Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Speaking of context: You are ignoring the claim I was responding to:
"What we do know is that this pandemic is at least 10 times deadlier than any other pandemic certainly in all our life times. "

HIV is a pandemic within my lifetime. It started within my lifetime. It's killed 32 million. Coronavirus seems unlikely to kill 320,000,000 people... though I suppose time will tell. Then again, HIV isn't done either.

Context sorted out, let me respond to your claims.
Overall, 75 million have been infected and 32 million have died. That's about 45% mortality (SARS-COV-2 is <4%). But to your point, that's since the beginning.

770,000 died worldwide in 2018. There appear to be about 5 million new infections per year; so mortality as of two years ago is about 15%. That's still higher than 4%.

So Corona virus is likely to kill more people this year. To kill as many as HIV overall, at 2% mortality, ti would need to infect 1,600,000,000 (that number increases as mortality estimates go down). To be "10x as deadly", it would need to infect everyone in the world and have about a 5% mortality (or half the world at 10%).
I was listing the generally accepted official mortality figures, you are listing straight calculations over decades. Mortality calculations aren't done the way you are because they are inaccurate. You can't do direct calculations because the number of new cases is constantly changing and your calculation includes both those who had the virus for decades along with those who are newly diagnosed. Further, it's biased by inaccurate surveillance figures.

In public health, deadly isn't defined by the number of total people who die in a given year but the potential for death. If something is not very deadly in terms of the mortality rate, but spreads like crazy, that is a bigger deal than something that has a really high mortality rate, but rarely spreads at all. Prions are very deadly, but they rarely spread. The concern with COVID-19 is that its more deadly than most similar viruses while spreading much faster. It spreads far quicker and more easily than HIV/AIDS. We don't wait for it to kill a ton of people before worrying about it being deadly, by that point it is too late.



 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
I was listing the generally accepted official mortality figures,
Are you disputing that HIV has a mortality rate higher than Coronavirus / 10 ?

That has nothing to do with my original post, but fine. Please link to the worldwide mortality rate for HIV.

And BTW: though I'm quite confident that this year's mortality rate for HIV infected people is > Coronavirus/10, since this is about "in all our lifetimes", you really need to take HIV's worst year; which you've already admitted had a way higher mortality than Coronavirus.

In public health, deadly isn't defined by the number of total people who die in a given year
OK. Please give a definition of "deadly".

Not a definition of "of concern", because that's not the topic nor your claim. You claim I've mis--used "deadly".. so what, exactly, is the formula for "deadliness".

Again, for the slow people in the room, here's what I'm responding to
"What we do know is that this pandemic is at least 10 times deadlier than any other pandemic certainly in all our life times."

That is not true in terms of mortality (this is not 10x more likely to kill someone than HIV, not today and certainly not at the worst point of HIV "in all our lifetimes").
That is not true in terms of total deaths (this is unlikely to kill 320,000,000 people, 10x what HIV has killed so far).

HIV kills more of the people infected.
HIV might not kill more people overall, but if it "looses" it won't be by the order of magnitude required to make the statement I'm disputing true.

You might have a shot on "in a year". 2020 might have more coroavirus deaths than HIVs worst year (1995 I think) by an order of magnitude... but that's yet to be seen.

We don't wait for it to kill a ton of people before worrying about it being deadly, by that point it is too late.
Please quote me saying we shouldn't worry about SARS-COV-2.

You can't, because I've never said anything like that.

Google "Straw man fallacy" please. You are making several.
 
Last edited:
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Are you disputing that HIV has a mortality rate higher than Coronavirus / 10 ?

That has nothing to do with my original post, but fine. Please link to the worldwide mortality rate for HIV.

And BTW: though I'm quite confident that this year's mortality rate for HIV infected people is > Coronavirus/10, since this is about "in all our lifetimes", you really need to take HIV's worst year; which you've already admitted had a way higher mortality than Coronavirus.


OK. Please give a definition of "deadly".

Not a definition of "of concern", because that's not the topic nor your claim. You claim I've mis--used "deadly".. so what, exactly, is the formula for "deadliness".

Again, for the slow people in the room, here's what I'm responding to
"What we do know is that this pandemic is at least 10 times deadlier than any other pandemic certainly in all our life times."

