Tweeters blown, why? Onkyo TXNR585 Amp and Fluance Signature Speakers

[LetsGetLoud]

I put together a home audio setup with the following.
Onkyo TX NR585 Amplifier

2 Fluance Signature HiFi 3 Way Floor Standing Speakers

2 Fluance Signature Hifi Bipolar Surround Sound Speakers

I blew the tweeters in all speakers all at once listening to some orchestral stuff and from what I can see these amplifiers and speakers are within the specs they should be to work great without blowing. Fluance offers a lifetime warranty for all of these but the said they would need to talk to their sound engineer to see whether this was my fault or not. I gave them the information for amplifier I used and they have simply stopped responding to me. Is this on me or have they oversold their speakers to do what they really can't? Also what happened? Keep this in mind...
1.The amp was turned up almost all the way when they blew.
2.Only the tweeters were affected and they sound ok at lower volumes but not nearly as good as they did, especially when i get the volume up at all.

 

[lovinthehd]

IMO you turned it up too loud Tweeters are the easiest to blow if that helps.....

 

[ryanosaur]

I'll bite.

First, what channels were you running? They all blew out at once? Multi Channel Stereo?
What other equipment in the chain? What was your source, and how was it getting from source to speaker? Did you have any channels boosted through EQ or AVR trim?
How loud were you listening? How long?
Do you have an SPL meter to tell us in dB?

FWIW, I agree with Lovin'. At first glance, you did something that blew all your Tweets at once. That is User Error more likely than not. That you didn't fry your AVR Amp stage is possibly a minor miracle.
My suspicion is that you had the system running too hot, as you described, and therefore probably distorting. Clipping the amp is a guaranteed way to overdrive the tweets, especially if the VCs were already heated up and stressed.

What you described above, if I were Fluance, I'd void the warranty.

If there is more to the story, do tell. We are listening.

 

[lovinthehd]

Keep in mind just because the master volume can be turned up to a "max" position, doesn''t mean you should, or that you're within the clean output of the amp either. Varies with input signal, too.

 

[LetsGetLoud]

Bummer, well thanks for the responses let me answer some of these questions here. I'll start from the top.
All channels running
All blew at once
Multi Channel Stereo
No other equipment
Source was an iPhone at about 3/4 volume - 1/8" aux to RCA
No channels boosted
Just turned it up to 90 (max is 92) almost immediately blew the tweeters, however I VERY OFTEN listened at 87 without any issue (or distortion) for months.

My question is how does one know they're going to blow speakers? The speaker's power handling is within the amp's output power range isn't it? If I'm to buy a new set of speakers (the tweeters are set in with adhesive not screws so I don't see replacing them an option unless someone knows something I don't) then was this amplifier overpowering the speakers? Was it under powering the speakers? What actually happened?

 

[lovinthehd]

Well multich stereo mode is more taxing to an avr's amp section than surround modes. Generally for 2ch playback I don't like the multich stereo modes on avrs except for maybe a party where the stereo imaging/soundstage isn't important. You used this system at 87 frequently? Maybe just lucky at even that high a level. Your avr has a volume scale based on dB (at least most are), so a 3dB spl increase on the master volume dial is asking double the amp power which may have been just enough difference in this case. Most avrs I wouldn't go past a reference volume level. Since your avr manual says it has a volume scale of 1-99 that seems to be the absolute volume scale (vs the reference volume scale which some avrs allow you a choice of), and reference volume is probably something in the area of 82/83 and I'd probably not even go that high with the multich stereo mode.

Usually one dials up volume slowly, listening for signs of distortion/overload.....it's pretty effective that way rather than just starting out at a high level (particularly if it is fairly dynamic content).

If you want to really play loud and risk your hearing, and that's something I don't recommend particularly as that can cause hearing issues later, there are more capable speakers.....maybe something like a pro monitor intended for high listening levels and perhaps a more capable amp than just an avr.

