In-wall rear surround recommendations

ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I also need to take into consideration that if I go with the L22 and decide to get a second, is four 12's going to be overkill? I'm thinking it will be. So this has me leaning towards two separate 15's again. Ugh!
The Co-Location of multiple drivers will increase output, but that is still dependent on how you adjust the gain as you set up your system. My subs are, technically, grossly overpowered for my room. I don’t turn on my system though to thunderous bass because they are still only outputting about 70-73dB each at my LP (when I don’t have them trimmed down more still, that is).
It is far preferable to have the headroom in your system so it can handle dynamic peaks while still performing well within their comfort zone. ;)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I also need to take into consideration that if I go with the L22 and decide to get a second, is four 12's going to be overkill? I'm thinking it will be. So this has me leaning towards two separate 15's again. Ugh!
4 12-inch Subs would definitely not be overkill and might work out pretty well, but you are so hung up on box size with a single sub I never would have thought to suggest it.

4 sealed 15s would definitely get you bumping though!
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
4 12-inch Subs would definitely not be overkill and might work out pretty well, but you are so hung up on box size with a single sub I never would have thought to suggest it.

4 sealed 15s would definitely get you bumping though!
Or get 2 18's! But I feel like you'll flat out say no to something that size as well.
 
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snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
4 12-inch Subs would definitely not be overkill and might work out pretty well, but you are so hung up on box size with a single sub I never would have thought to suggest it.

4 sealed 15s would definitely get you bumping though!
He means two of the Rythmik L22 subs which each have dual 12in drivers.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
The Co-Location of multiple drivers will increase output, but that is still dependent on how you adjust the gain as you set up your system. My subs are, technically, grossly overpowered for my room. I don’t turn on my system though to thunderous bass because they are still only outputting about 70-73dB each at my LP (when I don’t have them trimmed down more still, that is).
It is far preferable to have the headroom in your system so it can handle dynamic peaks while still performing well within their comfort zone. ;)
And that's the thing. People talk about driver size and worry about overkill or overpowering speakers. Only if you set it up that way. Get your games and your trim levels set correctly and everything should blend and be balanced no matter what size or how much power your sub has.

A subwoofer that isn't working hard, or is basically loafing is going to be playing very clean. Plus there's plenty of headroom to cover those big dynamic peaks.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
And that's the thing. People talk about driver size and worry about overkill or overpowering speakers. Only if you set it up that way. Get your games and your trim levels set correctly and everything should blend and be balanced no matter what size or how much power your sub has.

A subwoofer that isn't working hard, or is basically loafing is going to be playing very clean. Plus there's plenty of headroom to cover those big dynamic peaks.
Okay, I think I've pretty much made up my mind that I'd like to try the L22. One for now and likely a second later. I'll mock up a couple cardboard box representations of the L22 tonight and let them sit in my living room over the weekend to see if I can live with it.

FYI...

L22Dimensions.jpg
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, I think I've pretty much made up my mind that I'd like to try the L22. One for now and likely a second later. I'll mock up a couple cardboard box representations of the L22 tonight and let them sit in my living room over the weekend to see if I can live with it.
I don't think you are going to notice much with a single one of those. Definitely will need at least two, that's not a maybe either. You are still aiming too low, too small and underpowered. Three or four of those might work though...
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Every time we seem to get you steered in a good direction you suddenly come in and post something that just completely dismisses everything we've discussed up to that point, lol. Is this a test? You're testing us, aren't you?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Two X-13s would handle that room. Ported 13.5”, THX certified. :D

*no shame
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
Every time we seem to get you steered in a good direction you suddenly come in and post something that just completely dismisses everything we've discussed up to that point, lol. Is this a test? You're testing us, aren't you?
So if one of the subs is his end table for example, it would have near field effect. That might help a lot.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I don't think you are going to notice much with a single one of those. Definitely will need at least two, that's not a maybe either. You are still aiming too low, too small and underpowered. Three or four of those might work though...
The dual 12's have 1.3 times more surface area than a single 15" though, so wouldn't four 12's be better than two 15's? I understand and agree with everyone's recommendations, but I need to compromise on footprint so I'm trying to find a happy medium. Why was two PC2000 recommended (two ported 12's) but four sealed 12's is not?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
The dual 12's have 1.3 times more surface area than a single 15" though, so wouldn't four 12's be better than two 15's? I understand and agree with everyone's recommendations, but I need to compromise on footprint so I'm trying to find a happy medium. Why was two PC2000 recommended (two ported 12's) but four sealed 12's is not?
I've heard, mind, that the L series Rythmik sells is also underpowered compared to many other options. This is why you might see us recommend Hsu as the value leader... Bang-for-the-buck... ;) Nothing else matches their performance level at their cost. When you step up to the next level higher, you are looking at Fit and Finish improvements over what Hsu might offer, I think.
As you move up the Rythmik ladder, you find Aluminum cones and higher powered amps. These undoubtedly perform better than the Paper options.
Another aspect to consider is that not all drivers are equal. The cone material is one thing, and then there is the Motor. A well designed motor can make a significant difference in the cost... AND the performance of the driver. Power handling and mechanical travel distance are just two aspects that are more easily understood. The compliance of the driver gets a little more difficult, but is equally important.
Stacking two of those 12" paper cones as Rythmik has increases output and it will likely perform slightly better in your room than even a single better 12" driver from its output potential alone. But...
I would not favor that sub, however, to hold up to a better designed product in terms of all other aspects. (I do consider the PC2000 to be a better designed product, just based my research.)
Back to your question, surface area will move air, but to what effect if the cones and motor structure start to fail at lower SPL and Frequency. This is a hypothetical: I have not seen a review for the Rythmik paper cones that I can recall. I cannot predict its overall performance. I have, however, been cautioned about going in that direction when I had hoped to save some coin.
Beyond that, as intriguing as the Servo technology is... why do more companies not pursue it? Cost? Production complications? Implementation? Efficacy?