That is not true in terms of mortality (this is not 10x more likely to kill someone than HIV, not today and certainly not at the worst point of HIV "in all our lifetimes").
That is not true in terms of total deaths (this is unlikely to kill 320,000,000 people, 10x what HIV has killed so far).

HIV kills more of the people infected.
HIV might not kill more people overall, but if it "looses" it won't be by the order of magnitude required to make the statement I'm disputing true.

You might have a shot on "in a year". 2020 might have more coroavirus deaths than HIVs worst year (1995 I think) by an order of magnitude... but that's yet to be seen.

Please quote me saying we shouldn't worry about SARS-COV-2.

You can't, because I've never said anything like that.

Google "Straw man fallacy" please. You are making several.
The mortality rate of HIV/AIDS is generally higher than COVID-19, but is far far less contagious.

This shows that after the introduction of retroviral drugs the mortality rate has dropped to a fraction of a percent.

I still don’t think this is a fair comparison. The biggest outbreak of aids today is in Africa where many viruses have a far higher than normal mortality rate. It highly skews the data. My understanding is that at its worst in the United States it wasn’t much worse than 10-11%, yet in parts of Africa it is as high as 30-40%.

by that account then we could look at the worst period of deaths that happened in Wuhan which our the mortality rate at over 30% as well. But it’s a ridiculous number to use because the effect was a result of a severely overwhelmed medical system that was turning away patients.

mom saying that this virus, COVID-19, is in a sense more dangerous than AIDS because it spreads so readily and is still very deadly. I’m not fully defending what TLS said but I get why he said it.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
While I'm sure the media is sensationalizing some of this, how would this view really explain the government responses around the world?
The media is not making "government responses" here or anywhere. The governments are making "government responses". But the media is doing what they always do, write the stories to suit their agenda. They are commentary, not news... at least not all of the news. I do not think I said the media/left is orchestrating the responses, just taking advantage of them for their own liberal agenda. And with the impact already seen, and expected to come, I don't think their business-as-usual approach is appropriate or helpful.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
The mortality rate of HIV/AIDS is generally higher than COVID-19, but is far far less contagious.
I agree and have never said otherwise.

This shows that after the introduction of retroviral drugs the mortality rate has dropped to a fraction of a percent.
Among the Swiss receiving the drugs.

Not all people with HIV are receiving the drugs, and not all who are are as good at taking them on-schedule as the Swiss.

Also: your study says "1.3% before accounting for co-infections which raise it"; not "a fraction of a percent".

I still don’t think this is a fair comparison. The biggest outbreak of aids today is in Africa where many viruses have a far higher than normal mortality rate. It highly skews the data. My understanding is that at its worst in the United States it wasn’t much worse than 10-11%, yet in parts of Africa it is as high as 30-40%.
in 1981 the only way to have HIV and not die of AIDS was to die of something else first. It could sit reasonably dormant, but it would kill you.

Africa does count, because there are people in it.
And 1995 does count, because it's "within all our lifetimes".

by that account then we could look at the worst period of deaths that happened in Wuhan which our the mortality rate at over 30% as well. But it’s a ridiculous number to use because the effect was a result of a severely overwhelmed medical system that was turning away patients.
Yea. I mean: That would be as silly as excluding the entire continent of Africa, or two decades of time, thus artificially lowering the historic and worldwide threat of HIV.

You seem to want to eat your cake and have it too. I've offered to look at overall numbers. I've offered to look at "worst year" numbers. But you seem to want to prop up some straw-man version of the argument to hack at it.

mom saying that this virus, COVID-19, is in a sense more dangerous than AIDS because it spreads so readily and is still very deadly. I’m not fully defending what TLS said but I get why he said it.
For most of the world, this year, it certainly is more dangerous.

But it's not 10x more deadly than any pandemic to ever occur in our lifetimes. Not in any measure.

Because if you judge by "how many it kills this year" then "in all of history,SARS-COV-2 is more deadly than smallpox", since small pox won't kill anyone this year. It's a silly statement.

I don't think TLS was lying... I just think he was either lose with his language or else didn't think of HIV when he was writing. His point is valid, and I appreciate his posts on the subject... but the statement was an error and I pointed it out.
 
