Coronavirus

[TLS Guy]

This clever little limerick has just appeared in the comments section of the Minneapolis Star Tribune in an article about this.

The mind of Trump is a machine
Inventive creative and keen
He figured with ease
That to beat this disease
We simply inject Mr. Clean

It hadn’t occurred to the docs
It was just too far out of the box
But from Don breakthroughs hatch
With peerless dispatch
Or maybe he saw it on Fox

 

[Swerd]

I heard a large dose of Cyanide works wonders for curing the virus but unfortunately it only works for those that watch Fox News. Everyone else need not bother.

Unfortunately, daily watchers of Faux News seem to have developed an usually high tolerance for cyanide-laced Kool Aid . Something stronger is needed.

 

[Trell]

I can relate to the intolerance of morons regardless of their political positions.

At the end of the day, we aren't who we feel we are on the inside, we are what we do.

I understand your point of view but that argument/explanation leaves me unsatisfied, and it has for very many years. Intent does matter, and the laws reflect that.

We know what the GOP does. This isn't just "Trump".
What he is trying to do is keep the GOP in power.

TLS is more than capable to defend his own views

But parties do change, always has, but sometimes the change into is just incompatible with own's values.

 

[Swerd]

Sorry, but this Kemp/Trump BS is really bringing out the cynic in me! It is just too stupid to believe, but it is our (especially my - in Georgia) reality!

The cynic in me thinks Trump will say anything to change the subject from his widely ridiculed & failed effort to promote hydroxychloroquine* as Covid-19 treatment. He's often done that before, saying something obviously outrageous, like throwing a dead cat on the table, just to distract attention away from a subject. Yesterday's version of a throwing a dead cat on the table was saying bleach, isopropyl alcohol and UV light should be considered as medical treatments.

* Safety data from a large study of Veterans Administration patients was recently examined earlier this week. Of 358 patients hospitalized with Covid-19:

• 28% died among those treated with hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin
• 22% died among those treated with hydroxychloroquine alone
• 11% died among those who received neither drug

This data, part of an ongoing study, was enough for an independent review panel to recommend abandoning hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin treatment of Covid-19 patients.

 

[JerryLove]

well, that's not a nice way to talk about 'Sleepy Joe' .........

if elected, sadly he could inherit another mess next winter, one can only hope and pray not !

By all means. Let's compare the end of the Obama administration's tenure to now.

you say that as if the Democrats are above reproach ? far left a-holes are no better than their far right counterparts

A straw man is where you tell me what I"m saying and then attack the thing *you* said I said rather than anything I said.

 

[KEW]

The cynic in me thinks Trump will say anything to change the subject from his widely ridiculed & failed effort to promote hydroxychloroquine as Covid-19 treatment. He's often done that before, saying something obviously outrageous, like throwing a dead cat on the table, just to distract attention away from a subject. Yesterday's version of a throwing a dead cat on the table was saying bleach, isopropyl alcohol and UV light should be considered as medical treatments.

The other thing he does is say about everything about every topic - sometimes contradicting himself within the same speech!
This helps with his fake news narrative because Fox and the other right wing media will play whichever sound bites make him look best (after it is clear what was correct) and depict him as a man of great/genius intuition (or whatever) - seeing is believing and the idea that someone is constantly contradicting himself is not typical to how we perceive people. CNN will play the clips that make him look like a total idiot!
If you watch Fox and see how much wisdom Trump had for any given situation (based on those select sound bites) and then you hear the Democrats saying Trump said the opposite of what you saw Trump say it is easy to believe the "fake news" narrative!

 

[chris357]

Here's the whole segment just for context. He never said people should go inject disinfectant.

 

[Swerd]

The other thing he does is say about everything about every topic - sometimes contradicting himself within the same speech!
This helps with his fake news narrative because Fox and the other right wing media will play whichever sound bites make him look best (after it is clear what was correct) and depict him as a man of great/genius intuition (or whatever) - seeing is believing and the idea that someone is constantly contradicting himself is not typical to how we perceive people. CNN will play the clips that make him look like a total idiot!
If you watch Fox and see how much wisdom Trump had for any given situation (based on those select sound bites) and then you hear the Democrats saying Trump said the opposite of what you saw Trump say it is easy to believe the "fake news" narrative!

