Dual PB 2000 Pros have arrived!

[Old Onkyo]

Sounds like you need to turn the subs down during the beginning of the Audyssey process?

So using the Audyssey app for the first time, if I understood correctly there is a green bar and if the speaker icon is in that bar I am good. In my mind that was not as precise as the meter on the Denon. I will try to run just the subs again. Thanks

 

[Old Onkyo]

Sounds like you need to turn the subs down during the beginning of the Audyssey process?

Would the Audyssey subwoofer graph show that?

 

[mazersteven]

Guide to Subwoofer Calibration and Bass Preferences

www.avsforum.com

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Would the Audyssey subwoofer graph show that?View attachment 39759

This graph looks fine. I would leave them they way they are setup.

 

[Old Onkyo]

This graph looks fine. I would leave them they way they are setup.

As well intentioned as your advice is....I can’t help myself! I am going to tweak something, mess up the sound, and come here crying for help!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just remember the green graph is an actual(not high resolution) measurement. The red graph is audyssey’s calculation. NOT an actual measurement. The problem that I see with that, is the huge trough between 30hz and 50hz. If Audyssey can’t do anything about that range due to room mode, it will still be there. Regardless of what the calculation shows. So what I would do, is move the LP, or one of the subs at a time and see what happens. The bitch is that you’ll have to rerun Audyssey every time you move something. I’m gonna recommend rew and umik. Try some positional EQ, as that’s the first rule anyway, and see. I think in most cases the PEQ built in to the subs, and positioning will be enough to tame the room without a minidsp.
So, while Audyssey xt32 with sub eq is pretty damn good, it’s not perfect. And the big takeaway is to look at those graphs with a huge grain of salt. The only way to really get the best out of them, is rew, and imo its absolutely worth the time and money

 

[Pogre]

I think Bill just nailed it. I don't have much to add but to 2nd getting a UMIK and REW. Since your subs have PEQ built in I doubt you'd need a Mini, but with REW you will be able to see what's really going on in your room. It's helped me a lot.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

Bill and Pogre have given you the green light you wanted to play with it and buy a UMIK. Don't be unhappy if you spend hours on it and your ear can't tell much difference with +3db at 50Hz or how to get REW/rat buddy to do your bidding.

If you do get it flat then your next obsession will be looking for bass-a-holic tracks. Welcome to the rabbit hole.

 

[Pogre]

Don't be unhappy if you spend hours on it and your ear can't tell much difference with +3db at 50Hz or how to get REW/rat buddy to do your bidding.

Uhh... wut? lol. That's a pretty negative way to look at it. I would never recommend spending money on something like that if I thought there would be zero audible improvements, and certainly not if someone is within 3 dB of flat... did you look at his Audyssey charts? There appears to be more than a 3 dB fluctuation going on there, but hard to tell because the "final" chart is a prediction, not actual. I'll give you a guess as to what equipment and method would be best to figure it out...

Here's what REW did for me.

That's before making adjustments with my mini. You can see, clearly, there's a 9 dB swing between peak and null! That is SO audible (or not audible in the case of the 5 dB dip)! Now here is my after.

Big difference and it can easily be heard, even if I were to DBT it. There's no way I could have made improvements like that without a UMIK and REW to show me where I had problems.

What would you recommend? Close your eyes, guess and get a new amp? LOL

 

[Pogre]

Just to further hammer my point home, here is what my Audyssey chart looks like.

The "after" in my Audyssey chart looks near perfect! It's not tho, and REW showed me what I was (not) hearing that made my bass sound so thin. Furreals, compare Audyssey's chart to my actual.

It's quite a bit different from Audyssey's prediction. You can't rely on the Audyssey charts for accuracy, which is why we recommend REW and a proper mic.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Bill and Pogre have given you the green light you wanted to play with it and buy a UMIK. Don't be unhappy if you spend hours on it and your ear can't tell much difference with +3db at 50Hz or how to get REW/rat buddy to do your bidding.

If you do get it flat then your next obsession will be looking for bass-a-holic tracks. Welcome to the rabbit hole.

Huh. 10db dip from 30 to almost 70hz. Hardly the same as +3 at 50...
Not sure why you’re needling @Pogre and myself, but why not make the small investment to get the most from his awesome new subs? And why just trust the graphs? Especially when the before shows a huge hole that audyssey likely won’t be able to help?

 

[Pogre]

Huh. 10db dip from 30 to almost 70hz. Hardly the same as +3 at 50...
Not sure why you’re needing @Pogre and myself, but why not make the small investment to get the most from his awesome new subs? And why just trust the graphs? Especially when the before shows a huge hole that audyssey likely won’t be able to help?

I'm beginning to think based on replies I've seen, VMPS has never heard a properly calibrated system so no point of reference as to what we're talking about when it comes to dialing in a flat frequency response. He's dubious someone could hear a difference of 3 dB (which isn't even the case here) but is convinced that one amplifier with minor inaudible, immeasurable differences in frequency response sounds so different from another... but completely dismiss the fact that different rooms were used for the comparison!

@VMPS-TIII you in fact tend to be very dismissive of solid, proven advice quite often and muddy the waters for folks who actually want to learn. I suggest you read up on some of the many articles on this very site that explain most of what you think you hear with your sighted comparisons between amps is really placebo and the fact that they were located in 2 different rooms. Also some reading on room acoustics, frequency response and how it correlates to subjective listening experiences might help clear some things up and help you understand what we talk about when making suggestions like using REW. REW is free, and a UMIK mic is a hell of a lot cheaper ($75) than buying a new amp, speakers or more subs.

