Parts and measurements of the SVS Ultra bookshelf

[D Murphy]

One thing about his impression of sound that doesn't match my own is the sibilance. Sibilant speakers typically have some kind of elevation from 4 kHz to around 8 kHz, but these speakers are actually recessed in that range (if his measurements are correct). These speakers look to be the opposite of sibilant. I would guess that the sibilance that he was hearing was a matter of the recordings, not the speakers themselves.

One other thing, he is giving too much weight to CSD measurements. There is no research that has demonstrated the audibility of any of that, and it's hard to argue that is even anything more than a function of the frequency response itself.

He seems to think FR and CSD plots are separate entities, rather than different ways of looking at the same thing. However, the dude must be a genius, because his own monitors in the background sure look like my MB0w1's in Salk cabinets. I don't know what else they would be. Finally, as may have been mentioned by someone else, this is the same dude who does in-depth car reviews. He seems to know more about front-biased AWD than speaker measurements, but he did have me almost convinced to buy a Golf R.

 

[ryanosaur]

because his own monitors in the background sure look like my MB0w1's in Salk cabinets. I don't know what else they would be.

I think he mentions in one of the Buchardt S400 videos what they are, and that a review might be forthcoming. Sadly, I do not believe they are what we would all hope them to be... IIRC they were a DIY from a friend of his.

 

[D Murphy]

I think he mentions in one of the Buchardt S400 videos what they are, and that a review might be forthcoming. Sadly, I do not believe they are what we would all hope them to be... IIRC they were a DIY from a friend of his.

I don't see that as a problem--they were designed for the DIY market. But that was a long time ago. Haven't seen those mentioned for like 12-15 years.

 

[D Murphy]

He seems to think FR and CSD plots are separate entities, rather than different ways of looking at the same thing. However, the dude must be a genius, because his own monitors in the background sure look like my MB0w1's in Salk cabinets. I don't know what else they would be. Finally, as may have been mentioned by someone else, this is the same dude who does in-depth car reviews. He seems to know more about front-biased AWD than speaker measurements, but he did have me almost convinced to buy a Golf R.

Ooooops Happy to report that I was dead wrong about this dude being the same as the car dude over on Savage Geese. They kind of look alike, and the car guy has tests done on car audio systems, but the car reviews are much closer to the real deal than the other guy's speaker spiels.

 

[ryanosaur]

I don't see that as a problem--they were designed for the DIY market. But that was a long time ago. Haven't seen those mentioned for like 12-15 years.

Is his name Ron? Whatever they are, he has high praise for the build on that shelf. Of course it had to do with his friend going all out on components and such.
That said, it would be pretty cool if they were based on your design. That's all I meant up above.

We'll just have to stay tuned to see!

 

[shadyJ]

Ooooops Happy to report that I was dead wrong about this dude being the same as the car dude over on Savage Geese. They kind of look alike, and the car guy has tests done on car audio systems, but the car reviews are much closer to the real deal than the other guy's speaker spiels.

I watched the savage geese review of the Lexus LC500. Gotdamn I want that car...

 

[Swerd]

… However, the dude must be a genius, because his own monitors in the background sure look like my MB0w1's in Salk cabinets. I don't know what else they would be.

Those monitors on the shelves on either side of the dude, look to me like they have ~1" dome tweeters, not the ¾" tweeters of the MBOW1. If so, could they be the A/V-1 sold by GR Research sells, or something similar with a nicely finished cabinet? It uses the same woofer as in your MBOW1 and MB27 designs, with a different tweeter. That tweeter mounting plate looks like it's slightly dished in or recessed, as if it's a controlled dispersion type design.

Here is one of those speakers enlarged from a screen shot of the video.

 

[Swerd]

While I'm looking at screen shots, here is an enlargement of the frequency response.

That loss of response is hardly a polite "dip", its a chasm. It begins at 2 kHz and continues to above 8 kHz. It bottoms out between 3-6 kHz, but the response begins to drop gradually between 1-2 kHz, and drops more noticeably between 2-3 kHz.

On the treble side of that broad chasm, the response returns to ~87-88 dB between roughly 6-8.5 kHz. And it gradually gets to 90 dB somewhere between 10 and 20 kHz.

