Outlaw 5000 vs Crown XLS 1002 vs Monolith 5X

[lovinthehd]

Not sure about the SPL from the top of my head, but in my Denon I normally set to 15-17db bellow reference.

My room has a very weird shape, it's about 11x16 but it doesn't have a "left wall", it's open to the corridor, and the ceiling is a cathedral style (hate that).

Also, because of decoration (no way I can change that unless I want my wife to kill me) the front stage (LCR) is about 10ft from the center seat while the surrounds are just about 5ft.

That would indicate that for movies (how your avr calibration is based) your average spl is about 70-72 dB with 90-92 dB peaks, and considering the distance, you're using something like 20 wpc for your peaks. I'd say you're probably just fine without the external amp, altho taking some load off could be a benefit in the long run; I'd suggest saving up and maybe improving on the speakers sometime down the line instead. I don't think it's that you're missing much with the avr alone except maybe if you really want to turn things up for demos or something....

 

[PENG]

I am more interested in the difference between those three power amps, not necessary aiming towards the Monolith. To be honest, I am more towards the Outlaw 5000 since it is far cheaper.

The difference between the Monolith 200WX5, and the Outlaw 5000 are, practically speaking, their power outputs. The Monolith should give you about 1.5 dB more. The Crown XLS 1002 would be the most powerful one based on specs, but would have the highest distortions. Aside from rated output, the XLS 1002 would be downgrade compared to the Denon's internal amps but whether the difference is audible or not could be a different story.

The FS52s are rated 130 W maximum, so the Outlaw 5000 seems like a very good match for them. It is a little more powerful than the Denon AVR but based on the measurements at AH and ASR, I would use the Denon for the FL, FR, SL, SR. If you are going use the Outlaw for the main 5 channels, then be sure to set the Denon FL/FR to pre-out. That's the only way to have the internal amps (only the FL/FR) disconnected so the Outlaw can get the cleanest signal, though with your speakers it should make little to no difference in terms of sound quality, because they are rated only 130 W maximum.

In that room, if you listen to 5 to 10 dB below reference you would be fine with or without the help of an external amp, otherwise the speakers will become your first weak link.

 

[NINaudio]

Sorry, 85F (Fahrenheit). I can set to anything actually, it is just set like that so it does't spin to loud during a movie. Right now it is showing 74F, which is correct (my normal room temp).

This tells me that it isn't getting too hot and you should be just fine. Like others have mentioned, you'd be better served saving that money and putting it towards better speakers. (this is almost always the case)

 

[bsas]

The difference between the Monolith 200WX5, and the Outlaw 5000 are, practically speaking, their power outputs. The Monolith should give you about 1.5 dB more. The Crown XLS 1002 would be the most powerful one based on specs, but would have the highest distortions. Aside from rated output, the XLS 1002 would be downgrade compared to the Denon's internal amps but whether the difference is audible or not could be a different story.

The FS52s are rated 130 W maximum, so the Outlaw 5000 seems like a very good match for them. It is a little more powerful than the Denon AVR but based on the measurements at AH and ASR, I would use the Denon for the FL, FR, SL, SR. If you are going use the Outlaw for the main 5 channels, then be sure to set the Denon FL/FR to pre-out. That's the only way to have the internal amps (only the FL/FR) disconnected so the Outlaw can get the cleanest signal, though with your speakers it should make little to no difference in terms of sound quality, because they are rated only 130 W maximum.

In that room, if you listen to 5 to 10 dB below reference you would be fine with or without the help of an external amp, otherwise the speakers will become your first weak link.

Wow, thanks a lot for the comprehensive analysis PENG!

 

[bsas]

This tells me that it isn't getting too hot and you should be just fine. Like others have mentioned, you'd be better served saving that money and putting it towards better speakers. (this is almost always the case)

Yea. I think it probably doesn't make sense for me like everyone else is saying. It was just a FOMO issue I think, thanks!

 

[RussS]

I added a Outlaw 5000 in a similar situation (Marantz receiver), and in my system it sounded better. My speakers are 4 ohms which may have an impact. Worth the money to find out in my opinion. If you look at the prices on a used 5000 you won't lose much if you resell it.