 

[LetsGetLoud]

Well multich stereo mode is more taxing to an avr's amp section than surround modes. Generally for 2ch playback I don't like the multich stereo modes on avrs except for maybe a party where the stereo imaging/soundstage isn't important. You used this system at 87 frequently? Maybe just lucky at even that high a level. Your avr has a volume scale based on dB (at least most are), so a 3dB spl increase on the master volume dial is asking double the amp power which may have been just enough difference in this case. Most avrs I wouldn't go past a reference volume level. Since your avr manual says it has a volume scale of 1-99 that seems to be the absolute volume scale (vs the reference volume scale which some avrs allow you a choice of), and reference volume is probably something in the area of 82/83 and I'd probably not even go that high with the multich stereo mode.

Usually one dials up volume slowly, listening for signs of distortion/overload.....it's pretty effective that way rather than just starting out at a high level (particularly if it is fairly dynamic content).

If you want to really play loud and risk your hearing, and that's something I don't recommend particularly as that can cause hearing issues later, there are more capable speakers.....maybe something like a pro monitor intended for high listening levels and perhaps a more capable amp than just an avr.

87 is loud on this system but trust me nothing anybody couldn't handle. All channel stereo is really the best setting for listening to music hands down on this setup here and come on man I didn't get on these forums to be asked to turn the stereo down. In fact I wouldn't be here at all if that was my prerogative.
I just checked and it actually goes to 96 but that doesn't matter all that much unless that's the reference volume scale you were talking about I guess.
I'm just thinking about my next home audio set up and wondering how one purchases something knowing it will get to the volume they'd like. I'm not joking this this wasn't going to run anyone out of the room at the volume I was listening to, but there must be a reason the speakers couldn't handle it.
My questions are, by the specs have I done anything wrong in matching this amplifier to these speakers?
If I were to have purchased a larger amplifier would I have been able to reach higher volumes without taxing the speakers as much?
Could these speakers handle more wattage, and was my turning an underpowered amplifier way up the culprit?

Again thanks for the responses I'm a novice and need some guidance before buying another setup.

 

[shadyJ]

What might have happened was you drove the amplifier into distortion, and distortion shifts the spectrum of output into higher frequencies. So you overdrived to the amp into shifting much of its energy into treble. The problem with that is tweeters can not handle anywhere near the same amount of current as midrange drivers or especially woofers. Sorry to tell you this, but that model AVR is not a great one, so I could see it getting pushed into distortion pretty easily, especially in recordings with a wide dynamic range like some orchestral recordings.

A better amp might be able to hit the loudness levels that you want without frying the tweeters.

 

[lovinthehd]

87 is loud on this system but trust me nothing anybody couldn't handle. All channel stereo is really the best setting for listening to music hands down on this setup here and come on man I didn't get on these forums to be asked to turn the stereo down. In fact I wouldn't be here at all if that was my prerogative.
I just checked and it actually goes to 96 but that doesn't matter all that much unless that's the reference volume scale you were talking about I guess.
I'm just thinking about my next home audio set up and wondering how one purchases something knowing it will get to the volume they'd like. I'm not joking this this wasn't going to run anyone out of the room at the volume I was listening to, but there must be a reason the speakers couldn't handle it.
My questions are, by the specs have I done anything wrong in matching this amplifier to these speakers?
If I were to have purchased a larger amplifier would I have been able to reach higher volumes without taxing the speakers as much?
Could these speakers handle more wattage, and was my turning an underpowered amplifier way up the culprit?

Again thanks for the responses I'm a novice and need some guidance before buying another setup.

A max wattage rating on a speaker is a vague thing, usually just means a melting point more than sounding good if fed that much power, then there are continuous/program ratings vs peak ratings. Speakers have limits, some have higher limits than others. Also just because your amp has a given wattage rating at a given THD % doesn't mean your amp can't exceed that and get into higher output at higher distortion with a big enough twist of the volume dial, and more easily with a higher level signal than a lower one.

