The Audyssey MultEQ Editor app users thread (with facts and tips)

[shkumar4963]

I assume you meant using MultEQ Editor App, but not sure what you meant by "about 12 dB per octave slope...", can you explain a little more please?

What I mean is that when I try to move the curve in the MultEQ app, it seems I can only make shallow peaks and valleys. Sharp peaks or notches are not possible.

Maybe Ratbuddy will help.

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[Pogre]

What I mean is that when I try to move the curve in the MultEQ app, it seems I can only make shallow peaks and valleys. Sharp peaks or notches are not possible.

Maybe Ratbuddy will help.

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Ratbuddyssey. I haven't checked into yet, but it will allow you to make tighter adjustments.

 

[PENG]

What I mean is that when I try to move the curve in the MultEQ app, it seems I can only make shallow peaks and valleys. Sharp peaks or notches are not possible.

Maybe Ratbuddy will help.

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If you use the App on its own, you cannot draw the shape you want. If you use Ratbuddyssey, you can actually enter the value for each frequency point. Even then, big boost will likely mess things up except it may be fine as Jon AA mentioned earlier, depending on what kind of boost or cut Audyssey had already made to that frequency point. Big dips are generally fine, within reason.

 

[DJ7675]

The power of Audyssey is really interesting. I think an even bigger question is if using Audyssey above 500hz, how should it (if at all) to improve the sound in your room, and not just a frequency response graph. It seems that forcing a target curve, and correcting to that curve may create more issues that they solve. To me it seems the best chance of getting better sound is to correct the speaker itself and let the ”room curve” happen naturally. This is what I am interested in and sounds like what @Jon AA is describing. The problem with EQing at the higher frequencies I have had is even though I have a tilting downward curve it compares that with what Audyssey measured in the 9 point measurement And addd/boosts cuts based on that. In my case the 9 point measurement showed a significant drop in frequency response. As a result Audyssey actually boosted the 5k-10k region Instead of cutting that region. After measuring with REW (RTA MMM) it showed that boost when that isn’t what the target curve I made looked like at all. I guess the point is it will apply boost/cuts based on what Audyssey measures and if those measurements aren’t accurate it could do the opposite of what you want. My rule is to always to post measurements in REW to make sure what has been done.

 

[PENG]

This is what I am interested in and sounds like what @Jon AA is describing.

But he is in fact using Audyssey to EQ the higher frequencies above the room room transition frequency. I think he knows what he is doing. As he mentioned, Dr. Floyd did not say EQ'ing higher thant the RS freq is bad, he's just saying the data collected by the REQ systems were not reliable/could be bad. So if you are using the info from the REW measured response and let Audyssey creates filter for it, I don't see how it could get you worse results, if accuracy is what you want. If you are concerned about the so called "sound quality", then all bets are off, back to the subjective side again in that case.

 

[shkumar4963]

If you use the App on its own, you cannot draw the shape you want. If you use Ratbuddyssey, you can actually enter the value for each frequency point. Even then, a big boost will likely mess things up except it may be fine as Jon AA mentioned earlier, depending on what kind of boost or cut Audyssey had already made to that frequency point. Big dips are generally fine, within reason.

Currently, Audyssey is boosting about 10 dB around 200 Hz which is creating problems with my speaker. It is bottoming out there at high volumes. So i want to figure out how I can edit my desired curve to get rid of that boost.

See the 2nd Audyssey correction curve (right front speaker). below.

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[DJ7675]

But he is in fact using Audyssey to EQ the higher frequencies above the room room transition frequency. I think he knows what he is doing. As he mentioned, Dr. Floyd did not say EQ'ing higher thant the RS freq is bad, he's just saying the data collected by the REQ systems were not reliable/could be bad. So if you are using the info from the REW measured response and let Audyssey creates filter for it, I don't see how it could get you worse results, if accuracy is what you want. If you are concerned about the so called "sound quality", then all bets are off, back to the subjective side again in that case.

