KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Honestly if I had a patient even considering drinking, inhaling injecting bleach, or an industrial alcohol, I would e telling the family we needed the advice of a neuropsychologist, a psychiatrist and a neurologist, especially at the age of the POTUS.
Another aspect of this is he genuinely seems to believe he is brilliant as if no one else has ever thought of considering this possibility! He lives in a world where internal use of disinfectants is viable, but among all of the doctors (that see disinfectants used all over their workplace) it is "the genius of Trump" alone that would make that leap!
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Most all 5-year-old kids know that you won't live long if you drink Chlorox or Lysol. This ain't rocket science… you certainly don't need an advanced degree in medicine or biochemistry to get it.
Yeah, some kind of rocket anyway. I think you are dead wrong, with emphasis on the the dead thingy.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Another aspect of this is he genuinely seems to believe he is brilliant as if no one else has ever thought of considering this possibility! He lives in a world where internal use of disinfectants is viable, but among all of the doctors (that see disinfectants used all over their workplace) it is "the genius of Trump" alone that would make that leap!
The only doctors familiar with drinking or injecting Chlorox, Lysol, or isopropyl alcohol work at poison control centers, not the NIH, CDC, or FDA.

Apparently, Trump, or his proxy Jared Kushner, recently installed them at the Dept. of Homeland Security. Judging by the faces of the medical pros on the Coronavirus Response Team, I'd bet that not one of them knew that DHS guy would be at the press briefing. To me, they looked rudely surprised during that press briefing. It was a set-up staged for national TV and for future use in campaign film clips.
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
Another aspect of this is he genuinely seems to believe he is brilliant as if no one else has ever thought of considering this possibility! He lives in a world where internal use of disinfectants is viable, but among all of the doctors (that see disinfectants used all over their workplace) it is "the genius of Trump" alone that would make that leap!
But can he disinfect my debts?
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Another aspect of this is he genuinely seems to believe he is brilliant as if no one else has ever thought of considering this possibility! He lives in a world where internal use of disinfectants is viable, but among all of the doctors (that see disinfectants used all over their workplace) it is "the genius of Trump" alone that would make that leap!
true, the mere gesture of him pointing to his head(as if he was some kind of genius) when giving his 'Lysol' talk just further proves your point.

Shifting gears and in all seriousness, if Biden does in fact get elected he's inheriting a mess and one that I don't see him capable of cleaning up. I know TLS thinks Trumpy has Pick's disease, well I for one think Joe has the beginning of dementia as well.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
I am going to give you fair warning. One more post from you suggesting this infection is comparable to flu, will earn you my second ever dumb rating.

So if you want to see our party preserved then you need to join a chorus for this highly impaired mans prompt removal.
Wow, Doc. Take a break. Maybe a drink. I suggested "the mortality rate" could be comparable. In fact, I didn't even suggest it. I referred to 3 different studies from reputable sources that suggest it. Then I asked a question. I made no assertions or assumptions or claims. And I did not bring politics in.

Most of us here tend to like numbers, charts, graphs, comparisons and relationships. I simply pointed out THREE studies from highly regarded institutions, and asked what they mean. Reluctance to even discuss these numbers says a lot. The mention of numbers that do not appear to support a particular narrative are "dumb"? So USC and Stanford are "dumb". And Trump is "impaired"?

From some here, this is what I expect. An absolutely closed mind with no desire to understand. But I don't think that's you, Doc. So again, take a break. Get some sleep. Oh, and sorry... I won't be joining your chorus. And neither will over half the country.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
true, the mere gesture of him pointing to his head(as if he was some kind of genius) when giving his 'Lysol' talk just further proves your point.

Shifting gears and in all seriousness, if Biden does in fact get elected he's inheriting a mess and one that I don't see him capable of cleaning up. I know TLS thinks Trumpy has Pick's disease, well I for one think Joe has the beginning of dementia as well.
I know. I don't think Joe is quite as on the ball as he used to be, but frankly nor am I. I think it is premature to call dementia. But go to Pick's disease and it is Trump personified. Even White House aids have commented on his disinterest.