To my eye this looks like the Grand Canyon of BBC Dips. All this makes me wonder what the unfiltered frequency response of the woofer looks like.

 

[D Murphy]

You may be right. The key would be the number of screw holes--the 0W1's only have 3, and Danny's tweet has 6, at least in the latest model (the T3), But my aging eyes can't make out the screw holes.

 

[Pogre]

Jesus Christ I keep going from "Oh, they're not too bad after all!" to "Boy they sure do look like they suck bawls!".

I thought the follow up video was somewhat positive. Now I don't know if the consensus of the Ultras are "horrible", a numbnut YouTuber who doesn't measure accurately or knows how to interpret charts, or if the measurements from Gene and S & V tell a slightly different story.

I'm sticking to my first and current impressions of "They sure sound nice all set up an dialed in" and forgetting this video ever happened...

 

[Swerd]

Jesus Christ I keep going from "Oh, they're not too bad after all!" to "Boy they sure do look like they suck bawls!".

I thought the follow up video was somewhat positive. Now I don't know if the consensus of the Ultras are "horrible", a numbnut YouTuber who doesn't measure accurately or knows how to interpret charts, or if the measurements from Gene and S & V tell a slightly different story.

I'm sticking to my first and current impressions of "They sure sound nice all set up an dialed in" and forgetting this video ever happened...

I've heard the tower version of the SVS Ultras a few years ago at an audio show. I thought they were pleasant sounding. I can only assume the tower version had similar treatment in the lower treble as seen in the Ultra bookshelves, but I don't know for certain.

I don't think the reviewer was a "numbnut You Tuber", but what he avoided saying was probably more important than what he did say.

It's my guess that the glass fiber impregnated woofer might have a high frequency resonance peak or peaks. I can only guess unless I could see its unfiltered frequency response. This peak, if it exists, would be somewhere in the range of the large chasm from 3-6 kHz, and SVS suppressed it with their crossover network. Compared to what I've heard in older B&W bookshelf speakers with Kevlar woofers, I think SVS did a much better job of suppressing that potentially noisy peak.

 

[Swerd]

You may be right. The key would be the number of screw holes--the 0W1's only have 3, and Danny's tweet has 6, at least in the latest model (the T3), But my aging eyes can't make out the screw holes.

I enlarged a small section of a screen shot from the video. It's too pixelated or out of focus. I can't make that out those screw holes with my surgically enhanced bionic eyes.

I looked at the video again, full screen. At 1 minute, look at the monitor on the left side of the screen. I think I see 4 screw heads on the tweeter.

 

[Swerd]

Here's a Salk version of the MBOW-1. The 3 screws on the tweeter mounting plate are clearly visible. Also, note the relatively small size of the ¾" dome compared to the larger looking tweeter dome in the video.

 

[Pogre]

I've heard the tower version of the SVS Ultras a few years ago at an audio show. I thought it was pleasant sounding. I can only assume the tower version had similar treatment in the lower treble as seen in the Ultra bookshelves, but I don't know for certain.

I don't think the reviewer was a "numbnut You Tuber", but what he avoided saying was probably more important than what he did say.

It's my guess that the glass fiber impregnated woofer might have a high frequency resonance peak or peaks. I can only guess unless I could see its unfiltered frequency response. This peak, if it exists, would be somewhere in the range of the large chasm from 3-6 kHz, and SVS suppressed it with their crossover network. Compared to what I've heard in older B&W bookshelf speakers with Kevlar woofers, I think SVS did a much better job of suppressing that potentially noisy peak.

It certainly explains why Audyssey does a +1 dB boost starting at 4kHz that goes up to a +4 dB boost at 8 kHz. That's right in that saddle. I agree with you that it's a lot more audible in quite a few of the B&W speakers I've heard.

 

[Tomorrow]

I've heard the tower version of the SVS Ultras a few years ago at an audio show. I thought they were pleasant sounding. I can only assume the tower version had similar treatment in the lower treble as seen in the Ultra bookshelves, but I don't know for certain.

I don't think the reviewer was a "numbnut You Tuber", but what he avoided saying was probably more important than what he did say.