I found Sub shopping to be about balancing tradeoffs. I required extension for Pipe Organ... 16Hz. That requires something different than somebody just wanting to enjoy HT on the weekend vs a power user vs an audio head...

I believe that finding the best sub at producing high quality SOUND across the spectrum, which will meet the need of SPL and extension is the first step. If the aesthetics are a concern then they come third after making certain the Amp will work in your system (which includes all connectivity and UI aspects of the Amp)!
That's me.
A good driver will perform well for both HT and Music. A well designed and built Sub will do the same.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
The drivers and motors in the HSU subs like ULS15 are nice. Think I’ve recommended a pair a few times already on this thread. :)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
The dual 12's have 1.3 times more surface area than a single 15" though, so wouldn't four 12's be better than two 15's? I understand and agree with everyone's recommendations, but I need to compromise on footprint so I'm trying to find a happy medium. Why was two PC2000 recommended (two ported 12's) but four sealed 12's is not?
I think partly because it can take as many as 4 sealed subs to equal the output of a comparable ported one below about 35-40hz. So theoretically 2 L22would equal a PC2k below about 40hz. I say theoretically because I can’t find 3rd party numbers on the L22, but this is on their site.


So here’s the rub. The L22 will destroy your sb1k, and sound better doing it. I personally think the L22 might work for YOU, BUT, I think you’ll need some way to tame the peak that’s at your LP. I’m sure that’s why it seems like you have so much bass. Have you ever looked at FR curves before? Just getting a gage of aptitude(no offense).
FWIW, I’ve started my squirrel fund for a pair of fv18’s.
Now I gotta read the rest of this thread. You guys got bizzay!!!!!
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
I think partly because it can take as many as 4 sealed subs to equal the output of a comparable ported one below about 35-40hz. So theoretically 2 L22would equal a PC2k below about 40hz. I say theoretically because I can’t find 3rd party numbers on the L22, but this is on their site.


So here’s the rub. The L22 will destroy your sb1k, and sound better doing it. I personally think the L22 might work for YOU, BUT, I think you’ll need some way to tame the peak that’s at your LP. I’m sure that’s why it seems like you have so much bass. Have you ever looked at FR curves before? Just getting a gage of aptitude(no offense).
FWIW, I’ve started my squirrel fund for a pair of fv18’s.
Now I gotta read the rest of this thread. You guys got bizzay!!!!!
I agree it would be nice to tame the peak I am experiencing, and yes, I'm an electrical engineer, so I've read many of frequency plots. I would be willing to invest in some equipment to measure the room acoustics and tune the subs accordingly.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
I agree it would be nice to tame the peak I am experiencing, and yes, I'm an electrical engineer, so I've read many of frequency plots. I would be willing to invest in some equipment to measure the room acoustics and tune the subs accordingly.
Ah ha!!!!!! You’ve been testing us the whole time!!! Lol

Umik-1 sub microphone, and a free copy of REW from AV Nirvana.
 
mossman77

mossman77

Full Audioholic
Ah ha!!!!!! You’ve been testing us the whole time!!! Lol

Umik-1 sub microphone, and a free copy of REW from AV Nirvana.
Cool. I'll pick one up. Once I have a plot of the room, how do I attenuate peaks in the response if the sub doesn't have an adjustable parametric equalizer? Do they make external ones that can be connected in line with the receiver/sub?
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
Cool. I'll pick one up. Once I have a plot of the room, how do I attenuate peaks in the response if the sub doesn't have an adjustable parametric equalizer? Do they make external ones that can be connected in line with the receiver/sub?
You'd need a mini-dsp in order to make adjustments between the receiver and sub
 
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