The AVP (D+M anyway..) that has the lowest THD+N measured so far seems to be a Denon AVR!!

Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
" I can guarantee transparency for all people, in all systems and all content if SINAD distortion products are at or below 116 dB (I sometimes round this up to 120).
It would be easy to be certain what SINAD levels are audible if listening tests were performed. Without them, how can you guarantee anything?
Anything below becomes shades of gray. I am sure that vast majority of audiophiles would be stomped at distortion products below -60 dB. So there is a vast gray area between 60 and 116 dB. We can say gear with SINAD of 70 dB is "likely inaudible" to majority of people. But I don't know how to guarantee that."
There is a way to guarantee that in a scientifically valid way. But you choose to ignore it.
How I am reading that he is just saying that it is humanly impossible to hear issues of 116db under any circumstance according to the research. He is also saying that below 60 is clearly audible and 70 is likely inauduble to the majority. The higher the number the more certain you can be that noise/distortion isn't an issue.
Is that determined by listening tests? Where is that data?
My view is simply find products that meet my needs in regards to features etc, and if I have 2 products-one with a SINAD of 70 and the other 100, I would choose the 100 to be more cerain noise or distortion wouldn't be a concern. Without bench testing like Amir does as well as Gene here, we wouldn't have any idea on how these products measure.
Bench testing and listening test results must be correlated before any such conclusion is possible.
It can get silly of course when people are comparing 90 vs 92 in SINAD as I would also assume there is no way you could tell them apart. But there is still a lot of value to these bench tests in seeing how they measure.
It’s silly only because you and others continue to ignore the need for listening tests. Why? Yet you continue to claim to know what SINAD levels are audible and what levels are inaudible, but cite no supporting evidence.

You cannot claim to be scientific if you stick to only lab bench electronic measurements, while ignoring what levels of noise or distortion are audible. Lab bench tests are only one part of the story. It is possible to be scientific and valid while determining how many listeners can hear what levels of noise or distortion. It may be beyond your own level of expertise, I understand that. But you cannot claim to know what noise and distortion levels are audible without performing listening tests. And to be considered scientifically valid, the methods and results of these tests must be described in detail. Anything less is simply an empty internet boast.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I lost count how many times Amir used the term xyz...not audible...., but it never did sink in with a few ASR members..
A lot of guys everywhere (not just ASR) don’t read the entire reviews carefully. They focus on the big derogatory words and ignore the rest of the reviews.

It’s the same with Gene saying the Yamaha CX-A5200’s XLR L/R Channels at 4Vrms has a THD of 0.015% and 0.008% at 2Vrms.

People look at the CX-A5200 as being defective or low quality.

I know I’ve said some derogatory things about ASR. But I also overlooked the point that findings on ASR and AH will help manufacturers improve on the measurements, which most likely will NOT improve sound quality, but it will make most of us (myself included) feel 100% better.

I guess it’s up to us to remind people about the inaudibility part. :D
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
It would be easy to be certain what SINAD levels are audible if listening tests were performed. Without them, how can you guarantee anything?
There is a way to guarantee that in a scientifically valid way. But you choose to ignore it.
Is that determined by listening tests? Where is that data?
Bench testing and listening test results must be correlated before any such conclusion is possible.
It’s silly only because you and others continue to ignore the need for listening tests. Why? Yet you continue to claim to know what SINAD levels are audible and what levels are inaudible, but cite no supporting evidence.

