thinking Denon AVR-X4700H in pre amp with Audio Control Pantages G4

[roadwarrior]

Yeah you are right, I forget that preamp mode, unlike the 8500"s is all or none.

No worries. Finally right about something.

 

[PENG]

I muse be misunderstanding, i will be usig the 4700 (decided not to do 3700) in PRE AMP mode. The 4700 will just be processor. I will be using a great amp that dynaudio engineers themselves recommend. The audio control pantages g4 (5 channel beast of an amp). The 4700 wont be driving the speakers at all

maybe I’m misunderstanding your point...

You are right, I did not pay attention to your thread title but just what you wrote in the post. In your post you wrote 3700, and no mentioning of the G4. But it is my fault, I should have paid attention to the thread title.

My comments still apply except as roadwarrior reminded me, you need a 5 channel amp. I am not familiar with the Pantages G4 but the specs do not look all that impressive to me so I would stick to the other amps I mentioned but that's just me. If you like the Pantages G4, go for it, it should work well with the AVR-X4700H.

 

[roadwarrior]

You are right, I did not pay attention to your thread title but just what you wrote in the post. In your post you wrote 3700, and no mentioning of the G4. But it is my fault, I should have paid attention to the thread title.

My comments still apply except as roadwarrior reminded me, you need a 5 channel amp. I am not familiar with the Pantages G4 but the specs do not look all that impressive to me so I would stick to the other amps I mentioned but that's just me. If you like the Pantages G4, go for it, it should work well with the AVR-X4700H.

The Outlaw 5000 might be a good option as well.

 

[PENG]

Respectfully, no They are not. Doesn't matter what you've read on Denon's website. The 6700 has a totally different design team than the Vietnam built 3700 based in Japan that also designs and builds their flagship receiver 8500. Better parts, better build quality and more features but yes other than that they are exactly the same. The 3700 may fit your needs to a tee and that's perfectly fine but trying to convince yourself that it's the same receiver as a flagship based model is kind of a head scratcher. It's front panel is plastic with a single line display, no Auro 3D upmixer, no custom 2 channel stereo settings, no dual 12 volt triggers, no front USB input etc.. and that's just comparing it to the receiver above it that is built in the same line as the 3700 and is it's comparator not the 6700. I still think you're making a good decision though going with the 3700.

Is that different design team talk from a reliable source, any link will be appreciated.
In comparing the 2017/2019 models, the audio signal chain from input to preamp output between the 3000, 4000, 6000 series have been near identical if not identical.

Even the power amp sections look almost identical, though the 6000 series do have different output devices and look almost identical to the X8500H, plus they have slightly larger PS transformers. All that might have changed for the 2020 models, so again if you have link to more info please share, appreciated.

 

[Jordan Friedman]

Is that different design team talk from a reliable source, any link will be appreciated.
In comparing the 2017/2019 models, the audio signal chain from input to preamp output between the 3000, 4000, 6000 series have been near identical if not identical.

Even the power amp sections look almost identical, though the 6000 series do have different output devices and look almost identical to the X8500H, plus they have slightly larger PS transformers. All that might have changed for the 2020 models, so again if you have link to more info please share, appreciated.

Thanks. Curious about this as well


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[AcuDefTechGuy]

it's not about what makes me "feel" high end. I don't care what the brands in my cabinet or flexing online to strangers. What I care about is performance and value.

Performance and value are also very subjective.

At what point do some people say that their AVRs don’t have “enough power”? When they have to increase the volume knob to 0.0dB? And then later realize that the volume setting doesn’t really mean that the AVR doesn’t have enough power.

Do they ”think” they can hear their AVRs or speakers “straining” so it means they need an external amp?

Regarding performance and value, what about just using flagship AVRs (that they can buy on sale for $1500) that can output about 300W into 4 ohms x 2CH? If it sounds great, why spend $2400 on any external amps?

But you want something in-between? Don’t want all separates because that cost more than you want?

What if you could buy a major brand pre-pro on sale for under $1600?

 

[roadwarrior]

Is that different design team talk from a reliable source, any link will be appreciated.
In comparing the 2017/2019 models, the audio signal chain from input to preamp output between the 3000, 4000, 6000 series have been near identical if not identical.

