to the end. All kinds of laser blast ghosts.

 

[Gmoney]

Yes, I was seeing the same thing and couldn’t stand it when watching any Star Wars material so I just turned it off. I didn’t mean that it went away on it’s own. If I turn it back on. It’s still there. The worst of it can be seen when watching “The Mandalorian” season one, episode one at the 29 minute mark to the end. All kinds of laser blast ghosts.

Wait, what did you turn off? I didn't;t read the whole thread.

 

[Trebdp83]

I turned off motion interpolation. It makes a mess of things.

 

[Gmoney]

I turned off motion interpolation. It makes a mess of things.

Thanks!