It's my guess that the glass fiber impregnated woofer might have a high frequency resonance peak or peaks. I can only guess unless I could see its unfiltered frequency response. This peak, if it exists, would be somewhere in the range of the large chasm from 3-6 kHz, and SVS suppressed it with their crossover network. Compared to what I've heard in older B&W bookshelf speakers with Kevlar woofers, I think SVS did a much better job of suppressing that potentially noisy peak.

Your experience with the Ultras may have been at our GTG. Here is one view of the tower.

The bookshelf speakers were also present. I completely agree with your assessment, Swerd.

My recollection was that the little Ultras were quite pleasant with a touch of unevenness at the high end. I think Dennis and I may have had a brief conversation about the tweeters, later...by email. (He didn't attend that year.) So there was something noticed about them.

 

[ryanosaur]

OK... Took one for the team. In the following JBL 530 video, clip beginning at 21:41, he identifies them as X-LS Encores (from GR). He also mentions a GR Research Studio Monitor at about 20:50.

X-LS Encore kit

X-LS Encore kit. High level performance at a budget price point.

gr-research.com

I think this might be the monitor they are talking about at the earlier timestamp:

A/V-1

A/V-1 Mini monitor

gr-research.com

 

[shadyJ]

Jesus Christ I keep going from "Oh, they're not too bad after all!" to "Boy they sure do look like they suck bawls!".

I thought the follow up video was somewhat positive. Now I don't know if the consensus of the Ultras are "horrible", a numbnut YouTuber who doesn't measure accurately or knows how to interpret charts, or if the measurements from Gene and S & V tell a slightly different story.

I'm sticking to my first and current impressions of "They sure sound nice all set up an dialed in" and forgetting this video ever happened...

Don't think that these speakers are bad because of someone's interpretation of a graph. While I do prefer accuracy, there are some voiced response types that I have found to be pretty listenable. I think these would fall into that category. The effect would be to suppress the upper harmonics of some instruments a bit. This mellows things out. This can be pretty beneficial if you like older rock or recordings with a lot of artificial distortion. I bet that these speakers would make '80s and '90s metal to actually be listenable. Some recordings are very sibilant on their own, and these speakers could help alleviate that.

There is also the matter of the off-axis response. We only have the on-axis response from these people, and that isn't enough to characterize a speaker's sound. How much does this voicing carry over to off-axis angles? in my opinion, no review has given us sufficient data to get a firm handle on the sound of these speakers.

 

[D Murphy]

OK... Took one for the team. In the following JBL 530 video, clip beginning at 21:41, he identifies them as X-LS Encores (from GR). He also mentions a GR Research Studio Monitor at about 20:50.

X-LS Encore kit

X-LS Encore kit. High level performance at a budget price point.

gr-research.com

I think this might be the monitor they are talking about at the earlier timestamp:

A/V-1

A/V-1 Mini monitor

gr-research.com

Thanks for the detective work. I was thrown off both my the cabinet and the tweeter, which isn't the same one Danny has been using in his budget line. I'm kind of surprised he published the horizontal off-axis plots. Even I would worry about the peak on the 40 degree measurement.

 

[ryanosaur]

Thanks for the detective work. I was thrown off both my the cabinet and the tweeter, which isn't the same one Danny has been using in his budget line. I'm kind of surprised he published the horizontal off-axis plots. Even I would worry about the peak on the 40 degree measurement.

Dennis, I know it depends on the goal of the speaker designer, ultimately... But for wider dispersion speakers (You know, like the ones I've kinda taken a liking too *blushes) at what point would you not worry about off axis response? (If at all.)
Looking at his graph, I see exactly what you are saying. What would that type of response sound like, if you can describe it?
Thanks!

 

[STRONGBADF1]

Those monitors on the shelves on either side of the dude, look to me like they have ~1" dome tweeters, not the ¾" tweeters of the MBOW1. If so, could they be the A/V-1 sold by GR Research sells, or something similar with a nicely finished cabinet? It uses the same woofer as in your MBOW1 and MB27 designs, with a different tweeter. That tweeter mounting plate looks like it's slightly dished in or recessed, as if it's a controlled dispersion type design.

Here is one of those speakers enlarged from a screen shot of the video.
View attachment 35134

The first speaker I thought of was the good old AV123 XL-S... Remember that crazy sob!