Not at expert on this at all, but am interested for sure in the possibility of using audyssey differently if it results in better sound. You are correct, that Toole does not say EQing at higher frequency is bad necessarily. I think he is saying that only speaker resonances should be fixed. These are the dips and peaks that are found in all of the spinorama type of measurements. Other humps/dips should not be have EQ because direct sound and reflected sound will be different. In order to know this level of detail, we will need speaker measurements.
My other point was my Audyssey measurements generally track my REW measurements but at higher frequencies they seem to different quite a bit. I of course trust REW with MMM measurements with a calibrated mic much more than Audyssey. If your original measurements aren’t accurate at high frequency, don’t blindly trust Audyssey calibration at the hithere frequencies. Be sure to do a post measurement to verify what it did. In my case I was trying to have a downward sloping curve and it tilted it up from 5-10k due to the inaccurate initial measurement of Audyssey.

 

[KEW]

Currently, Audyssey is boosting around 200 Hz that is creating problems with my speaker. It is bottoming out at high volumes. So want to figure out how I can edit my desired curve to get rid of that.

See the 2nd Audyssey correction curve (right front speaker). below.

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I am not one to be able to help you!
However, that is one very interesting correction curve!
What speakers are you using?
Are you using a sub? I gather you also run the mains full range?
If you have the room, I might try moving the mains out of the corners or away from the walls to reduce room gain! That is a lot of reduction at the lower frequencies - it looks like about 17dB reduction on both sides.
I have no idea if there is truth to this, but as a general rule, I believe you are better off if you can eliminate the biggest issues before Audyssey and in my "fuzzy logic" on this, the extreme reduction below 200Hz might be influencing the 5-6dB increase at 200Hz. Normally, I would not expect a 5-6dB increase at 200Hz to bottom out your speaker!
How do you know it is 200Hz where your speakers bottom out?

 

[PENG]

Not at expert on this at all, but am interested for sure in the possibility of using audyssey differently if it results in better sound. You are correct, that Toole does not say EQing at higher frequency is bad necessarily. I think he is saying that only speaker resonances should be fixed. These are the dips and peaks that are found in all of the spinorama type of measurements. Other humps/dips should not be have EQ because direct sound and reflected sound will be different. In order to know this level of detail, we will need speaker measurements.
My other point was my Audyssey measurements generally track my REW measurements but at higher frequencies they seem to different quite a bit. I of course trust REW with MMM measurements with a calibrated mic much more than Audyssey. If your original measurements aren’t accurate at high frequency, don’t blindly trust Audyssey calibration at the hithere frequencies. Be sure to do a post measurement to verify what it did. In my case I was trying to have a downward sloping curve and it tilted it up from 5-10k due to the inaccurate initial measurement of Audyssey.View attachment 36411

I think Floyd is right in saying it the way he did. He knows if people play around with the higher frequencies without knowing enough to not get into trouble then they would more likely make things worse.

 

[PENG]

Currently, Audyssey is boosting about 10 dB around 200 Hz which is creating problems with my speaker. It is bottoming out there at high volumes. So i want to figure out how I can edit my desired curve to get rid of that boost.

See the 2nd Audyssey correction curve (right front speaker). below.

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In post#1, I listed the boost and cut limits:

- In AVR systems, the filters are set to +9 dB max boost and +20 dB max cut.

9 dB can of course be not very friendly to to the mid woofers/woofers of many speakers at even moderately loud volume if you sit a few meters from the speakers.

On your graphs, I don't see any 10 dB boost though, it looks like there is a slightly higher than 5 dB boost at just below 200 Hz. That can still cause the driver to bottom if you crank things up too much, but again, it always depend on how loud you listen to and how far you sit, obviously how much can the driver take.

If you have the Editor App, you can definitely do something about the boosts. Without it, it would be tough to find a good way.

 

[shkumar4963]

I am not one to be able to help you!
However, that is one very interesting correction curve!
What speakers are you using?
Are you using a sub? I gather you also run the mains full range?
If you have the room, I might try moving the mains out of the corners or away from the walls to reduce room gain! That is a lot of reduction at the lower frequencies - it looks like about 17dB reduction on both sides.
I have no idea if there is truth to this, but as a general rule, I believe you are better off if you can eliminate the biggest issues before Audyssey and in my "fuzzy logic" on this, the extreme reduction below 200Hz might be influencing the 5-6dB increase at 200Hz. Normally, I would not expect a 5-6dB increase at 200Hz to bottom out your speaker!
How do you know it is 200Hz where your speakers bottom out?