Even the power amp sections look almost identical, though the 6000 series do have different output devices and look almost identical to the X8500H, plus they have slightly larger PS transformers. All that might have changed for the 2020 models, so again if you have link to more info please share, appreciated.

This has been confirmed by JDsmoothie, Selden Bell and Batpig over the years plus talked about by others familiar with the specific people involved in the Shirakawa Japan plants engineering team. I can't think of the head engineers name off hand who is in charge of the 6700 and 8500's production but he works for Sound United whereas the Vietnam plant that manufacture all the other Denon Marantz line is owned and operated by the Sherwood/Inkel group that manufactures many different types of electronics for multiple businesses other than SU and SU has a seperate design team for those models. The 6700/8500's lead engineer's name was mentioned by someone on the initial 4700 review on ASR I believe as well but I'm not inclined to go through 30 something pages of comments to find it again.

Bigguyca went over the 6700 mains amplifier board differences as well on ASR in great detail. There's also the different feature set that the 6000 series offers. More channels, superior dialogue enhancer etc.. Just because you can't measure something on an oscilloscope doesn't mean there isn't better value there for the consumer.

 

[PENG]

This has been confirmed by JDsmoothie, Selden Bell and Batpig over the years plus talked about by others familiar with the specific people involved in the Shirakawa Japan plants engineering team. I can't think of the head engineers name off hand who is in charge of the 6700 and 8500's production but he works for Sound United whereas the Vietnam plant that manufacture all the other Denon Marantz line is owned and operated by the Sherwood/Inkel group that manufactures many different types of electronics for multiple businesses other than SU and SU has a seperate design team for those models. The 6700/8500's lead engineer's name was mentioned by someone on the initial 4700 review on ASR I believe as well but I'm not inclined to go through 30 something pages of comments to find it again.

Bigguyca went over the 6700 mains amplifier board differences as well on ASR in great detail. There's also the different feature set that the 6000 series offers. More channels, superior dialogue enhancer etc.. Just because you can't measure something on an oscilloscope doesn't mean there isn't better value there for the consumer.

Thanks, if that's the source, I read about some of those at AVSF, but I have my doubt and will purchase the service manual of a couple of the 2020 models to see it for myself. Until then, to me those are hearsay, but I can't assume they were wrong about the 2020 models. None of the 2020 model's SMs are available yet for purchase so I have to wait.

My point was not about measurements, it's about the circuitry, parts used based on the 2016 through 2019 I have seen, that the prepro section of the 3500, 3600, 4500, 6500 are the same in terms of parts and circuitry.

 

[Jordan Friedman]

Performance and value are also very subjective.

At what point do some people say that their AVRs don’t have “enough power”? When they have to increase the volume knob to 0.0dB? And then later realize that the volume setting doesn’t really mean that the AVR doesn’t have enough power.

Do they ”think” they can hear their AVRs or speakers “straining” so it means they need an external amp?

Regarding performance and value, what about just using flagship AVRs (that they can buy on sale for $1500) that can output about 300W into 4 ohms x 2CH? If it sounds great, why spend $2400 on any external amps?

But you want something in-between? Don’t want all separates because that cost more than you want?

What if you could buy a major brand pre-pro on sale for under $1600?

I hear you but I also don’t understand the point you are trying to make?

I wouldn’t buy a car because it “feels” faster 0-60. It either is or it isn’t.

With sound, we get tricked so easily with poop that just has no subjective or objective difference. It muddies the water on real things that matter

Either way, will be a fun test! I’ll keep everyone posted


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[PENG]

I hear you but I also don’t understand the point you are trying to make?

I wouldn’t buy a car because it “feels” faster 0-60. It either is or it isn’t.

With sound, we get tricked so easily with poop that just has no subjective or objective difference. It muddies the water on real things that matter

Either way, will be a fun test! I’ll keep everyone posted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With those speakers, I have no doubt the power amp will make a good difference at high output level. At low output level, for example, if the 4700 is only outputting a few watt average, with peaks to 50 or even 100 W, then you will most likely not be able to tell in a blind listening test. Regardless, your speakers deserve a power amp, one that has better specs than the G4, and preferably one that has been bench tested. That's just my opinion, its your money, so obviously your decision..

