Subwoofer upgrade...time to get serious.....ish

[hextall27]

First off I have Klipsch towers and center channel along with a sw-115 sub. I wanted some more umph n depth, really just a better sub. I love Klipsch but their subs are...subpar. I was looking to get dual subs this time and relegate the sw-115 to the workout room. I was wondering if the SVS SB-3000 or SB4000 would be a good fit for my large basement (16x24) finished. I was also looking at the monoprice monolith Ultra 15's. Just want to make the right decision as its going to be a hit to the wallet I only want to do once and not have buyers remorse. This is basically for movies and occasional music. I have a Denon avr-6400h, l/r-Klipsch RF-82ii and a RC-62 center. TV is an LG 86 inch nano series9. Any advice is appreciated!!

 

[shadyJ]

If this is going to be a one-time purchase, I would go for two subs that attain a certain performance level instead of one big sub. What I would be looking for is a flat response down to at least 20 Hz. I would be looking at ported subwoofers, not sealed ones. Look at a pair of SVS 2000 subs or Hsu VTF-2 mk5s. Maybe a pair of Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12s.

 

[KEW]

The SW-115 sub is one of very, very few subs produced by an established mainstream manufacturer that is competitive (when discounted)! It certainly is not in the same league as the SVS 3000 series, but I am a little worried that you may be blaming room issues on the sub. What have you done to integrate the sub into the room?
Auddyssey XT32? Sub Crawl? REW plus miniDSP, etc? It sounds like you are ready to buy a sub anyway and want to put the SW-115 in your exercise room, so go ahead, but if your new sub isn't all you'd hoped it to be, you probably need to invest time and effort into better tuning the sub to your room! Unfortunately, a sub is an item where you can buy the very best and it can still suck because of your room (where the sub is located in the room) - just don't forget that the room is a big component for bass! If this turns out to be an issue, we can help you sort it out. Dual subs, like ShadyJ suggests are a good start at taming room related issues!

Since you mentioned the hit to your wallet, I thought I'd make some comments:
1) SVS is generally the most expensive of the ID subs. For that, you get the 45 day no-risk returns, generally better cosmetics (although I am not a fan of the curved metal grill), and truly excellent customer service (although the other companies have great CS). SVS also has the control app, which some love and others would rather have knobs.
2) Hsu is generally the value leader if you want maximum performance/dollar.
3) Given your timing, I would wait to see if there are any July 4th sales. Generally, none of these companies participate in sales with the exception of Outlaw Audio, so keep an eye on their website in particular! An Outlaw on sale usually beats everything else for value, but the virus puts a wild card on everything!
4) Keep an eye on B-stock. SVS in particular has a pretty high volume of B-stock items in their outlet and buyers have always (that I have read) been thrilled with the condition. For SVS, if there is a serious blemish, they will give it a major discount and describe the problem with pictures; however, their typical B-stock requires close inspection to find the issue. I think it is safe to say (from all I have read) you will not see anything under standard in-home lighting from 3 feet or farther. Many say there is no damage, but if they go back to look at SVS's photo of the damage and make a closer inspection, once they know exactly where to look, they find it!
Good luck!

 

[kini]

First off I have Klipsch towers and center channel along with a sw-115 sub. I wanted some more umph n depth, really just a better sub. I love Klipsch but their subs are...subpar. I was looking to get dual subs this time and relegate the sw-115 to the workout room. I was wondering if the SVS SB-3000 or SB4000 would be a good fit for my large basement (16x24) finished. I was also looking at the monoprice monolith Ultra 15's. Just want to make the right decision as its going to be a hit to the wallet I only want to do once and not have buyers remorse. This is basically for movies and occasional music. I have a Denon avr-6300, l/r-Klipsch RF-82ii and a RC-62 center. TV is an LG 86 inch nano series9. Any advice is appreciated!!

You're going to want to stay with ported. A pair of HSU VTF3Mk5s are the best bang for the buck by quite a margin. If you want the convenience of app control and the peace of mind that SVS gives you, a pair of PB3000s would also be great though quite a bit more expensive. Not sure how the new SVS 2000 pro series perform in comparison to the old version but I think Shady knows. Hint

As an aside, how do you like that TV? I'm looking at that set for this year's Xmas season. What did you have before?
Thanks

 

[hextall27]

The SW-115 sub is one of very, very few subs produced by an established mainstream manufacturer that is competitive (when discounted)! It certainly is not in the same league as the SVS 3000 series, but I am a little worried that you may be blaming room issues on the sub. What have you done to integrate the sub into the room?
Auddyssey XT32? Sub Crawl? REW plus miniDSP, etc? It sounds like you are ready to buy a sub anyway and want to put the SW-115 in your exercise room, so go ahead, but if your new sub isn't all you'd hoped it to be, you probably need to invest time and effort into better tuning the sub to your room! Unfortunately, a sub is an item where you can buy the very best and it can still suck because of your room (where the sub is located in the room) - just don't forget that the room is a big component for bass! If this turns out to be an issue, we can help you sort it out. Dual subs, like ShadyJ suggests are a good start at taming room related issues!