 

[Pogre]

I added a Outlaw 5000 in a similar situation (Marantz receiver), and in my system it sounded better. My speakers are 4 ohms which may have an impact. Worth the money to find out in my opinion. If you look at the prices on a used 5000 you won't lose much if you resell it.

Better how? Did you A/B between them, level match with a dB meter and defeat any processing or is this your subjective sighted (and biased) opinion? I don't believe a person would would be able to tell the difference in a proper DBT, operated within limits and removing as much bias as possible. Real, proper comparisons like that are a pita to set up and most folks don't do it.

Most decent receivers should be okay with 4 ohm speakers. Unless they dip way below that, have crazy phase angles and/or you sit pretty far from them and listen really loud. I could see it running hotter, but a fan is good for that. If the receiver isn't clipping or being over driven there shouldn't be much difference, if any, in sq.

 

[PENG]

I added a Outlaw 5000 in a similar situation (Marantz receiver), and in my system it sounded better. My speakers are 4 ohms which may have an impact. Worth the money to find out in my opinion. If you look at the prices on a used 5000 you won't lose much if you resell it.

What is yours rated for,? His front mains are rated only 130 W maximum.

The difference in measured output between the 5000 and X3300W does not appear to be significant, only about 1.8 to 2 dB or 2.5 dB under the 5 channel driven condition. The OP sits about 12 ft from the FL/FR and only 5 ft from the surrounds. The X3600H is more powerful than the X3300W, but was measured by ASR so it is better to use the X3300W's numbers, just to be on the conservative side, and then also both units were measured by Gene of AH.

Outlaw 5000

# of CH	Test Type	Power	Load	THD + N
2	CFP-BW	170 watts	8 ohms	0.1%
2	CFP-BW	230 watts	4 ohms	0.1%

5

1kHz Psweep

139 watts

8 ohms

0.1%

5	Dynamic PWR	212 watts	8 ohms	1%
2	Dynamic PWR	230 watts	8 ohms	1%

2

Dynamic PWR

390 watts

4 ohms

1%

Denon AVR-X3300W

# of CH	Test Type	Power	Load	THD + N
2	CFP-BW	*105 watts	8-ohms	0.1%
2	CFP-BW	154 watts	4-ohms	0.1%

5

1kHz Psweep

76.4 watts

8-ohms

0.1%

2	Dynamic PWR	277 watts	4-ohms	1%
5	Dynamic PWR	145 watts	8-ohms	1%

 

[Pogre]

Yea. I think it probably doesn't make sense for me like everyone else is saying. It was just a FOMO issue I think, thanks!

I'd be tempted to suggest some bigger subs. I think you have the space for it but I see you're using them nearfield. I'll bet it's pretty sweet when you're on the couch!

 

[RussS]

Better how? Did you A/B between them, level match with a dB meter and defeat any processing or is this your subjective sighted (and biased) opinion? I don't believe a person would would be able to tell the difference in a proper DBT, operated within limits and removing as much bias as possible. Real, proper comparisons like that are a pita to set up and most folks don't do it.

Most decent receivers should be okay with 4 ohm speakers. Unless they dip way below that, have crazy phase angles and/or you sit pretty far from them and listen really loud. I could see it running hotter, but a fan is good for that. If the receiver isn't clipping or being over driven there shouldn't be much difference, if any, in sq.

Better to me. No science. Over the past 45 years have had many amplifiers and to me they can sound different/better in different systems.

 

[Pogre]

Better to me. No science. Over the past 45 years have had many amplifiers and to me they can sound different/better in different systems.

So a subjective sighted opinion then? That's all I was wanting to know. End of the day if it sounds better to you that's all that counts.

 

[RussS]

So a subjective sighted opinion then? That's all I was wanting to know. End of the day if it sounds better to you that's all that counts.

Hi end audio is an industry built on subjective evaluations. The fact that they are subjective doesn't mean they aren't real.
If it all sounded the same you wouldn't need hundreds of companies world wide making stuff.
Or it does all sound the same and millions of people are just fooled.
Wine tasting is subjective, but that industry too survives in spite of that subjectivity.