I thought the cut below 100 Hz was due to bass management. I use ls50 which is plugged with a bung so no inherent output below 100 Hz should be.

Now, how do I know that the bottoming out is due to this boost at 200 Hz? I don't. But the bottoming out is only on the right speaker and it goes away if I exclude L/R from Audyssey correction.

I was hoping that I can edit the desired curve sufficient enough to get rid of this boost.

Is there any other way to get rid of this boost? Other than this, Audyssey does improve sound quality substantially.

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[KEW]

I thought the cut below 100 Hz was due to bass management. I use ls50 which is plugged with a bung so no inherent output below 100 Hz should be.

Now, how do I know that the bottoming out is due to this boost at 200 Hz? I don't. But the bottoming out is only on the right speaker and it goes away if I exclude L/R from Audyssey correction.

I was hoping that I can edit the desired curve sufficient enough to get rid of this boost.

Is there any other way to get rid of this boost? Other than this, Audyssey does improve sound quality substantially.

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You are probably right about the cut being bass management!
Where did you put your crossover?
With the 5-1/4" woofer, I could see it bottoming out if you play it loud and low.
How far away from the speakers are you (as this directly influences how loud you would play them)?
I think @PENG found that crossing the LS50 at 100 or 110Hz worked best for him, I don't know if he can add much or not, he probably remembered that you are using LS50's (I didn't)! Maybe he has at one point found a similar limit.

 

[PENG]

You are probably right about the cut being bass management!
Where did you put your crossover?
With the 5-1/4" woofer, I could see it bottoming out if you play it loud and low.
How far away from the speakers are you (as this directly influences how loud you would play them)?
I think @PENG found that crossing the LS50 at 100 or 110Hz worked best for him, I don't know if he can add much or not, he probably remembered that you are using LS50's (I didn't)! Maybe he has at one point found a similar limit.

I never listening to any more than 80 dB average. Most of the time it would be between about 68 to 75 dB average at the most with the amp (any of my amps or receivers) outputting less than half a watt peaking to no more than 25 W or so. So I have never experienced any bottoming whether I have Audyssey or Dirac Live in use.

 

[shkumar4963]

I never listening to any more than 80 dB average. Most of the time it would be between about 68 to 75 dB average at the most with the amp (any of my amps or receivers) outputting less than half a watt peaking to no more than 25 W or so. So I have never experienced any bottoming whether I have Audyssey or Dirac Live in use.

I also don't hear these speakers very loud and with most music, there is no bottoming out.

But with some music at moderate volumes in some passages the right speaker does bottom out.

Besides, it is just bugging that Audyssey is boosting 6 dB at 200 Hz in just one speaker and that limits my ability to play these speakers.

So I am looking for some easy way to tell Audyssey not to boost.

Other than this Audyssey does improve the sound quality.

Here is what I tried so far with less than perfect results.

1. Exclude Audyssey from L/R
2. Limit front speakers Audyssey correction to 110 Hz
3. Put an additional slope of 12 dB per octave on the front speaker desired Audyssey curve at 100 Hz. (Start of the slope at 180 Hz to -24 dB at 50 Hz). Crossover set in Audyssey at 100 Hz.

Correction: it seems that the max slope in MultEQ could be 6 dB per octave. (180 hz 0 dB, 50 Hz min -11 dB.)

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[PENG]

I also don't hear these speakers very loud and with most music, there is no bottoming out.

But with some music at moderate volumes in some passages the right speaker does bottom out.

Besides, it is just bugging that Audyssey is boosting 6 dB at 200 Hz in just one speaker and that limits my ability to play these speakers.

So I am looking for some easy way to tell Audyssey not to boost.

Other than this Audyssey does improve the sound quality.

Here is what I tried so far with less than perfect results.