  • Apathy (indifference) or withdrawal
  • Severe depression in a person who has never been depressed before
  • Blunting or dullness of emotions
  • Loss of inhibition
  • Impulsive behavior in a usually cautious person
  • Bad manners, rudeness
  • Saying or doing inappropriate things in public
  • Impatience
  • Becoming extroverted, very talkative
  • Inappropriate joking
  • Aggressiveness
  • Restlessness or agitation
  • Poor judgment
  • Paranoia
  • Selfishness
  • Difficulty coping with changes from routine
  • Development of obsessive routines
  • Childlike behavior
  • Changes in sexual behavior
Other common symptoms in Pick disease include the following:
  • Speech problems: The person may have trouble finding the right word, may speak less, or may stop speaking altogether. His or her sentences may be incomplete or organized strangely. The person may lose the ability to understand written, spoken, or signed language.
  • Changes in eating habits: The person may begin overeating, eating greedily, eating excessive amounts of sweets, or drinking large amounts of alcohol. He or she may gain weight.
  • Poor attention: The person may have problems paying attention, concentrating, or carrying on a sustained conversation.
If you look at the change in Trump's speech over time that is particularly telling.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I believe (at least hope) I'm not that confused. He did state what you wrote but I also believe that his G.O.P. is not the current one.
These are literally the same people that were heading the GOP in the 1990s. Many of the same people were on the Clinton impeachment as were fighting the Trump impeachment.

Some of the big drivers of modern policy (Limbauigh, the Koch brothers) were the big drivers of policy 30 years ago as well.

And the Bush administration (the second one) was the same people (Rumsfeld, Cheney, etc) that go back to Nixon.

Yeah, keep hacking on that straw man :rolleyes:
Since I'm commenting on my own point, I'm not sure how that's possible; but perhaps if you'd add some correction in what I've misrepresented it would be helpful to realign on the track you believe I've diverged from.

Yep.[/quote]
 
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JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
The other complications this disease causes is it only in the severely hospitalized? Or is it across the board?
It's a question that begs the question. Regardless of the mechanics, the result is a much higher criticality and death rate.

Even if you imagine a scenerio where we simply killed everyone who needed to go to the ER (making bullets the cause of death for both flu and COVID-19); COVID-19 is sending (10x+) more to the hospital in the first place.

As far as the politics I don't even know what to ask on that I'm a Republican but if my option is Trump I may be forced to make to do something I've never done before and vote the other way
I'll tip my hat to those willing to not vote along party lines simply because they are party lines.

The parties were developed or evolved for the same reason as other branches of our government as a form of checks and balances correct
No. Parties in general develop to consoladte power and two-party systems are the inevitable result of winner-take-all election strategies.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I know. I don't think Joe is quite as on the ball as he used to be, but frankly nor am I.
Same here.

I'd rather see a different candidate have the nomination.

But Biden remains a better pick in every possible way than Trump.

OAC 2028 !
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Wow, Doc. Take a break. Maybe a drink. I suggested "the mortality rate" could be comparable. In fact, I didn't even suggest it. I referred to 3 different studies from reputable sources that suggest it. Then I asked a question. I made no assertions or assumptions or claims. And I did not bring politics in.

Most of us here tend to like numbers, charts, graphs, comparisons and relationships. I simply pointed out THREE studies from highly regarded institutions, and asked what they mean. Reluctance to even discuss these numbers says a lot. The mention of numbers that do not appear to support a particular narrative are "dumb"? So USC and Stanford are "dumb". And Trump is "impaired"?

From some here, this is what I expect. An absolutely closed mind with no desire to understand. But I don't think that's you, Doc. So again, take a break. Get some sleep. Oh, and sorry... I won't be joining your chorus. And neither will over half the country.
We are only just starting to get decent tests. The true mortality is yet unknown. The antibody tests are a particular problem as they cross react with other Coronavirus infections. A lot come from China, and the UK and other European countries have found them useless.

We will get better data from Minnesota. The U of M and Mayo Clinic have teamed up together and are certain they have highly validated tests. These will be rolled out and made here over the next three weeks in very large quantities. These apparently use no reagents in short supply. The Dean of the medical School and the head of Mayo laboratory services along with Mike Osterholm were with Governor Walz for a long presentation this week. There is no program like this in the US right now. It will cover the whole state. For now it is agreed this testing will be confined to Minnesota, although tests will be run from specimens sent from outside Minnesota and will be available at Mayo sites in Arizona and Jacksonville.

For now the important numbers are Hospital admission, ICU admissions and those needing invasive respiratory support, dialysis and ECMO. Also the mortality of that population. Also keeping track of the major complications I outlined above. In this regard this pandemic is nothing like an influenza epidemic.

In Minnesota there will be no lightening up until we have good guidance form the data that will come back from this extensive PCR and serology testing.

Minnesota has done well at keeping down the case incidence so far. However that likely will transfer into a lower herd immunity. This will require special care on the exit strategy. We have a chance to dodge some bullets here, if we are careful and can keep accurate data current.