Since you mentioned the hit to your wallet, I thought I'd make some comments:
1) SVS is generally the most expensive of the ID subs. For that, you get the 45 day no-risk returns, generally better cosmetics (although I am not a fan of the curved metal grill), and truly excellent customer service (although the other companies have great CS). SVS also has the control app, which some love and others would rather have knobs.
2) Hsu is generally the value leader if you want maximum performance/dollar.
3) Given your timing, I would wait to see if there are any July 4th sales. Generally, none of these companies participate in sales with the exception of Outlaw Audio, so keep an eye on their website in particular! An Outlaw on sale usually beats everything else for value, but the virus puts a wild card on everything!
4) Keep an eye on B-stock. SVS in particular has a pretty high volume of B-stock items in their outlet and buyers have always (that I have read) been thrilled with the condition. For SVS, if there is a serious blemish, they will give it a major discount and describe the problem with pictures; however, their typical B-stock requires close inspection to find the issue. I think it is safe to say (from all I have read) you will not see anything under standard in-home lighting from 3 feet or farther. Many say there is no damage, but if they go back to look at SVS's photo of the damage and make a closer inspection, once they know exactly where to look, they find it!
Good luck!

Thanks for taking the time to get deep into it. I used the Auddessey room Correction and it truly rattles the house. It just seems like it isn’t really clear. Almost a muddy bass sound if that makes sense

I’m in no hurry, ive been off work for 15 months and will be off another year so I have plenty of time to find exactly what I want. I was just looking for ideas. I have no issue grabbing b stock or blemished anything as long as it isn’t trashed!! I’m just looking at the dual option as being a better sound

 

[hextall27]

You're going to want to stay with ported. A pair of HSU VTF3Mk5s are the best bang for the buck by quite a margin. If you want the convenience of app control and the peace of mind that SVS gives you, a pair of PB3000s would also be great though quite a bit more expensive. Not sure how the new SVS 2000 pro series perform in comparison to the old version but I think Shady knows. Hint

As an aside, how do you like that TV? I'm looking at that set for this year's Xmas season. What did you have before?
Thanks

I haven’t really looked into the Hsu’s. I’ll have to go do some research. I did begin to research the outlaw audios that Shady suggested. I was really impressed with the Ultra 12’s having 350 watts and hitting so low bass wise. I also looked at the 13’s and would grab a pair if there was a killer sale
The tv kicks butt. Super crisp, the colors really pop when watching 4K movies. No motion blur when watching any sports or fast paced scenes. Really like it. I have a Sony xbr65 that’s upstairs now

 

[hextall27]

If this is going to be a one-time purchase, I would go for two subs that attain a certain performance level instead of one big sub. What I would be looking for is a flat response down to at least 20 Hz. I would be looking at ported subwoofers, not sealed ones. Look at a pair of SVS 2000 subs or Hsu VTF-2 mk5s. Maybe a pair of Outlaw Audio Ultra-X12s.

I liked what I saw and read on the Ultra 12's, then I made the mistake of looking at the 13's..(wow). The SVS are sweet, and I liked the pb-3000, the app seems to make it simple. Might check out the b stock of a pair of those!!

 

[KEW]

Thanks for taking the time to get deep into it. I used the Auddessey room Correction and it truly rattles the house. It just seems like it isn’t really clear. Almost a muddy bass sound if that makes sense

Okay, if you were talking about a lack of really deep bass when the alien ship lands, I would say you need a new sub, but for muddy sound that is very likely room effects messing with your bass!
I assume you have read this review by Brent Butterworth:

Klipsch R-115SW Subwoofer Reviewed - HomeTheaterReview

Brent Butterworth reviews Klipsch's $899 R-115SW subwoofer, a ported design that uses a 15-inch Cerametallic driver and an 800-watt Class D amplifier.

hometheaterreview.com

Here is a relevant quote from that article:

In fact, if I had to sum up its sound in one word, I'd say "tight." In fact, I expected I'd do most of my listening to the R-115SW with movie soundtracks, but I spent the most time listening to jazz bassists, whose playing can turn into mush when fed through a mediocre subwoofer.