JerryLove

JerryLove

Audioholic Ninja
The media is not making "government responses" here or anywhere. The governments are making "government responses". But the media is doing what they always do, write the stories to suit their agenda. They are commentary, not news... at least not all of the news. I do not think I said the media/left is orchestrating the responses, just taking advantage of them for their own liberal agenda. And with the impact already seen, and expected to come, I don't think their business-as-usual approach is appropriate or helpful.
Oh look. Someone taking advantage of coronavirus to further his agenda of anti-liberal propiganda.
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
You can't use logic and reason. What are you thinking!
Well, I was thinking that your reading comprehension was better. You assume I believe what your kind likes to think all conservatives believe, rather than read and understand what I write. I was hoping we would be able to have a conversation. My bad.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
You will finally meet me there. :D I just don't want to beat you there and wait.:cool:
That was a cool trick... somehow attributing Ponzio's words to me. :)
It's OK, either way...
Except in the grand scheme of things none of us will be meeting in Hades... or any other place beginning with an H. :p

Perhaps it's always good to be hopeful. Rather than pushing up daisies, I'd like a nice Redwood or Cypress above me. :cool:
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
I agree and have never said otherwise.

Among the Swiss receiving the drugs.

Not all people with HIV are receiving the drugs, and not all who are are as good at taking them on-schedule as the Swiss.

Also: your study says "1.3% before accounting for co-infections which raise it"; not "a fraction of a percent".


in 1981 the only way to have HIV and not die of AIDS was to die of something else first. It could sit reasonably dormant, but it would kill you.

Africa does count, because there are people in it.
And 1995 does count, because it's "within all our lifetimes".


Yea. I mean: That would be as silly as excluding the entire continent of Africa, or two decades of time, thus artificially lowering the historic and worldwide threat of HIV.

You seem to want to eat your cake and have it too. I've offered to look at overall numbers. I've offered to look at "worst year" numbers. But you seem to want to prop up some straw-man version of the argument to hack at it.


For most of the world, this year, it certainly is more dangerous.

But it's not 10x more deadly than any pandemic to ever occur in our lifetimes. Not in any measure.

Because if you judge by "how many it kills this year" then "in all of history,SARS-COV-2 is more deadly than smallpox", since small pox won't kill anyone this year. It's a silly statement.

I don't think TLS was lying... I just think he was either lose with his language or else didn't think of HIV when he was writing. His point is valid, and I appreciate his posts on the subject... but the statement was an error and I pointed it out.
mom not really disagreeing with you. My point was that i can see someone falling this a worse pandemic, at least potentially, than HIV/AIDS because of how contagious and deadly it is. It hasn’t been around very long so obviously it isn’t going to have a very high death rate. And ultimately it may never. They may get it under control. I see your point in that regard. We shouldn’t call this the worst just yet. We need to see how controllable it ends up being.

my issue with Africa is that their medical care is awful and it’s exacerbating the mortality rate for them and has for a long time. However COVID-19 isn’t having a big presence in Africa. In general the virus doesn’t appear to be showing up in warm southern Climates. I suspect the mortality rate would go up if it did.

I also think that using the 30% mortality rate from wuhan as problematic because it was such an unrealistic scenario outside of that moment in Wuhan. It’s certainly a lesson of what can happen if we aren’t careful, but many viruses can become that deadly in that scenario.

now to totally prove your point, it’s currently believed that the overall mortality rate is around 4% for COVID-19. Its more like 90% for HIV/AIDS if untreated. While we never saw an actual mortality rate that high, parts of Africa are really high. I am certain from what I’ve read that COVID-19 is nowhere near that deadly and couldn’t be. Everyone who gets HIV/AIDS must get medical treatment or they will likely die. Most people who get COVID-19 would be fine even without medical intervention.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Well, I was thinking that your reading comprehension was better. You assume I believe what your kind likes to think all conservatives believe, rather than read and understand what I write. I was hoping we would be able to have a conversation. My bad.
what makes you assume i was talking about you. I was responding to a generalized comment.

