In-wall rear surround recommendations

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
How do you think a PC2000 would blend in with my system? I have many places I could stick one!

I'm not going to be buying one anytime soon, but for curiosity and future's sake... ;)
Well the hard part is the phase response of both are different. Not sure how much though. Imo, since you have. Minidsp, and know what you’re doing, I’d say yes you can. Somewhere in the back of the room, tailored by the mini and audyssey and some finesse I think you can. If you look at my graph, that’s two PC12PLUSES and one psw505 in the rear left corne(think I shared that story? Lol).

I can share my settings with you but our rooms are probably not similar enough. Anyways, yes. I think you could do it. In fact, if I ever get done squirreling for my fv18’s, I’m gonna TRY to put the pc’s in the rear corners again and fv18’s up front.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Well the hard part is the phase response of both are different. Not sure how much though. Imo, since you have. Minidsp, and know what you’re doing, I’d say yes you can. Somewhere in the back of the room, tailored by the mini and audyssey and some finesse I think you can. If you look at my graph, that’s two PC12PLUSES and one psw505 in the rear left corne(think I shared that story? Lol).

I can share my settings with you but our rooms are probably not similar enough. Anyways, yes. I think you could do it. In fact, if I ever get done squirreling for my fv18’s, I’m gonna TRY to put the pc’s in the rear corners again and fv18’s up front.
Yeah, somewhere in the dining room behind me or maybe even beside/behind our couch. There's a little corner there where I could tuck a PC2000 and you wouldn't even know it was there. Would I have to high pass my HSUs or anything like that? Hmm... or high pass the PC instead. I like my subsonic capabilities. Even tho technically I can't hear it... lol

Now if I could get 2 of them... man oh man. I'm a dreamer. I really do think 2 would definitely be easier to blend in.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah, somewhere in the dining room behind me or maybe even beside/behind our couch. There's a little corner there where I could tuck a PC2000 and you wouldn't even know it was there. Would I have to high pass my HSUs or anything like that? Hmm... or high pass the PC instead. I like my subsonic capabilities. Even tho technically I can't hear it... lol

Now if I could get 2 of them... man oh man. I'm a dreamer. I really do think 2 would definitely be easier to blend in.
Yes! Yes, two would be easier to end in!

No. I wouldn’t high pass them. I would try to add the pc just by setting the spl and phase first. Then measure of course to see how bad it is lol. You’d still keep all your subsonic capabilities and likely add to them.
In the minidsp you can invert the phase of each individual sub while running the test tone. That should tell you where to set it. Or adjust it on the pc with the spl meter running.
Sorry, cooking supper! Can’t keep one thought in front of the next!!!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Yes! Yes, two would be easier to end in!

No. I wouldn’t high pass them. I would try to add the pc just by setting the spl and phase first. Then measure of course to see how bad it is lol. You’d still keep all your subsonic capabilities and likely add to them.
In the minidsp you can invert the phase of each individual sub while running the test tone. That should tell you where to set it. Or adjust it on the pc with the spl meter running.
Sorry, cooking supper! Can’t keep one thought in front of the next!!!
Phew. Okay, yeah. Sounds like some more homework is in order for me too before I tackle a project like that, tho 2 would be a lot easier. 2 PC 2000s to smooth everything out everywhere would be so sweet. I can easily squeeze 2 of them in here and both would be out of sight too, unless I want 'em to be seen!
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Phew. Okay, yeah. Sounds like some more homework is in order for me too before I tackle a project like that, tho 2 would be a lot easier. 2 PC 2000s to smooth everything out everywhere would be so sweet. I can easily squeeze 2 of them in here and both would be out of sight too, unless I want 'em to be seen!
Well, there’s always plants..... lol.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
Do you guys know if the older versions (non XT32) of Audyssey actually do any Sub EQ'ing or just delay and level? There is nowhere in my AVR menu to adjust an EQ for the sub, only the front left/right and center.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Do you guys know if the older versions (non XT32) of Audyssey actually do any Sub EQ'ing or just delay and level? There is nowhere in my AVR menu to adjust an EQ for the sub, only the front left/right and center.
Outside of the app and the Mini I don't have any eq options for my subs in the menus either and I have XT32.

