The AVP (D+M anyway..) that has the lowest THD+N measured so far seems to be a Denon AVR!!

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It is no longer the AVR-X3600H, it just got demoted to No.2/3, along with the Emotiva RMC-1.


0.0007%, or -103 dB

The amp section did not measure too well though, about the same as the likes of the Outlaw M2200, not as good as the its littlest brother X3600H, amazingly.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
It is no longer the AVR-X3600H, it just got demoted to No.2/3, along with the Emotiva RMC-1.


0.0007%, or -103 dB

The amp section did not measure too well though, about the same as the likes of the Outlaw M2200, not as good as the its littlest brother X3600H, amazingly.
I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????
 
D

DJ7675

Audioholic
I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????
Highest SINAD which is lowest noise plus distortion. I rather like it as opposed to the more traditional .00xxx format. It is easier to read/compare, at least for me!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.
He did measure cross talk, most of the time anyway. None of the Denon, or any AVR measured well on that one, understandably. Even the $6,600 NAD preamp/processor managed just -92 dB at 1 kHz and -71 dB at 20 kHz, vs the X3600H's -85 dB/-68.5 dB, 1/20 kHz. He typically would note something like "not an audible concern.." Put it this way, you can spend more, such as $6,000 on a Ortofon Xpression and you will be lucky to get 25 dB of channel separation at 15 kHz.:D:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm a bit confused.....high THD+N = Bad!

I thinking the title should be "low THD+N", or "best THD+N", or "highest S/N"????
Thank you, I actually meant highest -ve number in dB (i.e. -103 dB as stated in the post), but you are absolutely right, it was confusing for sure.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Highest SINAD which is lowest noise plus distortion. I rather like it as opposed to the more traditional .00xxx format. It is easier to read/compare, at least for me!
He was right though as I did refer to THD+N, not SINAD. That's why he found it confusing. Thread title edited.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Looks like 256W x 2Ch 4 ohms, 171W x 2Ch 8 ohms, 1% THD?

I guess he doesn't believe in Crosstalk measurement like The Audio Critic, Stereophile, S&V, and AH.
Peng beat me to it with the vinyl snark on crosstalk measurements :) Seriously, has this been an issue in recent years whatsoever?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
He did measure cross talk, most of the time anyway. None of the Denon, or any AVR measured well on that one, understandably. Even the $6,600 NAD preamp/processor managed just -92 dB at 1 kHz and -71 dB at 20 kHz, vs the X3600H's -85 dB/-68.5 dB, 1/20 kHz. He typically would note something like "not an audible concern.." Put it this way, you can spend more, such as $6,000 on a Ortofon Xpression and you will be lucky to get 25 dB of channel separation at 15 kHz.:D:D
Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements? :D

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V. :D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Peng beat me to it with the vinyl snark on crosstalk measurements :) Seriously, has this been an issue in recent years whatsoever?
Has THD+N ever been an issue in any years? But Amir sure make it out like THD of > 0.01% is horrible, right?

So many of us have never looked at crosstalk, SNR, THD, FR, SINAD, etc. as a "concern" because they are inaudible. But if we're going to compare numbers, then let's look at all the numbers, including crosstalk.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements? :D

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V. :D
Those days are gone, basically, avrs/able are more jam packed now.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Those days are gone, basically, avrs/able are more jam packed now.
The RX-A1020 is a 7.2 AVR.

I remember when The Audio Critic reviewed the Acurus RL11 Analog 2Ch Preamp (no Tones, no DSP, nothing). It had a Crosstalk of -92dB at 1kHz and Peter Aczel was saying that was great.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Has THD+N ever been an issue in any years? But Amir sure make it out like THD of > 0.01% is horrible, right?

So many of us have never looked at crosstalk, SNR, THD, FR, SINAD, etc. as a "concern" because they are inaudible. But if we're going to compare numbers, then let's look at all the numbers, including crosstalk.
Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"
What did he say about THD? Don't worry unless THD is > 1%, which would be a CLIPPING amplifier? :D

Yeah, most of us here on AH have never worried about any of these numbers.

Now we see ASR talk about THD of 0.0007% and saying that THD of 0.003% (SINAD -90dB) isn't SOTA? :D
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Gotcha. I still am reminded by Douglas Self's (amp designer) comments on crosstalk:
"Interchannel crosstalk can obviously degrade stereo separation, but the effect is not detectable until it is worse than 20dB, which would be a very bad amplifier indeed"
Right....and good to see you quoting one of the great amp designers!
You do know you can buy his designs? Of course, he has commercial designs for various companies, but this is his direct site:

Now, think about "crosstalk" in a real world music venue.......it kind of loses all significance because of course your ears will have "crosstalk"
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
What did he say about THD? Don't worry unless THD is > 1%, which would be a CLIPPING amplifier? :D

Yeah, most of us here on AH have never worried about any of these numbers.

Now we see ASR talk about THD of 0.0007% and saying that THD of 0.003% (SINAD -90dB) isn't SOTA? :D
I'm not sure about Douglas Self, but G Randy Slone says the design goal of any amplifier should be THD+N <0.1%
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Did he also say, "NOT an AUDIBLE concern" for THD+N, SINAD, and all the other measurements? :D

I mean who's going to hear THD of less than 0.1%, but he talks like THD of 0.01% or higher is a concern?

BTW, the Yamaha RX-A1020 had a Crosstalk @ 1kHz of -99.5dB and -103.6dB on S&V. :D
I don't know about Doug Self, but I doubt Amir would go that far, but I have seen him calm people down by saying something like:

"You won't be able to hear it. The distortion is still low enough to not be noticed in normal listening. "


0.1% may look fine to most people if that is the worse case scenario, but if it is measured with a 1 kHz signal at rated output, then it could be much higher at 10 kHz and it may also be much higher at between 0.2 to 1 W.

So for me, if it is something measured by S&V, typically at 1 kHz and at rated output, I would want to see no more than 0.05%, knowing that under some conditions it could be much higher.

As far as what is the acceptable level of THD, it could be a matter of opinion to some extent, but in general the lower the better.
 
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GatorPigDog

GatorPigDog

Audioholic
Glad it tested well. I will be wiring an armada of speakers to mine soon. :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Right....and good to see you quoting one of the great amp designers!
You do know you can buy his designs? Of course, he has commercial designs for various companies, but this is his direct site:

Now, think about "crosstalk" in a real world music venue.......it kind of loses all significance because of course your ears will have "crosstalk"
I haven't got the bug for a diy amp....yet. Thanks for the website, hadn't been there.
 
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