You really can't match just with wattage in any case, and the specs you listed are vague to an extent for both the speaker and avr. Best to consider the impedance of the speakers, the capability of the amp for such, as well as the sensitivity of the speakers and how loud you'll be listening. Take the 170 watts per channel spec you pasted above, here's the detailed spec from your avr's manual:

- Rated Output Power (FTC) (North American) With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000 Hz; rated 80 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.
- Maximum Effective Output Power170 W at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, 1 ch driven of 10% THD
- Dynamic Power (*)* IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power160 W (3 Ω, Front)125 W (4 Ω, Front)85 W (8 Ω, Front)THD+N (Total Harmonic Distortion+Noise)0.08% (20 Hz - 20,000 Hz, half power)

Might like this article on amplifier power needs and some of the linked articles from there https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/truth-about-matching-amplifier-power

 

[Verdinut]

The power amps in your AVR have a power rating of 80 watts each, and even at an output of only 100 watts, they were already clipping causing harmonic frequency content causing a destruction of the Fluance tweeters.
If you want to play music at high volumes, you will have to get speakers that will be able to handle more clean power such as pro audio speakers and amplifiers that can also produce more power without distorting.

 

[TLS Guy]

I can tell yo what you did. You used 5 channel stereo, never a good idea.

Your receiver has a max power output of 170 watts. So if you use 5 channel stereo that is only 34 watts per channel.

So you turned your rig up far too loud, overloaded the amp and pushed into hard clipping. This results in high distortion. These harmonic distortion products are in the high frequency range. So you overloaded your tweeters massively and they all blew instantly from gross overload.

You have an inexpensive and not very powerful receiver. Your speakers are towards the low end of the market. If you want to play at high concert levels, you need to up your equipment budget massively. You need much more powerful amplification and far more expensive speakers with massive motor systems.

You get no warning of when a tweeter will blow as you have found out. Generally as speakers get more expensive, their power handling usually increases in all power bands.

The power handling spec, of all speakers means absolutely nothing as a rule. This is because the power a speaker will take without blowing up is so program dependent. In other words it is totally dependent on power in any given band. For instance pipe organs can belt out continuous power in a tweeters power band and easily blow them. A tweeter is small with thin wire in the voice coil which can heat quickly and blow in an instant. Tweeters can usually take less than 10 watts for any length of time. Fortunately most loud HF content is very transient, but not always.

So this failure is user error and down to you. So the expense of buying and replacing the tweeters will be down to you. It is possible that doing what you did may also have damaged the crossovers.

 

[LetsGetLoud]

Gotta be honest I had no any idea how little $1300 got you in the audio game.
TLS GUY, when you say 5 channel stereo where's the 5th channel come in if I have 4 speakers connected?

Got a few questions for everyone to help me buy a new set up so try and bear with my lack of knowledge here.

Going off you TLS, if an amplifier boasts X watts per channel I'm simply to take the number of channels i'm using and divide that into X to see how many watts each speaker receives? In my case 170 watts per channel from the amp divided by 4 channels? Hell I actually forgot to mention the floor speakers are bi amped so would I now divide 170 by 6?

I'm really trying to figure out how to purchase a nice home audio set up and I'll spend the money but this experience leaves me very afraid of purchasing something more expensive and doing the same thing because I don't understand the math involved to match the amp to the speaker system. Anyone got a golden rule sort of thing to guide me here?

Thanks again guys

 

[TLS Guy]

Gotta be honest I had no any idea how little $1300 got you in the audio game.
TLS GUY, when you say 5 channel stereo where's the 5th channel come in if I have 4 speakers connected?

Got a few questions for everyone to help me buy a new set up so try and bear with my lack of knowledge here.

Going off you TLS, if an amplifier boasts X watts per channel I'm simply to take the number of channels i'm using and divide that into X to see how many watts each speaker receives? In my case 170 watts per channel from the amp divided by 4 channels? Hell I actually forgot to mention the floor speakers are bi amped so would I now divide 170 by 6?

I'm really trying to figure out how to purchase a nice home audio set up and I'll spend the money but this experience leaves me very afraid of purchasing something more expensive and doing the same thing because I don't understand the math involved to match the amp to the speaker system. Anyone got a golden rule sort of thing to guide me here?

Thanks again guys

Sorry I was assuming it was five channel stereo. So you have four. So that would have given you 42 watts per speaker. You don't want to go down that multi channel stereo mode. If you want some ambiance, then use the Dolby upmixer.