They don't tell you a whole lot about exactly what's going on for eq'ing with Audyssey. Big secret stuff. Here's a short explanation from "ask Audyssey".

Been a while since I read this one, but you might find some answers in this interview with Chris K, head guru at Audyssey.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
Outside of the app and the Mini I don't have any eq options for my subs in the menus either and I have XT32.

They don't tell you a whole lot about exactly what's going on for eq'ing with Audyssey. Big secret stuff. Here's a short explanation from "ask Audyssey".

Been a while since I read this one, but you might find some answers in this interview with Chris K, head guru at Audyssey.
Thanks. I'll take a look.

FYI, for comparison sake, I connected just my Klipsch Sub-10 and ran Audyssey. I also moved the LP out from under the balcony. Audyssey set the sub level to -8.5dB (gain knob on sub is set to 50%). Can you reiterate why Audyssey is trimming my sub level nearly all the way if my sub is so insufficient? Is it more of a response thing at this point? The FR I am hearing is pretty flat as far as I can tell (hitting all the notes of "Last Kiss" by Pearl Jam).

I'm anxious to see what REW shows. Ordered a miniDSP 2x4 HD and Umik last night.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
Do you guys know if the older versions (non XT32) of Audyssey actually do any Sub EQ'ing or just delay and level? There is nowhere in my AVR menu to adjust an EQ for the sub, only the front left/right and center.
My older Onkyo had a manual option, but you have to turn audyssey off. IIRC it only goes down to 25hz too.

Older XT versions do EQ the subwoofer channel, but XT32 has higher resolution with more filters.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks. I'll take a look.

FYI, for comparison sake, I connected just my Klipsch Sub-10 and ran Audyssey. I also moved the LP out from under the balcony. Audyssey set the sub level to -8.5dB (gain knob on sub is set to 50%). Can you reiterate why Audyssey is trimming my sub level nearly all the way if my sub is so insufficient? Is it more of a response thing at this point? The FR I am hearing is pretty flat as far as I can tell (hitting all the notes of "Last Kiss" by Pearl Jam).

I'm anxious to see what REW shows. Ordered a miniDSP 2x4 HD and Umik last night.
50% is a little on the high side IME. You're getting enough volume for a trim setting but at what frequency and with how much distortion? You're definitely not getting anything at all under 35 or 40 hz.

That Klipsch sub isn't much more than a noisy boom box with a limited frequency band. I had a similar pair of ported 10" Klipsch subs too, before I got the SB1000s. I still have one right now in my office! Looking at specs they're virtually identical... I'm gonna say I'm very familiar with that particular sub and I know what it's capable of. In fact I am very familiar with both of your subwoofers because I've owned them both! You almost have as much space as I do too.

Going from a pair of Klipsch subs to the much cleaner sounding SVS subs really made it obvious I needed bigger subs. They played cleaner, but that also equated to less perceived output because the distortion was gone. Let that sink in- I never noticed any distortion until it was gone. LF distortion is subtle and can go undetected without a reference. I really thought something was wrong with the SB1000s at first.

I know that either of those subs are struggling to pressurize that space and the driver(s) has to be dancing pretty hard, regardless of what the trim setting is. My AVR set a generous trim too, when I had the gains turned to 9 o'clock. Even then they were still lacking to my ears, despite what my trim setting told me. There's a big difference between bass that's loud enough, and full, effortless bass that sounds good when it's loud enough. That's why I kept getting bigger subwoofers until I got it right.

In hindsight I could have skipped a couple of steps. I could have saved some money and been a lot happier a lot sooner if I'd just bought what was recommended to me in the first place. Some folks can be sooo stubborn tho... :rolleyes::rolleyes::p
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
50% is a little on the high side IME. You're getting enough volume for a trim setting but at what frequency and with how much distortion? You're definitely not getting anything at all under 35 or 40 hz.

