Do you think it's worth going with a separate AV Processor?

[ryanosaur]

This entire saga has been a trip.

Kudos to any who have entered the Emo-Den and ASR for any of this.
I've been keeping pace over at AVS on the HTP-1 site. (Sorta ground-zero, in a way... or just to tease our friend @Swerd, the epicenter! )

If I were to decide to buy today, I would have no concern buying the HTP-1. I think it is still a slightly flawed but highly acceptable option. For those bold enough to jump into the early adopter fold with it, only the quirkiest of power users seem to be truly displeased. That said, many of the power users posting on AVS seem to be content with it and are stoked at the direct involvement of both Monoprice and Dirac in the forum thread. Likewise, most are grateful for the prompt and so far frequent updates being issued to address the bugs that are coming up.
Its been noted there that the unit seems destined for an upgrade considering the layout and build. Whether accurate or not, likely or un-, a couple of the cats seem to have spotted potential for a more upscale build that might allow for expansion slots a la the rmc-1.
End of the day... who knows? (I'm not holding my breath.)
But for anybody looking for Dirac and the potential to run 7.3.6 (once Dirac BM is ready (in-hand and being tested at Monoprice/ATI for implementation)) then this is easily the best option. Certainly there are other ways around to get there, but to what end? The MDSP DDRC88A-BM? 'Need two of those to implement Dirac on a full 16-channel system, along with a 13.2 channel AVP or AVR...so take a $4000 piece of equipment and add another $2K, and then learn how to integrate everything through the MDSP unit... Sounds like a full time job.

Is it right, in the sense of Business Ethics, to use the first production run for sale as an extended Beta Test?
(This is something that has come up in several different places now, in some form of the question, and I think it is worth a deeper look! Perhaps there is a future article from team AH to look at this as is seems to be a part of the life cycke of gear these days. @gene @Wayde Robson ???)
I don't think this is unique to our hobby. Look at the Smart Phone market for plenty of examples of imperfect product being released into the wild. Sometimes it gets fixed. And this is the risk of being an early adopter. As an educated consumer, I know fully that I am taking a risk if I jump on that train. To not know this in our time is truly naive.

As I'm not an engineer, it is difficult for me to lend much to the conversation about the measurements. I will say that I think it should make sense to any company in the audio field to consider that any bad press can be a killer. Should Amir have decapitated the Pink Panther for the HTP-1? No. Should ATI/Monoprice have looked ahead more closely at what any test bench might have uncovered about the product and been ready for it? Yes. Is there a lot of middle ground at play? Absolutely.
Just as I would hope more speaker manufacturers would submit their gear to a lab for more rigorous testing in line with the NRC, I think it is reasonable for the other manufacturers to spend a little more time making certain that the promises measure up with reality. If it is tailoring the gear to perform well on the AH and ASR test bench, that seems like a win to any of us that are in the hobby. It doesn't seem like any engineering team worth their salt couldn't (or wouldn't) perform these tests while still building the prototype.

 

[Danzilla31]

This entire saga has been a trip.

Kudos to any who have entered the Emo-Den and ASR for any of this.
I've been keeping pace over at AVS on the HTP-1 site. (Sorta ground-zero, in a way... or just to tease our friend @Swerd, the epicenter! )

If I were to decide to buy today, I would have no concern buying the HTP-1. I think it is still a slightly flawed but highly acceptable option. For those bold enough to jump into the early adopter fold with it, only the quirkiest of power users seem to be truly displeased. That said, many of the power users posting on AVS seem to be content with it and are stoked at the direct involvement of both Monoprice and Dirac in the forum thread. Likewise, most are grateful for the prompt and so far frequent updates being issued to address the bugs that are coming up.
Its been noted there that the unit seems destined for an upgrade considering the layout and build. Whether accurate or not, likely or un-, a couple of the cats seem to have spotted potential for a more upscale build that might allow for expansion slots a la the rmc-1.
End of the day... who knows? (I'm not holding my breath.)
But for anybody looking for Dirac and the potential to run 7.3.6 (once Dirac BM is ready (in-hand and being tested at Monoprice/ATI for implementation)) then this is easily the best option. Certainly there are other ways around to get there, but to what end? The MDSP DDRC88A-BM? 'Need two of those to implement Dirac on a full 16-channel system, along with a 13.2 channel AVP or AVR...so take a $4000 piece of equipment and add another $2K, and then learn how to integrate everything through the MDSP unit... Sounds like a full time job.