I’m happy to have a conversation about this. However I think you have politicized something that shouldn’t be political. You have also given trump positive credit for what have proven false promises or bad policies.

he promised free tests. That didn’t happen. It took the house and senate to make that happen. You have him credit for waving copays, but that didn’t materialize. It was a promise from a small number of large insurers and turned out to apply to only a few. At this point it’s not clear it applies to anyone as it’s not certain it was even implemented. I have United, and they have indicated they aren’t waving anything.

trump is promising to put money in people’s pockets. Democrats were begging for that for years. That has been a suggested solution to similar problems for a long time. Republicans only got behind it when in an emergency, and the original proposal was $1000 checks for everyone. Why? I don’t need that check. A lot of people don’t need that check. We do have to pay for this.

he is offering low interest loans for small businesses? That isn’t very helpful. These small businesses aren’t making any money right now, how are they going to pay off the loans?

communication about the virus and how serious it is has been a joke. One that isn’t remotely funny. There has been misinformation and miscommunication. @JerryLove has already quoted Trump on the many nonsensical things he said. That was not helpful, Trump was being dangerous.

conservative media blames the liberal media for overreacting to this and making it political. The conservative media downplayed how serious this was, suggesting it was just a cold. It wasn’t. It was serious. Their advice was wrong and dangerous. The liberal media might have been hysterical, but there was far less harm in that. This IS serious and we needed to take it seriously. There was little harm in a few extra people quarantining themselves. There was great danger in a few less.

The Single biggest screw up in the initial response to this was a failure to develop tests fast enough. Trump tried to blame Obama which was completely nonsensical. He didn’t screw up the test, but it was his administration with the responsibility to fix it. We are only now seeing the tests on a large scale and we still lack the necessary infrastructure. They could have asked the WHO and South Korea for help. We would have had tests weeks earlier. But we didn’t. Was it pride? Why? It was part of the pandemic response plan that the US should have coordinated with the WHO. Why didn’t we?

completely unqualified people were put in charge of the response and we ended up with silly distractions like a non-existent website from a Google subsidiary. That website will be great in a few years. We don’t need it right now. We need more tests and a system put in place to test safely.

the majority of the actual response is coming from state and local health departments. That is how our public health works and this pandemic is showing the flaws in a decentralized public health system that relies on a fully privatized healthcare system. We can’t easily coordinate a cogent response to the virus. Some are doing drive through screenings. That is great. Others are telling people to go home and hope for the best.

As @TLS Guy has said, we don’t have the medical infrastructure to manage this. We don’t have enough doctors or nurses, enough hospital beds, or enough ventilators (critical for the treatment of patients). Trump told the Governor's to fend for themselves. Why? What are we going to do? Why aren’t we doing what Europe is doing and asking some of our manufacturing facilities to begin making ventilators. Ford is building ventilators for England.

Trump closed the boarders, but made exceptions. Why? Those exceptions can bring the virus here. It doesn’t matter that they are American. We should simply close the boarders and allow repatriotization through quarantine. But really, we shouldn’t close the boarders. WHO has noted that doing that doesn’t help. It simply makes it harder to track the virus. When we closed off travel from China, I stayed in a meeting that I didn’t think that was our biggest problem. That we were going to find community spread through unmonitored individuals who entered the country through other means. That’s what happened. Yes we needed to ask people to stop traveling, but we also needed to maintain a means to track and monitor travel. The best way to do that is not to close the boarders, which is the recommendation of pandemic response experts at the WHO.

Trump decimated funding to HHS while massively increasing spending to the military. This is the result. He disbanded a pandemic response team, one that could have managed this early on and hopefully prevented many of the missteps.

a true leader should accept that the buck stops with them. When asked if any of the problems where his fault, he said no. He deflected and blamed others. When a mistake happens in my company, on a project I manage, I fall on my sword. It’s my fault. It’s my bosses fault. That’s leadership. When I go into incident response meetings, I always say that the mistake happened because we created an environment that allowed that mistake to happen. That we need to change the culture and system that caused that.

that is my opinion.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
what makes you assume i was talking about you. I was responding to a generalized comment.