You cannot claim to be scientific if you stick to only lab bench electronic measurements, while ignoring what levels of noise or distortion are audible. Lab bench tests are only one part of the story. It is possible to be scientific and valid while determining how many listeners can hear what levels of noise or distortion. It may be beyond your own level of expertise, I understand that. But you cannot claim to know what noise and distortion levels are audible without performing listening tests. And to be considered scientifically valid, the methods and results of these tests must be described in detail. Anything less is simply an empty internet boast.
Did you read the second article I linked to?
The research of audibiltiy is based on some pretty well established research and some very well regarded individuals and their research.
-Fletcher-Munson -
-Bob Stuart-Meridian
-Louis Fielder-Dolby
These are peer reviewed, documented studies.
It seems they shouldn't be rejected out of hand without looking at them. Are there issues with the logic and/or research and individuals cited?
It seemed pretty logical and pretty well put forth. I will have to look further into it but much of it (such as the Fletcher-Munson studey) was based on actual people listening to test tones etc.
 
E

EBN

Audioholic
I wonder is @PENG having hangover from partying last night, well here is the updated X6700H measurements with capacitor changes. :)

"Engineers struggle to improve system performance by 3 dB. Here, the proper capacitor resulted in whopping 12 dB increase in SINAD. That is a lot of performance to have left on the table. The AVR-X6700H goes from "hmmm? to "now this is nice!" with this component change."

Bravo Denon!

 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
And also interesting is Denon shared theIr new 2021 Marantz SR8015 with Amir, and it also measures very well which is great to see.
5CB7D490-47CE-47DA-ADF6-278C232AEB72.png
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
And also interesting is Denon shared theIr new 2021 Marantz SR8015 with Amir, and it also measures very well which is great to see.View attachment 39116
That one really got my attention. I have to wonder now what have they done to the 2020 flag ship and whether any such improvements would trickle down to the SR7015 and 6015. Keep in mind Denon engineering's numbers were a few dB better than Amir's (iirc, Amir's were due for a calibration that he didn't bother) based on their measurements comparison on the X4700H, but even at 96 dB SINAD, the SR8015 would still outperform the so called separate AV8805.
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
That one really got my attention. I have to wonder now what have they done to the 2020 flag ship and whether any such improvements would trickle down to the SR7015 and 6015. Keep in mind Denon engineering's numbers were a few dB better than Amir's (iirc, Amir's were due for a calibration that he didn't bother) based on their measurements comparison on the X4700H, but even at 96 dB SINAD, the SR8015 would still outperform the so called separate AV8805.
Only 1 way to find out... someone needs to send one in to Amir or Gene needs to test one.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Only 1 way to find out... someone needs to send one in to Amir or Gene needs to test one.
So another $6,000 AVP, this time the SDP-55 from the highly reputable big name JBL, failed to dethrone the best measured Denon AVP (the AVR-X8500H in preamp mode).. Time for you have another drink to celebrate you great choice, and paid less than half that of the JBL!!:D

ASR has now measured at least 5 or 6 high price AVP/C and AH measured the Marantz latest flag ship AVR, and none fail to match Denon's pseudo AVP.:D

Nothing can change AVR haters minds though, I assume..

 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Did Denon/Marantz actually send Amir an DR8015?
Well, we all know now they did send Gene the SR8015, but they've only sent Amir the SINAD measurements. Isn't that funny, one got the measurements (by Marantz, and presumably just in part..), the other got the actual gear to measure on his test bench.:D:D I am not sure if Marantz had sent Amir just the one test he posted about a week before Gene's video, or they sent more but Amir only posted one because...(proprietary, copy rights, confidentiality agreement or just professional ethics etc.etc..)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, we all know now they did send Gene the SR8015, but they've only sent Amir the SINAD measurements. Isn't that funny, one got the measurements (by Marantz, and presumably just in part..), the other got the actual gear to measure on his test bench.:D:D I am not sure if Marantz had sent Amir just the one test he posted about a week before Gene's video, or they sent more but Amir only posted one because...(proprietary, copy rights, confidentiality agreement or just professional ethics etc.etc..)
Yeah, we know exactly who's more important around here - the one who actually got the components to measure. :D

So is Emotiva the only company (small one) that has actually sent Amir a component to measure?