That Klipsch sub isn't much more than a noisy boom box with a limited frequency band. I had a similar pair of ported 10" Klipsch subs too, before I got the SB1000s. I still have one right now in my office! Looking at specs they're virtually identical... I'm gonna say I'm very familiar with that particular sub and I know what it's capable of. In fact I am very familiar with both of your subwoofers because I've owned them both! You almost have as much space as I do too.

Going from a pair of Klipsch subs to the much cleaner sounding SVS subs really made it obvious I needed bigger subs. They played cleaner, but that also equated to less perceived output because the distortion was gone. Let that sink in- I never noticed any distortion until it was gone. LF distortion is subtle and can go undetected without a reference. I really thought something was wrong with the SB1000s at first.

I know that either of those subs are struggling to pressurize that space and the driver(s) has to be dancing pretty hard, regardless of what the trim setting is. My AVR set a generous trim too, when I had the gains turned to 9 o'clock. Even then they were still lacking to my ears, despite what my trim setting told me. There's a big difference between bass that's loud enough, and full, effortless bass that sounds good when it's loud enough. That's why I kept getting bigger subwoofers until I got it right.

In hindsight I could have skipped a couple of steps. I could have saved some money and been a lot happier a lot sooner if I'd just bought what was recommended to me in the first place. Some folks can be sooo stubborn tho... :rolleyes::rolleyes::p
I follow you. Thanks for the explanation.

Regarding the miniDSP, if a particular subwoofer had a built in DSP, would adding the miniDSP be redundant/unnecessary, or is REW and miniDSP more powerful than any built-in DSP on the market?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I follow you. Thanks for the explanation.

Regarding the miniDSP, if a particular subwoofer had a built in DSP, would adding the miniDSP be redundant/unnecessary, or is REW and miniDSP more powerful than any built-in DSP on the market?
That's a big fat "depends", lol. @shadyJ is a good guy to ask about that. I haven't had the opportunity to play with any subs that have built in peq capabilities.

*Tho I think the ones that have good peq built in are going to be on the pricier side.
 
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NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
The MiniDSP has 2x4 HD has 12 adjustable PEQ bands that you can use. I'm not aware of any reasonably priced sub with anywhere near that many bands of EQ that are user adjustable.

Audyssey XT32 has more bands of EQ in the usb region than the regular version of XT32. These bands are not available for you to tinker with in either version. The only real control you get with the sub through audyssey is it's overall trim level and distance setting. Just because Audyssey is setting your sub trim at -8.5 dB that doesn't mean it's enough for your room. It's setting it at 75db and in comparison to your other speakers. There's no way a single 10 inch Klipsch is filling that room to 105 dB without a lot of distortion. Before I built my sub I had a Deftech SC400 with an 8" driver, 2 8" passive radiators and a 1000 watt amp in an approxiamtely 3000^3 ft space.. Audyssey would set my trims low too, however, it was very noticeable to me that the sub was not happy at all with LFE content during movies and would make some very unhappy noises. I got a umik and measured it with REW to find out I had essentially no output under 30 Hz. You need to give up on this idea that the Klipsch is enough for your room just because of where Audyssey sets the trims.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
The MiniDSP has 2x4 HD has 12 adjustable PEQ bands that you can use. I'm not aware of any reasonably priced sub with anywhere near that many bands of EQ that are user adjustable.