I’m happy to have a conversation about this. However I think you have politicized something that shouldn’t be political. You have also given trump positive credit for what have proven false promises or bad policies.

he promised free tests. That didn’t happen. It took the house and senate to make that happen. You have him credit for waving copays, but that didn’t materialize. It was a promise from a small number of large insurers and turned out to apply to only a few. At this point it’s not clear it applies to anyone as it’s not certain it was even implemented. I have United, and they have indicated they aren’t waving anything.

trump is promising to put money in people’s pockets. Democrats were begging for that for years. That has been a suggested solution to similar problems for a long time. Republicans only got behind it when in an emergency, and the original proposal was $1000 checks for everyone. Why? I don’t need that check. A lot of people don’t need that check. We do have to pay for this.

he is offering low interest loans for small businesses? That isn’t very helpful. These small businesses aren’t making any money right now, how are they going to pay off the loans?

communication about the virus and how serious it is has been a joke. One that isn’t remotely funny. There has been misinformation and miscommunication. @JerryLove has already quoted Trump on the many nonsensical things he said. That was not helpful, Trump was being dangerous.

conservative media blames the liberal media for overreacting to this and making it political. The conservative media downplayed how serious this was, suggesting it was just a cold. It wasn’t. It was serious. Their advice was wrong and dangerous. The liberal media might have been hysterical, but there was far less harm in that. This IS serious and we needed to take it seriously. There was little harm in a few extra people quarantining themselves. There was great danger in a few less.

The Single biggest screw up in the initial response to this was a failure to develop tests fast enough. Trump tried to blame Obama which was completely nonsensical. He didn’t screw up the test, but it was his administration with the responsibility to fix it. We are only now seeing the tests on a large scale and we still lack the necessary infrastructure. They could have asked the WHO and South Korea for help. We would have had tests weeks earlier. But we didn’t. Was it pride? Why? It was part of the pandemic response plan that the US should have coordinated with the WHO. Why didn’t we?

completely unqualified people were put in charge of the response and we ended up with silly distractions like a non-existent website from a Google subsidiary. That website will be great in a few years. We don’t need it right now. We need more tests and a system put in place to test safely.

the majority of the actual response is coming from state and local health departments. That is how our public health works and this pandemic is showing the flaws in a decentralized public health system that relies on a fully privatized healthcare system. We can’t easily coordinate a cogent response to the virus. Some are doing drive through screenings. That is great. Others are telling people to go home and hope for the best.

As @TLS Guy has said, we don’t have the medical infrastructure to manage this. We don’t have enough doctors or nurses, enough hospital beds, or enough ventilators (critical for the treatment of patients). Trump told the Governor's to fend for themselves. Why? What are we going to do? Why aren’t we doing what Europe is doing and asking some of our manufacturing facilities to begin making ventilators. Ford is building ventilators for England.

Trump closed the boarders, but made exceptions. Why? Those exceptions can bring the virus here. It doesn’t matter that they are American. We should simply close the boarders and allow repatriotization through quarantine. But really, we shouldn’t close the boarders. WHO has noted that doing that doesn’t help. It simply makes it harder to track the virus. When we closed off travel from China, I stayed in a meeting that I didn’t think that was our biggest problem. That we were going to find community spread through unmonitored individuals who entered the country through other means. That’s what happened. Yes we needed to ask people to stop traveling, but we also needed to maintain a means to track and monitor travel. The best way to do that is not to close the boarders, which is the recommendation of pandemic response experts at the WHO.

Trump decimated funding to HHS while massively increasing spending to the military. This is the result. He disbanded a pandemic response team, one that could have managed this early on and hopefully prevented many of the missteps.

a true leader should accept that the buck stops with them. When asked if any of the problems where his fault, he said no. He deflected and blamed others. When a mistake happens in my company, on a project I manage, I fall on my sword. It’s my fault. It’s my bosses fault. That’s leadership. When I go into incident response meetings, I always say that the mistake happened because we created an environment that allowed that mistake to happen. That we need to change the culture and system that caused that.

that is my opinion.
Matthew, keep in mind you are debating someone who is probably not arguing in good faith there. This person isn't interested in learning anything, only in spreading far-right polemics. You could have a more meaningful exchange with Mr. Fluffles. However, if you are just looking to vent, then have at it.
 