 

[lovinthehd]

With those speakers, I have no doubt the power amp will make a good difference at high output level. At low output level, for example, if the 4700 is only outputting a few watt average, with peaks to 50 or even 100 W, then you will most likely not be able to tell in a blind listening test. Regardless, your speakers deserve a power amp, one that has better specs than the G4, and preferably one that has been bench tested. That's just my opinion, its your money, so obviously your decision..

What is it about the Audio Source amp you're doubting particularly? What better spec would you think applies? First I've heard of these amps but look interesting altho I think they are a bit expensive. Maybe OP can have it shipped to Amir at ASR for a test before home install?

 

[Jordan Friedman]

What is it about the Audio Source amp you're doubting particularly? What better spec would you think applies? First I've heard of these amps but look interesting altho I think they are a bit expensive. Maybe OP can have it shipped to Amir at ASR for a test before home install?

I only heard of Audio Control directly from Dynaudio engineers. They use Audio Control personally and professionally! They said it is near impossible to touch the performance and value of the Pantages G4

 

[lovinthehd]

I only heard of Audio Control directly from Dynaudio engineers. They use Audio Control personally and professionally! They said it is near impossible to touch the performance and value of the Pantages G4

Last I heard much about Audio Control were some home distribution amps. Way back I had a nice Audio Control graphic eq I'm just going by what I see on their website....when searching the amp this thread came up as a second result! If it's good enough for Dynaudio I suppose that's good enough....they owned by the same company perhaps, tho?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I hear you but I also don’t understand the point you are trying to make?

My point is that a 5Ch amp for $2400 isn't usually considered "value".

It's not going to sound or perform better than the $1500 Monolith 200x5 amp (made by ATI).

If you're willing to spend $2400 on a 5Ch amp, why not just get a Pre-pro from Marantz or Yamaha + the $1500 Monolith 200W x 5Ch amp. Then your system will be all "Separates".

I mean getting the Denon X4700 + $2400 5Ch amp is more expensive than getting a Marantz AV7705 or Yamaha CX-A5100 + Monolith 200x5 amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If you set your speakers to "small" like many of us (regardless of speaker size) and let the subwoofers do all the heavy lifting, then your speakers will definitely not require much power. In this case, your AVR alone has enough power. Some of these mid-price AVRs can output 300W x 2Ch into 4 ohms. So they have enough power.

Now if you absolutely must have amps, you could also let the AVR power your surround speakers, while the Monolith 200x3Ch amp powers the main front 3 speakers, which require the most power, aside from the subwoofers (since bass requires most power).

I think most people would consider these 2 options more "value" than spending $2400 on a 5Ch amp.

 

[PENG]

What is it about the Audio Source amp you're doubting particularly? What better spec would you think applies? First I've heard of these amps but look interesting altho I think they are a bit expensive. Maybe OP can have it shipped to Amir at ASR for a test before home install?

You meant Audio Control I assume.. No it isn't for my sake, it's for the OP's sake lol.. Dont' you get the sense that he's already been influenced/biased by the "Dynaudio engineers", in his post#6 he said "I will be using a great amp that dynaudio engineers themselves recommend.."?

Pantages G4 performance specs:

PANTAGES G4

Built from a legacy of respected premium power amplifiers, AudioControl’s G4 series amplifiers offer effortless power and efficiency, delivering impressively dynamic and detailed audio across all...

www.audiocontrol.com

• Amplifier Channels: 5
• Power Output (8Ω): 230 watts per channel
• Power Output (4Ω): 300 watts per channel
• Power Ouput (8Ω Bridged Mono): 600 watts
• Minimum Speaker Load: 4Ω
• Damping Factor: >450
• Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.04% (230 watts @ 8 ohms 20 Hz-20 kHz)
• Signal to Noise: >102dB, A-wtd ref Full Output
• Frequency Response: 10 Hz -20 kHz, ±1 dB

That's not confirmed by bench measurements, but take it what it is, how is it better than the internal amp's performance as confirmed by ASR.