All the other components have been sent to Amir by forum members?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yeah, we know exactly who's more important around here - the one who actually got the components to measure. :D

So is Emotiva the only company (small one) that has actually sent Amir a component to measure?

All the other components have been sent to Amir by forum members?
I think some DAC/headphone amps from manufacturers would send him something once in a while, but as far as I know all but one of the AVRs/AVPs measured so far were from members, even Emotiva. Sometimes a member would purchase it and have the unit drop shipped to him, as was the case with the RMC-1, but I could be wrong and missed one or two.

The only one exception (again, I could be wrong) that I know of, came from D+M, is the AVR-X6700H, because obviously Denon wanted him to measure one that is free from the Covid capacitors.:D The member sent one had the Covid caps (named by another member originally, I am only quoting...:p), that Denon claimed the subpar results were due to those substituted caps.

He is a Haman dealer so if he measures an Arcam, you will see the following, sort of disclaimer, even though the unit would still be from a member.

Arcam AVR10

"Notes: our company Madrona Digital is a dealer for Harman which owns Arcam so feel free to read any level of bias in my review. As a courtesy, I sent a copy of my measurements to Harman/Arcam engineering a week ago. Alas, I have received no feedback. Meanwhile I had to return the unit to its owner."
 
HTNut1975

HTNut1975

Enthusiast
So another $6,000 AVP, this time the SDP-55 from the highly reputable big name JBL, failed to dethrone the best measured Denon AVP (the AVR-X8500H in preamp mode).. Time for you have another drink to celebrate you great choice, and paid less than half that of the JBL!!:D
When you compare the Denon 8500 to the JBL for SINAD, is it commensurate? I ask because the Denon is measured at around 2 V, while the JBL is measured at around 4 V. Arcam’s position is that it was designed for 2 V.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
When you compare the Denon 8500 to the JBL for SINAD, is it commensurate? I ask because the Denon is measured at around 2 V, while the JBL is measured at around 4 V. Arcam’s position is that it was designed for 2 V.
@PENG would know, but the Denon X8500 was probably measured using the Unbalanced RCA at 2V, while the JBL was measured using the Balanced XLR at 4V?

2V Unbalanced = 4V Balanced.

If both were measured using the same Unbalanced RCA, then it is not fair for sure. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When you compare the Denon 8500 to the JBL for SINAD, is it commensurate? I ask because the Denon is measured at around 2 V, while the JBL is measured at around 4 V. Arcam’s position is that it was designed for 2 V.
If the device has balanced connections, that's what Amir will use. If not, he would say so and tell you the reason. I have no doubt he measured the JBL using balanced, and that's why he measured it at 4 V. So the comparisons would be fair.

Again, 2 V unbalanced = 4 V balanced, because +2V minus - 2V = 4 V If anything, theoretically speaking, the Denon would have been in disadvantage because it does not come with balanced connections. Balanced should have lower noise, even if the device is not (more often not) truly end to end balance/differential. Fully end to end balance/differential connections such as the Denon AVP-A1HD1 that was the world's first and only (may still be??) at the time, would have lower distortions as well because if perfectly designed and implemented, even order harmonics would be cancelled.

Just a note, in practice, I have never seen any bench measurements that show noticeably lower distortions or even better SNR based on S&V'e measurements, in fact, more often than not, they showed a little better performance using unbalanced/RCA's. If I remember right, HTHF's did show better measurements with balanced, though still nothing significant.
 
HTNut1975

HTNut1975

Enthusiast
If the device has balanced connections, that's what Amir will use. If not, he would say so and tell you the reason. I have no doubt he measured the JBL using balanced, and that's why he measured it at 4 V. So the comparisons would be fair.

Again, 2 V unbalanced = 4 V balanced, because +2V minus - 2V = 4 V If anything, theoretically speaking, the Denon would have been in disadvantage because it does not come with balanced connections. Balanced should have lower noise, even if the device is not (more often not) truly end to end balance/differential. Fully end to end balance/differential connections such as the Denon AVP-A1HD1 that was the world's first and only (may still be??) at the time, would have lower distortions as well because if perfectly designed and implemented, even order harmonics would be cancelled.