There are no golden rules about powering speakers, just experience and common sense. Just remember how hot even an incandescent light bulb gets with 40 watts running through it. The wire in a speaker VC gets just as hot with 40 watts going through it without let up. However there is no inert gas in the VC so it just fries.

My best advice is to constantly be aware how hot wires get when you pass electric current through them.

 

[LetsGetLoud]

Sorry I was assuming it was five channel stereo. So you have four. So that would have given you 42 watts per speaker. You don't want to go down that multi channel stereo mode. If you want some ambiance, then use the Dolby upmixer.

There are no golden rules about powering speakers, just experience and common sense. Just remember how hot even an incandescent light bulb gets with 40 watts running through it. The wire in a speaker VC gets just as hot with 40 watts going through it without let up. However there is no inert gas in the VC so it just fries.

My best advice is to constantly be aware how hot wires get when you pass electric current through them.

Well I don't have the experience, but I've got enough common sense to know to hop over to a forum talking about matching amplifiers and speakers ratings. If anyone has any info on that and stumbles upon this just chime in I'll be forever grateful!

 

[shadyJ]

Well I don't have the experience, but I've got enough common sense to know to hop over to a forum talking about matching amplifiers and speakers ratings. If anyone has any info on that and stumbles upon this just chime in I'll be forever grateful!

Speaker power handling specifications are pretty much just ambiguous nonsense. They are just vague guidelines. Many AVR power ratings are likewise inflated unless you know what specs to look for.

Here is an article that you should take a look at.

You might just buy some powered speakers avoid this issue completely. Audioholics has just ran a good review of some very affordable and powerful ones right here. Those speakers have protection circuits so you can kill them like you did with the Onkyo/Fluance pairing. You can crank it and not have to worry.

 

[lovinthehd]

You might play around with an spl calculator to get an idea on the relationship of power/sensitivity/distance like this http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html. Some of the old school thought was to get an amp rated double the max ratings of the speakers (but don't use those inflated figures like the "170 watts" here, but that doesn't mean you might not fry another set of speakers if they can't handle it. I'd also check out the article ShadyJ linked that I did earlier as well as a starting point, as well as other articles under the AV Research tab at the top of the page.

 

[TLS Guy]

Well I don't have the experience, but I've got enough common sense to know to hop over to a forum talking about matching amplifiers and speakers ratings. If anyone has any info on that and stumbles upon this just chime in I'll be forever grateful!

Well any one talking about matching the power of an amp to speakers, is talking out of the back of their necks. It would be more appropriate to talk about matching program to speakers. It is quite impossible to say that x amp will match y speakers. That is nonsense. Shady has a good point about pursuing powered speakers, that certainly could be an option for you. Actually we really do need to move to active speakers, and move smartly away from passive ones. The advantages of doing so would be enormous and far beyond preventing driver damage.

 

[ryanosaur]

but I've got enough common sense to know to hop over to a forum talking about matching amplifiers and speakers ratings.

Go for it.
Is this the same common sense that blew your speakers?
Fact is, you’ve been given great advice. Yet you seem to know more than a professional speaker reviewer, the 2 guys who are very skilled at building their own systems plus a couple other skilled DIYers, at least one formally trained professional musician...
Many of us are experienced with basic acoustics too.

I’d suggest checking out some of the information you’ve been given, forget the old dogma, and be willing to learn something!

Good luck!

 

[TLS Guy]

Go for it.
Is this the same common sense that blew your speakers?
Fact is, you’ve been given great advice. Yet you seem to know more than a professional speaker reviewer, the 2 guys who are very skilled at building their own systems plus a couple other skilled DIYers, at least one formally trained professional musician...
Many of us are experienced with basic acoustics too.

I’d suggest checking out some of the information you’ve been given, forget the old dogma, and be willing to learn something!

Good luck!

Very good advice you have given LetsGoDeaf!

 

[mazersteven]

I’d suggest checking out some of the information you’ve been given, forget the old dogma, and be willing to learn something!

Good luck!