1. Exclude Audyssey from L/R
2. Limit front speakers Audyssey correction to 110 Hz
3. Put an additional slope of 12 dB per octave on the front speaker desired Audyasey curve at 100 Hz. (Start of the slope at 180 Hz to -24 dB at 50 Hz). Crossover set in Audyssey at 100 Hz.

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Why not just bite the bullet and buy the App? It's $20 but it will solve your problem, or should..

 

[shkumar4963]

Why not just bite the bullet and buy the App? It's $20 but it will solve your problem, or should..

I do have the app.

And all this discussion has been with the MultEQ app.



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[PENG]

I do have the app.

And all this discussion has been with the MultEQ app.



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I thought so in the beginning but then you said you cannot do that cut at 200 Hz so then I assume you didn't have the App and have been asking if there's other way than using the App.

Since you have the App then you can either try to draw the new target for the speaker that has the 6 dB boost with a 6 dB cut or download Ratbuddyssey (don't know if you have done so yet), then you an just punch in the -6 dB, end of story.

I am curious to know if you have already tried swapping the right and left speakers just to be sure it isn't a driver problem. If you need help using Ratbuddyssey, let me know and I an post a screen shot.

 

[shkumar4963]

I thought so in the beginning but then you said you cannot do that cut at 200 Hz so then I assume you didn't have the App and have been asking if there's other way than using the App.

Since you have the App then you can either try to draw the new target for the speaker that has the 6 dB boost with a 6 dB cut or download Ratbuddyssey (don't know if you have done so yet), then you an just punch in the -6 dB, end of story.

I am curious to know if you have already tried swapping the right and left speakers just to be sure it isn't a driver problem. If you need help using Ratbuddyssey, let me know and I an post a screen shot.

I thought that there was some limitation in MultEQ. It is so hard to communicate that limitation. I will download Ratbuddy.

Is there a readne file that I can use to install and use the software?

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[PENG]

Be sure to do a post measurement to verify what it did. In my case I was trying to have a downward sloping curve and it tilted it up from 5-10k due to the inaccurate initial measurement of Audyssey.View attachment 36411

I am quite sure I have read most of what Dr. Floyd wrote that are publicly available for free viewing or download. So I do know about the issues that you brought up, but thanks for bringing it up anyway. I thought I had emphasized right from start that the Editor App needs to be used in conjunction with REW or similar so the user won't be EQ'ing blindly. So I guess I am a little confused, as I don't even know what we are disagreeing on, if anything..

The chart you attached looked familiar, but the link to your opinion does not work, please post one that works if you don't mind.

 

[DJ7675]

I am quite sure I have read most of what Dr. Floyd wrote that are publicly available for free viewing or download. So I do know about the issues that you brought up, but thanks for bringing it up anyway. I thought I had emphasized right from start that the Editor App needs to be used in conjunction with REW or similar so the user won't be EQ'ing blindly. So I guess I am a little confused, as I don't even know what we are disagreeing on, if anything..

The chart you attached looked familiar, but the link to your opinion does not work, please post one that works if you don't mind.

Sorry if it came across as disagreeing. I don't think we are I just had a couple of points to add which you actually do already touch on...
1-Take in room measurements before and after audyssey. Make sure to either average several measurements in a similiar configuaration as your audyssey measurements, or even better in my opinion use the MMM (moving microphone method) of your listening position. A lot of those small variations at higher frequencies go away the more measurements you take.
2-Looking at speaker measurements and correcting the speakers using detailed measurements (such as from Harman, or Audiosciencereview) might be the best way to do correction. I'm not currently doing this, but this is what @Jon AA is talking about. According to tool as noted in the image, the series of bumps that are in all of the measurements are the ones that can be EQ'd.
3-And I just wanted to point out to compare your before measurements with what Audyssey measures. Audyssey will do boosts/cuts based on what the Audyssey measured (even if those measurements aren't accuate). I had a situation where Audyssey boosted high frequencies when I wanted Audyssey to cut. It did this because the origianal measuement didn't seem to be very accurate based on my MMM REW measurements. As you have already mentioned it is essential to measure what Audyssey has done.
Sorry if it sounded like I was disagreeing with you. Audyssey does exactly what you tell it to relative to what it is measures and is really great at it. I think people can fine tune their results for sure using what you have described.