AVR-X4700H:

THD+N.................0.0024% at 124 WPC into 8 ohms two channels driven
THD+N.................0.005% at 173 WPC into 4 ohms two channel driven
SNR......................105 dB full bandwidth (unweighted)

So how is the Pantages G4 better, except for less than 3 dB more output

So I am simply trying to subtly indicate that base on specs, that amp isn't really "great". I have no idea why those Dynaudio engineers would think nothing can touch that particular amp, though I have my guess.

For me, and I guess you too, 0.05% THD+N and 0.001% THD+N likely make no audible difference, but for the OP who obviously is thinking of buying a "great" amp to match his great speakers so I just want him to get the best amp for the same amount of money can buy. But then I believe only in specs and measurements can define how great an amp is at a price point, not by someone's subjective opinion.

Having seen so many ASR measurements, I am getting more and more skeptical about the so called separates actual measured performance, aside from marketing hypes and the often obviously better build quality.

Note: The Audocontrol Pantages G4 may measure better than the specs indicate. That's why I would like to see bench test measurements but couldn't find any.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You meant Audio Control I assume.. No it isn't for my sake, it's for the OP's sake lol.. Dont' you get the sense that he's already been influenced/biased by the "Dynaudio engineers", in his post#6 he said "I will be using a great amp that dynaudio engineers themselves recommend.."?

Pantages G4 performance specs:

PANTAGES G4

Built from a legacy of respected premium power amplifiers, AudioControl’s G4 series amplifiers offer effortless power and efficiency, delivering impressively dynamic and detailed audio across all...

www.audiocontrol.com

• Amplifier Channels: 5
• Power Output (8Ω): 230 watts per channel
• Power Output (4Ω): 300 watts per channel
• Power Ouput (8Ω Bridged Mono): 600 watts
• Minimum Speaker Load: 4Ω
• Damping Factor: >450
• Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.04% (230 watts @ 8 ohms 20 Hz-20 kHz)
• Signal to Noise: >102dB, A-wtd ref Full Output
• Frequency Response: 10 Hz -20 kHz, ±1 dB

That's not confirmed by bench measurements, but take it what it is, how is it better than the internal amp's performance as confirmed by ASR.

AVR-X4700H:

THD+N.................0.0024% at 124 WPC into 8 ohms two channels driven
THD+N.................0.005% at 173 WPC into 4 ohms two channel driven
SNR......................105 dB full bandwidth (unweighted)

So how is the Pantages G4 better, except for less than 3 dB more output

So I am simply trying to subtly indicate that base on specs, that amp isn't really "great". I have no idea why those Dynaudio engineers would think nothing can touch that particular amp, though I have my guess.

For me, and I guess you too, 0.05% THD+N and 0.001% THD+N likely make no audible difference, but for the OP who obviously is thinking of buying a "great" amp to match his great speakers so I just want him to get the best amp for the same amount of money can buy. But then I believe only in specs and measurements can define how great an amp is at a price point, not by someone's subjective opinion.

Having seen so many ASR measurements, I am getting more and more skeptical about the so called separates actual measured performance, aside from marketing hypes and the often obviously better build quality.

Note: The Audocontrol Pantages G4 may measure better than the specs indicate. That's why I would like to see bench test measurements but couldn't find any.

Yeah SNR of 102dBA is more like specs for a pro-amp like a $300 Crown amp, which isn't bad, but not "great".

In contrast, the SNR spec on the ATI amps range from 120 to 128dBA.

But I guess some people think there is "synergy" magic going on between this amp and the speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

You meant Audio Control I assume.. No it isn't for my sake, it's for the OP's sake lol.. Dont' you get the sense that he's already been influenced/biased by the "Dynaudio engineers", in his post#6 he said "I will be using a great amp that dynaudio engineers themselves recommend.."?