You must watch Faux News more than I do. I avoid it now for fear of the cyanide-Kool Aid effect. I don't have any tolerance for it.

 

[JerryLove]

Here's the whole segment just for context. He never said people should go inject disinfectant.

" I see disinfectant knocks it out in, like, a minute. Is there a way we can do that? Injection inside and almost a cleaning".

He also impliesthat light "either through the skin or in the body" will cure you.

 

[JerryLove]

I understand your point of view but that argument/explanation leaves me unsatisfied, and it has for very many years. Intent does matter, and the laws reflect that.

I fear you may be confusing intent and motivation here. The intent is to keep the GOP in power. It has been thusly stated.

Though a bus driver that doesn't intend to keep running into pedestrians but does keep running into pedestrians is a bad bus driver... just not necessarily an evil one.

But parties do change, always has, but sometimes the change into is just incompatible with own's values.

And the judge of our character is whether we are loyal to our party or our values.

To be ignorant of the harm the GOP is doing requires a willful ignorance that subverts most "intent" defenses.

 

[chris357]

" I see disinfectant knocks it out in, like, a minute. Is there a way we can do that? Injection inside and almost a cleaning".

He also impliesthat light "either through the skin or in the body" will cure you.

He's commenting on what William Bryan had said, he's literally saying you guys are investigating these things, and that he's not a doctor and that you need a doctors input. My god you guys really hate this guy and are putting words in his mouth.

 

[JerryLove]

He's commenting on what William Bryan had said, he's literally saying you guys are investigating these things, and that he's not a doctor and that you need a doctors input. My god you guys really hate this guy and are putting words in his mouth.

You are in willful denial.

Trump's hedging is irrelevant. People are hearing "injecting yourself with cleaning agent may cure you", and not simply people who know that it wont (and that it will hurt or kill you). That's why you are seeing press-releases from, for example, Lysol, telling people not to do this.

If you truly don't see the advocacy: please spend some time trying to figure out what in your processing of data has you so far skewed.

If you do: please stop trolling with disingenuous comments.

And BTW: Even being OK with a person who isn't sure if injecting yourself with bleach is bad as leader of the country is unfathomable to me. I don't need to wait on TLS or Swerd to know it's a terrible idea.

And Bryan should have shoved him from the mike and said "whatever you do: don't try the things Trump just alluded to. Injecting yourself with cleaning agents will not hut the virus but it will hurt you!".

 

[Trell]

I fear you may be confusing intent and motivation here. The intent is to keep the GOP in power. It has been thusly stated.

I believe (at least hope) I'm not that confused. He did state what you wrote but I also believe that his G.O.P. is not the current one.

Though a bus driver that doesn't intend to keep running into pedestrians but does keep running into pedestrians is a bad bus driver... just not necessarily an evil one.

Yeah, keep hacking on that straw man

And the judge of our character is whether we are loyal to our party or our values.

Really?

To be ignorant of the harm the GOP is doing requires a willful ignorance that subverts most "intent" defenses.

I think that he has been very clear what is on his mind.

 

[Danzilla31]

I am going to give you fair warning. One more post from you suggesting this infection is comparable to flu, will earn you my second ever dumb rating.

What flu does not do.

It does not cause people to have to go on ventilators in unprecedented numbers.

It does not cause a unique and terrible lung injury never seen before, that is very hard to manage and keeps people on ventilators for extraordinary lengths of time and even require ECMO.

It does not attack blood vessels, causing strokes, permanent heart damage, kidney damage in some case requiring long term dialysis, loss of limbs, and liver damage. All of these problems that will add a long term burden of care to health systems.

It does not infect and kill medical staff in the appalling fashion this virus does.

To top it off in the US that should be leading the world, we either have an idiot in charge, or ho more likely has a Tau protein eating his brain away. He fulfills all the major criteria for Pics disease. I, and now many others strongly suspect he has it.

Congress needs to come together and march our President off to the nearest MRI scanner, before we get more nonsense about getting UV light into the body, or ingesting, injecting or inhaling disinfectants.