Once you understand this stuff I'll bet you can make some major improvements yourself. You have to free your mind of some of the audiophoolery first tho and actually try some of these things for yourself before being so dismissive.

 

[VMPS-TIII]

I'm sure it sounds great. Half the time I don't even turn my subs on and I'm totally happy with that too. (heresy?) I understand the focus on the 20-150Hz range is super important to many of us on this forum. I respect that. You probably only join this forum if you are looking for that last inch of sound improvement or a hardware recommendation? REW and UMIK are helpful tools. But, I also see many of us obsessing about the least little thing rather than simply enjoying what we have.

Some day I'll get REW out and UMIK and see what it shows. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy my music without that process. The journey into personal music exploration is different for each of us. Right now I'm working on sending my 4500 in for repair. That's a another fun experience.

 

[Pogre]

I'm sure it sounds great. Half the time I don't even turn my subs on and I'm totally happy with that too. (heresy?) I understand the focus on the 20-150Hz range is super important to many of us on this forum. I respect that. You probably only join this forum if you are looking for that last inch of sound improvement or a hardware recommendation? REW and UMIK are helpful tools. But, I also see many of us obsessing about the least little thing rather than simply enjoying what we have.

Some day I'll get REW out and UMIK and see what it shows. That doesn't mean I can't enjoy my music without that process. The journey into personal music exploration is different for each of us. Right now I'm working on sending my 4500 in for repair. That's a another fun experience.

I've always enjoyed what I have and music in general. Every experience is going to be different and subjective, of course, but the tools I recommend have done a lot more for me than that last inch tho. The difference is easily heard, transformative and completely changed my perspective on what I considered good sound. The end result is that now I enjoy what I have even more than I did before, for only $75 and a little bit of work. To me that's a huge win. But for the initial hour or 2 I spent dialing things in I don't fuss or obsess over it at all and haven't had my mic out in months. Now I just kick back and enjoy.

 

[Pogre]

But, I also see many of us obsessing about the least little thing rather than simply enjoying what we have.

I think a good example of someone obsessing about the least little thing could be, I dunno... hearing the difference between .0001% and .0003% distortion in amplifiers and running speakers back and forth between 2 different rooms to test it.

All while summarily dismissing the importance of an even frequency response, the ability to measure it and insinuating our advice is useless. Also, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the reason you turn your sub off half the time is likely because of poor integration, resulting in an uneven fr, making it sound like crap. If you could hear a system with a properly integrated sub I don't think you'd ever want to turn it off.

*Edit: And don't even get me started on your "wall of sound" theory, mixing and matching multiple sets of main speakers with different timbres and playing them all at the same time with stereo music... with that in mind I suggest reading up on comb filtering also.

 

[Reckel]

My sub results after running audyssey through app look almost identical to @porge and old old onkyo’s. I do have rew and umik1. This may be a completely dumb question and probably has been asked hundred times but when I run rew, how do I fix the area that needs fixing? I’m sure mine is in the same area that bill said. I definitely do not know everything about this hobby and that’s why I’m on here but I want my system to sound the best it can so I’m trying to learn things from people with experience.

 

[Pogre]

My sub results after running audyssey through app look almost identical to @porge and old old onkyo’s. I do have rew and umik1. This may be a completely dumb question and probably has been asked hundred times but when I run rew, how do I fix the area that needs fixing? I’m sure mine is in the same area that bill said. I definitely do not know everything about this hobby and that’s why I’m on here but I want my system to sound the best it can so I’m trying to learn things from people with experience.

Which receiver do you have? There's an app for MultEQ XT32 now that works with newer Denon/Marantz models for $20 that gives you the ability to make adjustments to Audyssey's curve. It wasn't available when I got the UMIK 1 so I also bought a MiniDSP 2x4 HD for my subs. I really like it better than using the app, but I probably wouldn't have gotten the mini if the app were available at the time. Using the app is a little clunky, but still very effective.

 

[Reckel]

Which receiver do you have? There's an app for MultEQ XT32 now that works with newer Denon/Marantz models for $20 that gives you the ability to make adjustments to Audyssey's curve. It wasn't available when I got the UMIK 1 so I also bought a MiniDSP 2x4 HD for my subs. I really like it better than using the app, but I probably wouldn't have gotten the mini if the app were available at the time. Using the app is a little clunky, but still very effective.

4500, I ran audyssey with the app last night but had to go to work after that and haven’t been able to mess around with stuff

 

[Reckel]

I’m not that familiar with rew yet, limited use. That’s why I was asking how to fix the area that needs fixing, unless I’m able to just do that with the app? These questions I’m asking I’m sure sound dumb but I’m by no means an expert and trying to figure things out

 

[Pogre]

4500, I ran audyssey with the app last night but had to go to work after that and haven’t been able to mess around with stuff

Yeah, I completely brainfarted. Of course you have the app or you wouldn't know what the chart looks like, lol.

The first thing you wanna do is set up and do some sweeps with your UMIK 1 and REW so you know where to start. Once you've identified areas of opportunity you open your file in the app and go to the curve editor. Then you can use your finger or a stylus and alter the curve, up or down, based on your findings. Like this:

That's one way to do it, and you can make multiple adjustments. That's as tight or precise as possible drawing it tho. Now there's also a user designed program called ratbuddyssey that you can use for really tight, precise adjustments and it works really well.

Notice how much sharper, tighter and precise those are compared to drawing it. Here's a link to his thread. A bit of a learning curve, but it was worth it to me. If you really wanna roll up your sleeves and get into it we can help you figure some of it out and don't feel dumb for asking questions! It's how we learn this stuff!