 

[lovinthehd]

Better to me. No science. Over the past 45 years have had many amplifiers and to me they can sound different/better in different systems.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi end audio is an industry built on subjective evaluations. The fact that they are subjective doesn't mean they aren't real.
If it all sounded the same you wouldn't need hundreds of companies world wide making stuff.
Or it does all sound the same and millions of people are just fooled.
Wine tasting is subjective, but that industry too survives in spite of that subjectivity.

High end audio is rife with bullshit. Look at all the silly reviews of such, and some of the insane products like silly cables they push as being just as real as an actual amp or pre-amp. Not much to go on there. Many are definitely fooled, thus the term audiophools. Wine tasting is rife with the same issues. That the same descriptors are used in audio and wine is telling....

 

[RussS]

The fooling comes in when you believe that more expensive is always better. My wife can tell me when something sounds better from 3 rooms away. Good thing because then I'm off the hook for my latest investment.

 

[PENG]

Hi end audio is an industry built on subjective evaluations. The fact that they are subjective doesn't mean they aren't real.
If it all sounded the same you wouldn't need hundreds of companies world wide making stuff.

But they would all strive to made them to sound transparent, accurate. Ask them, and I am sure they will tell you just that.

 

[Pogre]

The fooling comes in when you believe that more expensive is always better. My wife can tell me when something sounds better from 3 rooms away. Good thing because then I'm off the hook for my latest investment.

The old "my wife can even hear the difference (tho usually it's 'night and day')" isn't new but the "from 3 rooms away" part is. From 3 rooms away is even more problematic than sighted comparisons.

The fooling comes when you're influenced by expectation bias and placebo. You brought up wine tasting... actually you brought up like 4 of the top 5 arguments most subjectivists use, lol. Here's an interesting article for you.

Wine-tasting: it's junk science

Noses have been put out of joint in the wine industry, with experiments showing that even experts can't always tell cheap plonk from grand cru. David Derbyshire reports on the chemistry behind the taste

www.theguardian.com

I believe you when you say you can hear a difference. The placebo effect is very real, testable and everyone is susceptible to it. I try to do my best to minimize my biases when offering advice, doing comparisons or making expensive decisions tho... I really believe you might be surprised if you participated in a DBT and did a proper comparison.

More often than not when folks come here seeking improvements they end up finding it with better speakers or subwoofage. If you have sufficient power more or different amplification is a lateral move of very little (if any) significance.

 

[RussS]

The old "my wife can even hear the difference (tho usually it's 'night and day')" isn't new but the "from 3 rooms away" part is. From 3 rooms away is even more problematic than sighted comparisons.

The fooling comes when you're influenced by expectation bias and placebo. You brought up wine tasting... actually you brought up like 4 of the top 5 arguments most subjectivists use, lol. Here's an interesting article for you.

Wine-tasting: it's junk science

Noses have been put out of joint in the wine industry, with experiments showing that even experts can't always tell cheap plonk from grand cru. David Derbyshire reports on the chemistry behind the taste

www.theguardian.com

I believe you when you say you can hear a difference. The placebo effect is very real, testable and everyone is susceptible to it. I try to do my best to minimize my biases when offering advice, doing comparisons or making expensive decisions tho... I really believe you might be surprised if you participated in a DBT and did a proper comparison.

More often than not when folks come here seeking improvements they end up finding it with better speakers or subwoofage. If you have sufficient power more or different amplification is a lateral move of very little (if any) significance.

This subject has been debated in the audio press for 30+ years. The Audio Critic and Peter Aczel where always good reading on this. Personally I believe there is a difference, or I would be listening to music on my phone.
Just out of curiosity how did you evaluate your speakers which I believe are sold on line?
Where you able to AB compare these level matched with other speakers?

 

[Pogre]

This subject has been debated in the audio press for 30+ years. The Audio Critic and Peter Aczel where always good reading on this. Personally I believe there is a difference, or I would be listening to music on my phone.
Just out of curiosity how did you evaluate your speakers which I believe are sold on line?
Where you able to AB compare these level matched with other speakers?

I didn't do a hardcore AB testing because I didn't need to. The differences are not only audible, they're easily measurable differences within the limits of human hearing. I'm supremely confident I can tell the difference in a DBT between my DefTech books and Ultra towers... or a cell phone.

Why do you ask? Seems kind of irrelevant.

 

[RussS]

So all speakers that measure similarly sound the same?