Pantages G4 performance specs:

PANTAGES G4

Built from a legacy of respected premium power amplifiers, AudioControl’s G4 series amplifiers offer effortless power and efficiency, delivering impressively dynamic and detailed audio across all...

www.audiocontrol.com

• Amplifier Channels: 5
• Power Output (8Ω): 230 watts per channel
• Power Output (4Ω): 300 watts per channel
• Power Ouput (8Ω Bridged Mono): 600 watts
• Minimum Speaker Load: 4Ω
• Damping Factor: >450
• Total Harmonic Distortion: 0.04% (230 watts @ 8 ohms 20 Hz-20 kHz)
• Signal to Noise: >102dB, A-wtd ref Full Output
• Frequency Response: 10 Hz -20 kHz, ±1 dB

That's not confirmed by bench measurements, but take it what it is, how is it better than the internal amp's performance as confirmed by ASR.

AVR-X4700H:

THD+N.................0.0024% at 124 WPC into 8 ohms two channels driven
THD+N.................0.005% at 173 WPC into 4 ohms two channel driven
SNR......................105 dB full bandwidth (unweighted)

So how is the Pantages G4 better, except for less than 3 dB more output

So I am simply trying to subtly indicate that base on specs, that amp isn't really "great". I have no idea why those Dynaudio engineers would think nothing can touch that particular amp, though I have my guess.

For me, and I guess you too, 0.05% THD+N and 0.001% THD+N likely make no audible difference, but for the OP who obviously is thinking of buying a "great" amp to match his great speakers so I just want him to get the best amp for the same amount of money can buy. But then I believe only in specs and measurements can define how great an amp is at a price point, not by someone's subjective opinion.

Having seen so many ASR measurements, I am getting more and more skeptical about the so called separates actual measured performance, aside from marketing hypes and the often obviously better build quality.

Note: The Audocontrol Pantages G4 may measure better than the specs indicate. That's why I would like to see bench test measurements but couldn't find any.

Dang thought I checked myself with the Audio Source/Control thing....too similar of a name.

I just thought you should spell it out more for the OP . I did find some evidence of partnering on some projects between Dynaudio and Audio Control in a Sound Partnership Program for a product line, tho. I'd also like to see a measurement, thus if the OP did buy it and was willing to send it to ASR for such....

I'd get the Monolith 5 first myself, or actually just a coupla Crown XLS amps (you know me well ) altho they are more like $400 amps for the 1502 now (altho I did get a 2502 used for $400 recently). Altho I'd actually just start off with the avr alone and see if any more amp is even needed these days having gone the avr/amp route a coupla times myself. That the G4 is rated for 230 wpc in 8 ohm and only 300 wpc in 4 ohm (if the 4 ohm rating is even on same basis, which I don't see particularly) isn't all that impressive either.

 

[Jordan Friedman]

Yeah SNR of 102dBA is more like specs for a pro-amp like a $300 Crown amp, which isn't bad, but not "great".

In contrast, the SNR spec on the ATI amps range from 120 to 128dBA.

But I guess some people think there is "synergy" magic going on between this amp and the speakers.

thanks! again...this is literally what i am trying to get at. I just want to cut through the BS and but everytime i think i get it, someone throws a wrench in plans =)

take ASR for instance: they cut through bullshit one review and then they review a 10,000 processor and says "oh my god highest recommendation" but for what? what is the 10,000 processor giving me over the $2500 6700H denon?

and i know it depends on setup and how loud you go. If i had a 11 channel atmos blah blah setup i know we would need more power than a receiver but on a 5.1?

lastly, the audo control pantages does 300 WPC on 4 ohm...isn't that more power than the Denon 4700x at 178 WPC at 4 ohm?

i dont know how to read amp specs or understand what they mean =)

 

[lovinthehd]

thanks! again...this is literally what i am trying to get at. I just want to cut through the BS and but everytime i think i get it, someone throws a wrench in plans =)

take ASR for instance: they cut through bullshit one review and then they review a 10,000 processor and says "oh my god highest recommendation" but for what? what is the 10,000 processor giving me over the $2500 6700H denon?

and i know it depends on setup and how loud you go. If i had a 11 channel atmos blah blah setup i know we would need more power than a receiver but on a 5.1?

lastly, the audo control pantages does 300 WPC on 4 ohm...isn't that more power than the Denon 4700x at 178 WPC at 4 ohm?

i dont know how to read amp specs or understand what they mean =)

What was the $10k processor?

This article help? https://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/basic-amplifier-measurement-techniques