It is an unfortunate truth that reviews declaring this or that gear as amazing are "dime a dozen", but IME, Brent is of a different class. For starters, he takes measurements when he reviews a sub, but more importantly, he is a pretty good bass player in a Jazz Quartet, so is intimately familiar with what bass should sound like.
Here is a piece he wrote and performed. My understanding is they mixed this together since the virus prevents them playing in the same room.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=723567461745534

So here is what I would suggest for you:
1) Switch your AVR to direct or pure direct. Find a piece of music that you experience as being muddy and listen to it to refresh you memory of how bad it is and the specific places where the muddiness is obvious. You may even want to write down the time of the offenses.
2) Move the sub out into the middle of the room; say, at least 4 feet from the nearest wall. For the purpose of this test (this is a "quick and dirty" test) I would not worry about re-running setup.
3) Keep the AVR in direct mode and listen to those same places and see if you have the same "muddy" experience as you had before.
4) If you did not hear a big difference, move the sub 2' in any direction (except towards the walls) and listen again.
I suspect you will experience a different behavior. There may still be problems, but they won't be the same problems. This is a poor approach, as it is simply "trial and error", but I suspect it will be enough to demonstrate that your room is a major reason for your issues. Also, whatever effort you spend improving your sound with the Klipsch sub is almost certain to have a similar pay-off with any new sub you get. Buying dual subs will certainly improve, but it is important to get an understanding of these effects so you can better address them.
If moving your sub around is difficult (especially if on carpet), these are handy and make it easy to slide:

Scotch Reusable Sliders

Read reviews and buy Scotch Reusable Sliders at Target. Choose from contactless Same Day Delivery, Drive Up and more.

www.target.com

I’m in no hurry, ive been off work for 15 months and will be off another year so I have plenty of time to find exactly what I want. I was just looking for ideas. I have no issue grabbing b stock or blemished anything as long as it isn’t trashed!! I’m just looking at the dual option as being a better sound

You might want to do a little research to understand what is happening (but we are always willing to help you tune things).
Here is a nice article that will help you understand what happens with bass in a room and a video on one of the ways to optimize location of your sub.

The Schroeder Frequency: A Show and Tell, Part 1

Even if you live in a studio apartment, you have at least two listening rooms. Well, in a sense. Every listening room is, in essence, two listening rooms when you look at it from the perspective of sound.To midrange and treble frequencies, your listening room is like a billiards table. Like...

www.soundandvision.com

And here is a nice video on the "sub crawl":

HTH!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I liked what I saw and read on the Ultra 12's, then I made the mistake of looking at the 13's..(wow). The SVS are sweet, and I liked the pb-3000, the app seems to make it simple. Might check out the b stock of a pair of those!!

Yeah, the pb3k is a great sub. I think you’ll be happy with a move. The SVS will be more linear with better extension, and if you DO go with a pair, buckle up!

 

[ryanosaur]

Nice thread... So much to unpack here.

I like the idea of doing the Sub Crawl! This helped me out tremendously, as the Common placements you see recommended do not work well in my room. Bill and I have discussed this often! It is important to understand that every room will behave differently. The Sub Crawl, though crude, can teach you a lot about low frequency soundwaves and how they behave in your room.

As for Sub recommendations, I concur with most of the suggestions made thus far.

For myself, I use two X-13s in a room about 2000'3, and they are wonderful. Sales on those happen around Black Friday/X-Mas. I bought mine for $1K, ea, shipped. Zero regrets or remorse. I'm a trained musician and find they perform admirably.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yes indeed, my friend ryan and I have covered this a few times lol. I always value his thoughts and experience. Our two main rooms couldn’t be more different, and the ways in which we’ve achieved good bass are equally different. That’s what’s relevant here.
I agree with him on the crawl, and also recommend it! I also agree with many of kurts points, but I still think the SVS will be less “muddy”. Better linearity, better extension and less distortion.
FWIW, Rythmik and HSU imo will be better than the Klipsch as well, for less than the SVS but lack app control so...

 

[hextall27]

Okay, if you were talking about a lack of really deep bass when the alien ship lands, I would say you need a new sub, but for muddy sound that is very likely room effects messing with your bass!
I assume you have read this review by Brent Butterworth:

Klipsch R-115SW Subwoofer Reviewed - HomeTheaterReview

Brent Butterworth reviews Klipsch's $899 R-115SW subwoofer, a ported design that uses a 15-inch Cerametallic driver and an 800-watt Class D amplifier.

hometheaterreview.com

Here is a relevant quote from that article:

It is an unfortunate truth that reviews declaring this or that gear as amazing are "dime a dozen", but IME, Brent is of a different class. For starters, he takes measurements when he reviews a sub, but more importantly, he is a pretty good bass player in a Jazz Quartet, so is intimately familiar with what bass should sound like.
Here is a piece he wrote and performed. My understanding is they mixed this together since the virus prevents them playing in the same room.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=723567461745534