Audyssey XT32 has more bands of EQ in the usb region than the regular version of XT32. These bands are not available for you to tinker with in either version. The only real control you get with the sub through audyssey is it's overall trim level and distance setting. Just because Audyssey is setting your sub trim at -8.5 dB that doesn't mean it's enough for your room. It's setting it at 75db and in comparison to your other speakers. There's no way a single 10 inch Klipsch is filling that room to 105 dB without a lot of distortion. Before I built my sub I had a Deftech SC400 with an 8" driver, 2 8" passive radiators and a 1000 watt amp in an approxiamtely 3000^3 ft space.. Audyssey would set my trims low too, however, it was very noticeable to me that the sub was not happy at all with LFE content during movies and would make some very unhappy noises. I got a umik and measured it with REW to find out I had essentially no output under 30 Hz. You need to give up on this idea that the Klipsch is enough for your room just because of where Audyssey sets the trims.
To be clear, I'm not implying it is enough for my space. I know it isn't. I'm simply experimenting with the two subs I have until I decide what to replace them with, and asking questions to gain a better understanding.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I'm comparing frequency response plots of a couple subs and the line-response of ome particular sub starts to roll off just before 100Hz, whereas the LFE-in response of the same sub doesn't roll off until 200 Hz. I'm confused by this. Why would the FR be different based on what input is used? Did they boost the test signal in the upper range to show the sub can play higher when viewing movie content? If so, does this mean the line-in response would be the typical FR when listening to music? As long as the upper roll-off freq of the sub is at or above what you expect to set your xover of your mains to, I'm guessing that is what is important . I also read the dB/octave makes a difference as to how well the sub blends with the mains. Does the miniDSP allow you to switch between 12dB/octave and 24dB/octave?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm comparing frequency response plots of a couple subs and the line-response of ome particular sub starts to roll off just before 100Hz, whereas the LFE-in response of the same sub doesn't roll off until 200 Hz. I'm confused by this. Why would the FR be different based on what input is used? Did they boost the test signal in the upper range to show the sub can play higher when viewing movie content? If so, does this mean the line-in response would be the typical FR when listening to music? As long as the upper roll-off freq of the sub is at or above what you expect to set your xover of your mains to, I'm guessing that is what is important . I also read the dB/octave makes a difference as to how well the sub blends with the mains. Does the miniDSP allow you to switch between 12dB/octave and 24dB/octave?
If you are talking about the discussion of the Rythmik subs, the only people who could tell you why they have their performance targets is Rythmik. There seems to be some filter on all of the inputs except on the LFE in. The absence of the filter in the LFE makes sense since that is where it is expected that the crossover would occur in an outboard processor rather than the sub.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I'm comparing frequency response plots of a couple subs and the line-response of ome particular sub starts to roll off just before 100Hz, whereas the LFE-in response of the same sub doesn't roll off until 200 Hz. I'm confused by this. Why would the FR be different based on what input is used? Did they boost the test signal in the upper range to show the sub can play higher when viewing movie content? If so, does this mean the line-in response would be the typical FR when listening to music? As long as the upper roll-off freq of the sub is at or above what you expect to set your xover of your mains to, I'm guessing that is what is important . I also read the dB/octave makes a difference as to how well the sub blends with the mains. Does the miniDSP allow you to switch between 12dB/octave and 24dB/octave?
I am not following what you mean at the top of your paragraph.

The reason audyssey set your sub to -8.5 is because the gain was too high on the sub. Pogre covered that when he said 50% was too high. Subs usually end up at about 1/3 of the gain and the trim I personally go for is usually -5. You never want to be in the +.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I am not following what you mean at the top of your paragraph.

The reason audyssey set your sub to -8.5 is because the gain was too high on the sub. Pogre covered that when he said 50% was too high. Subs usually end up at about 1/3 of the gain and the trim I personally go for is usually -5. You never want to be in the +.
I was making a guess as to why the FR plots are different between line in and LFE in. I read that the LFE frequencies in movies are boosted by 6dB which is why I am thinking the LFE FR they show is flat out to about 200Hz whereas the line-in only went to 100Hz. Except if you set your receiver to LFE, then I'm confused as to why the input you use on your sub would matter.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I was making a guess as to why the FR plots are different between line in and LFE in. I read that the LFE frequencies in movies are boosted by 6dB which is why I am thinking the LFE FR they show is flat out to about 200Hz whereas the line-in only went to 100Hz. Except if you set your receiver to LFE, then I'm confused as to why the input you use on your sub would matter.
Probably like I THINK shady was saying(not speaking for him) is subs usually have two inputs. One allows for the AVR to handle bass management by itself. The other allows you to use the “XO”(actually low pass filter) on the subwoofer.

Lfe tracks are 10db hotter but that’s only relative to the mix. Doesn’t matter, or affect sweeps.
 
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