Matthew J Poes

Matthew J Poes

Audioholic Chief
Staff member
Matthew, keep in mind you are debating someone who is probably not arguing in good faith there. This person isn't interested in learning anything, only in spreading far-right polemics. You could have a more meaningful exchange with Mr. Fluffles. However, if you are just looking to vent, then have at it.
James, Mr Fluff is a great orator and debator. I still have no retort to his earlier statement, “ruff.”
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
That was a cool trick... somehow attributing Ponzio's words to me. :)
It's OK, either way...
Except in the grand scheme of things none of us will be meeting in Hades... or any other place beginning with an H. :p

Perhaps it's always good to be hopeful. Rather than pushing up daisies, I'd like a nice Redwood or Cypress above me. :cool:
Well, I don't know what happened there.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
he is offering low interest loans for small businesses? That isn’t very helpful. These small businesses aren’t making any money right now, how are they going to pay off the loans?
Interestingly that small business umbrella covers surprisingly large companies that do not deserve it.;)

communication about the virus and how serious it is has been a joke. One that isn’t remotely funny. There has been misinformation and miscommunication. @JerryLove has already quoted Trump on the many nonsensical things he said. That was not helpful, Trump was being dangerous.
And how. I wonder how his hoax, Feb 28/9, that will go away in a few days is going for him.

The Single biggest screw up in the initial response to this was a failure to develop tests fast enough. Trump tried to blame Obama which was completely nonsensical.
And, trump had 3 years to fix things. No, build the wall, need money for it. Tax cut the the wealthy more important. Fire the agency that would have been a lookout for pandemics and be in charge from day 1. and on it goes.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I've tried to avoid politics, but here goes. I do not understand how anyone can put any faith in Trump's statements. Someone else has probably already posted this, but here it is again:

1584587095497.png


Does anyone seriously think the statement on February 24 that "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA." was accurate?

How many people bought stocks on February 24 based on his statement "Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"? On February 24 the Dow closed at 27,960.80. It closed at 18,898.92 today.

It doesn't really matter if your beliefs on any given issue are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between, it doesn't make Trump's words accurate.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I've tried to avoid politics, but here goes. I do not understand how anyone can put any faith in Trump's statements. Someone else has probably already posted this, but here it is again:

View attachment 34746

Does anyone seriously think the statement on February 24 that "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA." was accurate?

How many people bought stocks on February 24 based on his statement "Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"? On February 24 the Dow closed at 27,960.80. It closed at 18,898.92 today.

It doesn't really matter if your beliefs on any given issue are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between, it doesn't make Trump's words accurate.
The drumph's strong suit has never been the simple truth. Almost the opposite. Stable genius at work!
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I've tried to avoid politics, but here goes. I do not understand how anyone can put any faith in Trump's statements. Someone else has probably already posted this, but here it is again:

View attachment 34746

Does anyone seriously think the statement on February 24 that "The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA." was accurate?

How many people bought stocks on February 24 based on his statement "Stock Market starting to look very good to me!"? On February 24 the Dow closed at 27,960.80. It closed at 18,898.92 today.

It doesn't really matter if your beliefs on any given issue are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between, it doesn't make Trump's words accurate.
Well, if a reporter asks him about this statement, his response: I never said that, I didn't do that ;)
 
Timforhifi

Timforhifi

Full Audioholic
Interesting time we live in, no middle ground, just right or wrong.

I’m a registered Republican and I didn’t vote for trump and I never will. He’s been the worst president of my lifetime. Biden will win by a landslide now, but trump supporters will say otherwise.

can’t ever look up to a leader that plays the blame game. He’s a racist and doesn’t even know why, saying things like those people, or the Chinese virus, or the Kung flu.

needs to stop and I’m ready for my towns shelter in place. I’ll be working from home with my family of 6 and 3 dogs till whenever it gets better. I have food and supplies to last 30 days. Good luck to everyone and god bless.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
It doesn't really matter if your beliefs on any given issue are liberal, conservative, or somewhere in between, it doesn't make Trump's words accurate.
If you are in a cult, your leader can do no wrong. You can't reason with people who don't use reason to reach their conclusions to begin with. You can't cite facts to someone who rejects empirical reality.
 
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