So here is what I would suggest for you:
1) Switch your AVR to direct or pure direct. Find a piece of music that you experience as being muddy and listen to it to refresh you memory of how bad it is and the specific places where the muddiness is obvious. You may even want to write down the time of the offenses.
2) Move the sub out into the middle of the room; say, at least 4 feet from the nearest wall. For the purpose of this test (this is a "quick and dirty" test) I would not worry about re-running setup.
3) Keep the AVR in direct mode and listen to those same places and see if you have the same "muddy" experience as you had before.
4) If you did not hear a big difference, move the sub 2' in any direction (except towards the walls) and listen again.
I suspect you will experience a different behavior. There may still be problems, but they won't be the same problems. This is a poor approach, as it is simply "trial and error", but I suspect it will be enough to demonstrate that your room is a major reason for your issues. Also, whatever effort you spend improving your sound with the Klipsch sub is almost certain to have a similar pay-off with any new sub you get. Buying dual subs will certainly improve, but it is important to get an understanding of these effects so you can better address them.
If moving your sub around is difficult (especially if on carpet), these are handy and make it easy to slide:

Scotch Reusable Sliders

Read reviews and buy Scotch Reusable Sliders at Target. Choose from contactless Same Day Delivery, Drive Up and more.

www.target.com

You might want to do a little research to understand what is happening (but we are always willing to help you tune things).
Here is a nice article that will help you understand what happens with bass in a room and a video on one of the ways to optimize location of your sub.

The Schroeder Frequency: A Show and Tell, Part 1

Even if you live in a studio apartment, you have at least two listening rooms. Well, in a sense. Every listening room is, in essence, two listening rooms when you look at it from the perspective of sound.To midrange and treble frequencies, your listening room is like a billiards table. Like...

www.soundandvision.com

And here is a nice video on the "sub crawl":

HTH!

Thank you much for the info. I will try that option!!

 

[hextall27]

Yeah, the pb3k is a great sub. I think you’ll be happy with a move. The SVS will be more linear with better extension, and if you DO go with a pair, buckle up!

Giddy Up

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Giddy Up

Make sure to post pics. Lol

 

[Pogre]

Dual subs!

I'm torn with that Klipsch sub. I think a 2nd one would probably yield some nice results for you. It's not a terrible sub, but there are better out there. Me being me I'd try and find a way to get 2 new subs. Either SVS or HSU. HSUs VTF-3 MK5s are really hard to beat, bang for buck and it's quality bass with good extension too. Great mid bass with the EQ2 setting.

 

[Pogre]

Okay, if you were talking about a lack of really deep bass when the alien ship lands, I would say you need a new sub, but for muddy sound that is very likely room effects messing with your bass!

I also really agree with Kew here. Room effects can get really ugly and finding a good spot for your sub can sometimes be the single biggest problem for some folks. It takes time and experimentation to figure out what works best in your room. I'm still finding better solutions years later.

 

[hextall27]

I also really agree with Kew here. Room effects can get really ugly and finding a good spot for your sub can sometimes be the single biggest problem for some folks. It takes time and experimentation to figure out what works best in your room. I'm still finding better solutions years later.

I'm thinking duals would eliminate many problems....mostly the room esthetics

 

[hextall27]

Dual subs!

I'm torn with that Klipsch sub. I think a 2nd one would probably yield some nice results for you. It's not a terrible sub, but there are better out there. Me being me I'd try and find a way to get 2 new subs. Either SVS or HSU. HSUs VTF-3 MK5s are really hard to beat, bang for buck and it's quality bass with good extension too. Great mid bass with the EQ2 setting.

I'm sure a second Klipsch would help, but then I might be kick myself later on for spending another $7-800 on that instead of taking the hit and getting better dual subs that I most likely wouldn't replace for many many years if ever

 

[hextall27]

Stupid question....My denon avr-x6400h I think is a decent receiver, but doesn't have THX as a setting, should I avoid Monoprice or the Outlaw Audio Ultras with THX or is that just something I would need to fiddle with the get the best results. Forgive my ignorance with audio questions, as I have almost no clue

 

[ryanosaur]

Stupid question....My denon avr-x6400h I think is a decent receiver, but doesn't have THX as a setting, should I avoid Monoprice or the Outlaw Audio Ultras with THX or is that just something I would need to fiddle with the get the best results. Forgive my ignorance with audio questions, as I have almost no clue

No. The subs will perform according to the THX specifications for the subs when used according to their parameters. Just because the AVR doesn't perform to those same specs is immaterial.
The Outlaw and Monolith subs all seem to be very good product, as best I can tell (with my experience only really being with the X-13s).

I'm sure a second Klipsch would help, but then I might be kick myself later on for spending another $7-800 on that instead of taking the hit and getting better dual subs that I most likely wouldn't replace for many many years if ever

The soooner you move beyond the Klipsch Subs, the better. Don't double down on that. Rather invest in the better sub now, use the Klipsch as a second sub for the short term and when you can double down on the second matching sub, pull the trigger and kick the Klipsch into a bedroom setup or sell it!