Just a note, in practice, I have never seen any bench measurements that show noticeably lower distortions or even better SNR based on S&V'e measurements, in fact, more often than not, they showed a little better performance using unbalanced/RCA's. If I remember right, HTHF's did show better measurements with balanced, though still nothing significant.
I‘m not against Amir’s methodology. It makes sense. And please know that any point or question I raise is from a neophyte. I don’t know what I’m talking about. I don’t have an engineering background (I literally have to look up basics of electricity to understand some of the terminology that is discussed in the reviews or responses). With some of the concepts, I sort of “get it” but that’s about it.

With that said, one of Arcam’s positions in its response paper is that the processor was designed to output at a lower voltage (even on balanced outputs). This is likely not an ad hoc explanation to counter Amir’s tests, as you can find evidence of this in a review article on Arcam’s previous processor (the av860):


Perhaps that is a mistake on their part. I have no idea why they would if designing it would have enabled the processor (i.e., JBL/Arcam) to drive a wider selection of amps (or even for pure marketing purposes).

With that said, if the Denon 8500 were to drive a typical multichannel amp like an Emotiva, Outlaw, NAD M28, JBL, Arcam, Parasound, Anthem, etc., what would the voltage requirements be to maximize those amps’ rated specs? similarly, what would they be for the JBL? I would venture to guess it is significantly lower than 4 V, no?
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
With that said, if the Denon 8500 were to drive a typical multichannel amp like an Emotiva, Outlaw, NAD M28, JBL, Arcam, Parasound, Anthem, etc., what would the voltage requirements be to maximize those amps’ rated specs?
The answer is 2V (Unbalanced RCA).

If you have an amp that has a Gain of 28dB (Most amps do), then 2V Unbalanced (RCA) or 4V Balanced (XLR) would give you a max of 315 Watts (8 ohms speakers) or 630 Watts (4 ohms speakers).

If the Amp has a Gain of 26dB, then 2V Unbalanced or 4V Balanced would give you a max of 199W/8 ohms or 398W/4 ohms.

If the Amp has Gain of 30dB, then 2V RCA or 4V XLR would give you max of 500W/8 ohms or 1000W/4 ohms.

Some amps are 32dB Gain = 792W/8 ohms, 1584W/4 ohms with 2V RCA or 4V XLR.
 
HTNut1975

HTNut1975

Enthusiast
The answer is 2V (Unbalanced RCA).

If you have an amp that has a Gain of 28dB (Most amps do), then 2V Unbalanced (RCA) or 4V Balanced (XLR) would give you a max of 315 Watts (8 ohms speakers) or 630 Watts (4 ohms speakers).

If the Amp has a Gain of 26dB, then 2V Unbalanced or 4V Balanced would give you a max of 199W/8 ohms or 398W/4 ohms.

If the Amp has Gain of 30dB, then 2V RCA or 4V XLR would give you max of 500W/8 ohms or 1000W/4 ohms.

Some amps are 32dB Gain = 792W/8 ohms, 1584W/4 ohms with 2V RCA or 4V XLR.
Here is Arcam’s response re: voltage, “First graphic – the ASR results are broadly correct in terms of distortion at these settings. ASR set the audio output to be 4V rms for a full scale digital input (0dBFS), so requiring a volume setting of 78, whereas the design output is intended to be less - around 2V rms – to match Arcam power amplifiers (volume 72 or 73). The AV40 uses a number of analogue multiplexers to route its signals internally and their distortion increases with signal level. There is a multiplexer on the L/R channels after the volume control and while this does not overload at 4V rms it does exhibit more distortion including a trace of high order harmonics. This is what he saw and in normal usage at around 2V maximum output this does not occur.”
 

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