The Governor did say he would help roll out this program in other states if results are good.

Lastly one of the big problems is that it is not known which antibodies are protective. An even bigger problem is that immunity to Coronaviruses in general is short lived. That is why traditional vaccine technology has not been successful in other Corona virus infections. That is why professor Sarah Gilbert is taking a new and novel approach.

One thing I am certain of is that until there is an effective vaccine and or treatment, then the whole world will remain disrupted to varying degrees. The translation of that is that things will not be back to normal for some time. So no large gatherings anytime soon.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Yes, that was my understanding. In order to test positive for the antibodies, you had to actually have the virus at some point. Maybe Doc can clarify.

If that's true, it means many, many more people have had the virus than the denominator currently being used. And that means many people with the virus have few or no symptoms. All that makes sense to me because up until now, the only people being tested were sick people with symptoms. So the reported mortality rate was really, "Of all the people sick with serious symptoms, X% die". Now we're learning, "Of all the people with the virus, Y% die". There's a difference, and it seems like a significant difference to me.
This just came from JAMA within the hour. It is from an integrated health system in California. This is part of the paper that is relevant to your question.

[Of 16 201 tests in adults, results from 1299 patients (8.0%) were positive for SARS-CoV-2. Of these patients, 377 (29.0%) were treated as inpatients and 113 (8.7%) were treated in the ICU.

The median age was 61.0 years (interquartile range, 50.0-73.0); 56.2% were men (Table). The most common comorbidity was hypertension (n = 164, 43.5%). Of 166 patients who underwent testing for influenza A/B or respiratory syncytial virus (44.0% of the cohort), none tested positive. Bilateral infiltrates on chest film were seen in 63.4% (n = 239). Overall, 34 patients (9.0%) received a prednisone-equivalent dosage of 20 mg/d or more.

Most patients were treated on the general ward or intermediate care unit (n = 264, 70.0%); of whom 54.9% received supplemental oxygen through nasal cannula/face mask. A total of 113 inpatients (30.0%) required ICU admission and 110 (29.2%) received invasive mechanical ventilation.

Patients aged 60 to 69 years represented the most common age group both hospitalized (n = 93, 24.6%) and admitted to the ICU (n = 31, 27.4%) (Figure). However, adults of all ages were admitted, and the proportion of younger and middle-aged adults (≤59 years) who were hospitalized (n = 172, 45.6%) was similar to the proportion of older adults (≥60 years) who were hospitalized (n = 205, 54.4%).

Of 321 patients with discharge dispositions, 50 (15.6%) died in the hospital. Of 253 patients treated on the ward with discharge dispositions, 16 (6.3%) died. Of 68 patients treated in the ICU with discharge dispositions, 34 (50.0%) died.]

Now those were all PCR tests. For now pending more experience we have to take ELISA antibody tests with somewhat of a grain of salt pending reliable validation and further experience.

The problem is test accuracy and specificity. The problem being that if antibodies detected were induced by exposure to Covid 19, yes, they had exposure. The question becomes is are we actually detecting a past infection with a different Corona virus. We know for certain that some tests have, especially from the UK, which have very strict criteria for these test, and has frustrated the public and politicians causing missed targets. However Professor Chris Whitty is correct, in that an inaccurate test is worse than no test.

We really are just at the beginning of understanding the epidemiology of this Covid 19 pandemic and I'm sure our understanding will undergo a lot of iterations over time.
That is the reality of medicine, data changes over time and becomes more precise. So that results in changing advice and recommendations to the public, which is confusing to individuals. That can not be helped.

That is why I'm very excited about the project getting under way here in Minnesota. I hope it will provide a lot of answers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Dakota county where we reside have just felt compelled to send out this public service announcement by Email!

Marketing Communications and Social Media Specialist Dakota County
, Dakota County GovernmentAGENCY

Do not ingest cleaning products
Under no circumstances should you drink, eat, or inject cleaning products like bleach or disinfecting alcohol. These are only useful for cleaning surfaces, and could cause serious harm or death if ingested. Call MN Poison Control if you or someone you know has ingested any cleaning products: 1-800-222-1222

 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I dunno! After Trump puts Jared Kushner in charge of FDA and Jared declares that "FDA is for us, not the states", then it would be up to each state to make their own call and here in GA, Kemp will leave it up to each person to make their own call ... because that is much more effective governance!:rolleyes:
Will he let you run around naked out in the streets? Your call? Or, that is very narrow what is your call? :)
 

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