As I a Republican I would doubt he will capture even 20% of the popular vote come November. So if he is not promptly removed he will do a generation of damage to the party that cold even be terminal.

So if you want to see our party preserved then you need to join a chorus for this highly impaired mans prompt removal. He is a serious danger and embarrassment to our county. If you don't believe me just look at the foreign press today. You should just see the Emails I getting from the UK!

A couple questions not for being argumentative but to understand better

The other complications this disease causes is it only in the severely hospitalized? Or is it across the board?

Could some of the damage your mentioning be linked to ventilators and other invasive treatments from what it sounds like they can be hard on the body or is it clearly been linked to the virus and the disease it causes?

From what I understand on the 3 studies there is an error rate that needs to be factored in to there studies am I correct? It's probably being underreported we are all not surprised by that but due to the error rates on the tests it may not be on a factor of 50 to 80 it may be being underreported but not on quiet that high of a scale because those types of tests still need to be improved before they are more accurate

Even though it's underreported there still is nowhere near enough antibody levels to be careless about opening back up. We are nowhere near herd immunity from what it looks like. In fact the researchers were stating there is still debate among researchers what immunity looks like for this virus am I correct?

As far as the politics I don't even know what to ask on that I'm a Republican but if my option is Trump I may be forced to make to do something I've never done before and vote the other way

I don't understand politics the way you guys do but I just feel deregulation has developed to the point that it favors big business at the expense of a strong middle class anymore on top of that its cost us dearly on our ability to medically respond to a crises that where in now

The parties were developed or evolved for the same reason as other branches of our government as a form of checks and balances correct

Maybe it's time for the balance to swing the other way

But as stated I don't have the same grasp as some do on this so maybe some help on this matter would be appreciated

 

[Danzilla31]

Regardless one thing I need to be clear on I feel that we have to find a way to open up at least parts of the economy

Not the way certain states are doing it now but we gotta do something this virus isn't going anywhere and if it gets any worse with our economy it's going to be catastrophic we could be heading for a world wide depression

I went to subway to pick up lunch today due to my mom just being worn out cooking no dine in allowed you have a limit to how many are in the store they have to be a certain distance apart and EVERYONE BY LAW at least in San Antonio cannot enter or be out in public without wearing a mask

Why can't those measure be applied in certain places where the numbers allow it to slowly see if we can open them back up?

Maybe someone can help me understand that one

Regardless I think the vulnerable need to be protected but I also think there has to be a better balance then this no one is going to change my mind on this

But I'm open minded on every thing else that's just how I feel if that gives me certain ratings oh well I'd rather be real and learn something from people I disagree with then just not be myself and not learn anything by not speaking up

 

[KEW]

Regardless I think the vulnerable need to be protected but I also think there has to be a better balance then this no one is going to change my mind on this

I think (hope at least) everyone agrees with this.
The big question is what is the "better balance"?
This is an extremely difficult question with huge consequences if we get it wrong. But what makes it so difficult is:

1) We still don't know that much about it - as you point out the VA study is not a full blown rigorous study that FDA would make decisions from, it is the type of study you might do to test whether it would be appropriate to invest the money required for a full-blown study. This is a fair example of teh status of many other studies that are mostly in "pre-study" phase.
In two years, we will have a very nice database of info on the virus. If we had that today, you and I could probably come up with a better plan that the experts having to deal with all of the current unknowns!.

2) I think a viable plan would be pretty easy if we had access to unlimited testing; however, there is currently a limited amount of reagents (required to perform the testing) available and most of it is already spoken for on a worldwide basis. The US was late getting to the "reagent store", so even as the number of tests performed here is growing, it will soon reach a different hard limit! But if we had plentiful testing it would make many of the questions in reopening the economy much easier to answer - a "better balance" could be had.

3) The proposed digital/phone tracking tools will help in a similar fashion, but they are not yet a reality. I fear they may be delayed by (legitimate, but not as important as fighting CV, IMHO) privacy concerns! This could end up being another pissing match with people who think CV equates with flu l giving priority to privacy.

So in the end, the committees of people who do this intelligently will make a lot of assumptions and watch predetermined metrics carefully with an ABORT button in their hands. As things progress, they will gain better understanding and the assumptions will be confirmed or debunked and the plan will be modified. It will have to be a "work in progress" as the experts gather more and more knowledge.

I am more than a little concerned that the people responsible for the business side of opening the economy were picked by Trump, himself, because I fear that they will be more attentive to Trump's ideas/lead than the science/facts. In the end that will hurt opening the economy more than helping it, but I honestly believe Trump is more worried about positioning himself to win the election in November than he is worried about long-term results/consequences!

 

[TLS Guy]

Here's the whole segment just for context. He never said people should go inject disinfectant.

Well swipe me! We have a government agency, telling us that UV light causes genetic damage to RNA and DNA, and that commonly used disinfectants actually work. Who knew? I bet you can hear the laughs in Porton Down way outside their security perimeter.

We really are embarrassing ourselves on the international stage. After that Trump adds insult to injury.

Honestly if I had a patient even considering drinking, inhaling injecting bleach, or an industrial alcohol, I would e telling the family we needed the advice of a neuropsychologist, a psychiatrist and a neurologist, especially at the age of the POTUS.

 

[TLS Guy]

A couple questions not for being argumentative but to understand better

The other complications this disease causes is it only in the severely hospitalized? Or is it across the board?

Could some of the damage your mentioning be linked to ventilators and other invasive treatments from what it sounds like they can be hard on the body or is it clearly been linked to the virus and the disease it causes?

From what I understand on the 3 studies there is an error rate that needs to be factored in to there studies am I correct? It's probably being underreported we are all not surprised by that but due to the error rates on the tests it may not be on a factor of 50 to 80 it may be being underreported but not on quiet that high of a scale because those types of tests still need to be improved before they are more accurate

Even though it's underreported there still is nowhere near enough antibody levels to be careless about opening back up. We are nowhere near herd immunity from what it looks like. In fact the researchers were stating there is still debate among researchers what immunity looks like for this virus am I correct?

As far as the politics I don't even know what to ask on that I'm a Republican but if my option is Trump I may be forced to make to do something I've never done before and vote the other way

I don't understand politics the way you guys do but I just feel deregulation has developed to the point that it favors big business at the expense of a strong middle class anymore on top of that its cost us dearly on our ability to medically respond to a crises that where in now

The parties were developed or evolved for the same reason as other branches of our government as a form of checks and balances correct

Maybe it's time for the balance to swing the other way

But as stated I don't have the same grasp as some do on this so maybe some help on this matter would be appreciated

No vascular complications are being seen in people mildly affected without risk factors and in their early twenties. This virus is having a nasty affect on some peoples blood vessels. In this case it seems to be involving both large and small vessels and veins. There are increasing reports of pulmonary embolism. In fact pulmonary embolism can be a presenting symptom. The more we find about this virus the nastier it looks. Dr Ashton made that exact point on ABC GMA yesterday.

 

[Swerd]

And BTW: Even being OK with a person who isn't sure if injecting yourself with bleach is bad as leader of the country is unfathomable to me. I don't need to wait on TLS or Swerd to know it's a terrible idea.

Most all 5-year-old kids know that you won't live long if you drink Chlorox or Lysol. This ain't rocket science… you certainly don't need an advanced degree in medicine or biochemistry to get it.

One also doesn't have to be Cynical With A Capital C to recognize Trump's Dead Cat tactics. Why is there biomedical research (and I use the terms 'biomedical' and 'research' loosely) going on in the Dept. of Homeland Security? Why was this done other than to deliberately smear the reputations of the HHS, NIH, and the FDA? We've seen efforts like this before, done to undermine the intelligence pros in the CIA and NSA.

 

[herbu]

When you say exposed, does that mean they are testing positive, but don't have symptoms?

Yes, that was my understanding. In order to test positive for the antibodies, you had to actually have the virus at some point. Maybe Doc can clarify.

If that's true, it means many, many more people have had the virus than the denominator currently being used. And that means many people with the virus have few or no symptoms. All that makes sense to me because up until now, the only people being tested were sick people with symptoms. So the reported mortality rate was really, "Of all the people sick with serious symptoms, X% die". Now we're learning, "Of all the people with the virus, Y% die". There's a difference, and it seems like a significant difference to me.