Is it right, in the sense of Business Ethics, to use the first production run for sale as an extended Beta Test?
(This is something that has come up in several different places now, in some form of the question, and I think it is worth a deeper look! Perhaps there is a future article from team AH to look at this as is seems to be a part of the life cycke of gear these days. @gene @Wayde Robson ???)
I don't think this is unique to our hobby. Look at the Smart Phone market for plenty of examples of imperfect product being released into the wild. Sometimes it gets fixed. And this is the risk of being an early adopter. As an educated consumer, I know fully that I am taking a risk if I jump on that train. To not know this in our time is truly naive.

As I'm not an engineer, it is difficult for me to lend much to the conversation about the measurements. I will say that I think it should make sense to any company in the audio field to consider that any bad press can be a killer. Should Amir have decapitated the Pink Panther for the HTP-1? No. Should ATI/Monoprice have looked ahead more closely at what any test bench might have uncovered about the product and been ready for it? Yes. Is there a lot of middle ground at play? Absolutely.
Just as I would hope more speaker manufacturers would submit their gear to a lab for more rigorous testing in line with the NRC, I think it is reasonable for the other manufacturers to spend a little more time making certain that the promises measure up with reality. If it is tailoring the gear to perform well on the AH and ASR test bench, that seems like a win to any of us that are in the hobby. It doesn't seem like any engineering team worth their salt couldn't (or wouldn't) perform these tests while still building the prototype.

That was very well put Ryan stated much more eloquently then I've been expressing it thank you for that

One thing I want to add onto that is home theater for most of us is a dream come true. Processors of this type are not being built for the average home environment were talking dedicated home theater environments

Its been a dream of mine to build one and it's finally come true for many this is a long term dream finally come to fruition. It's one thing to be a beta tester or early adopter on a phone it's another to do it for such an important peice of equipment for something so important to us for that much money

It would be different of they advertised these as early prototypes or early productions but they don't do that. You read the advertisement promising you the moon and back and then you get it and it's not even functional really. What they imply and what they deliver are 2 different things. I can't swallow that for that kind of money I just can't

I don't think anybody in there right mind buys something like this expecting it to be that much hassle to get it operational

I really like your idea of an article on this and I hope Audioholics pursues one I definetly think it would bring a lot of interesting dialogue for sure on a topic such as this one

I also agree with you on that the Monoprice is the best one to get right now it's the leader of the pack

Who would thought back in the day they'd come so far? Kudos to them for getting to where they are at today

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Isn’t your house only a few years old?

Yes. 3YR. This stupid GE range is only 3YR old. And the burner already burned out twice in 3YR! That annoys the heck out of me!

So now I'm trying a Samsung. According to some online reviews, Samsung ranges are supposed to be more reliable than GE. But this time, I'm also getting the $160 5YR Protection Plan. Maybe now it will last 20YR since I bought the extended warranty.

 

[Gmoney]

Yes. 3YR. This stupid GE range is only 3YR old. And the burner already burned out twice in 3YR! That annoys the heck out of me!

So now I'm trying a Samsung. According to some online reviews, Samsung ranges are supposed to be more reliable than GE. But this time, I'm also getting the $160 5YR Protection Plan. Maybe now it will last 20YR since I bought the extended warranty.

Andrew, just picking at ya brother about the Breaking Bad, Walter White thing. But when you sent me that photo of you with that Mask and Shield on
I have to say it made me think of when Walter White was cooking meth.

You still have some Denon AVR’s in your home

 

[PENG]

Can you believe that? Costs 3 times more than the Samsung Electric Range I just ordered to replace my GE. I bet my Samsung range will have less bugs. Haha.

When I replaced the one ring on my Kitchen Aid (flagship model), it was over 10 years old so it did last longer than your Denon AVP.

 

[Danzilla31]

It is not possible to compare numbers from different test benches because while they may use the same AP tester but they tend to use their own standards in terms of input level, output level, test frequencies, among other things. I tried my best and developed a preliminary comparison spreadsheet that has 32 columns already and I am not done yet.

Below is just a small part of the spreadsheet. It is very preliminary and may not be 100% accurately so please visit the website to confirm the numbers yourself.

Pre out/Power amp out		Pre out THD+N 1 kHz	Pre out THD+N 1 kHz
Input		Coax (lower voltage)	HDMI (bal: 4V, unbal: 2V)
SMPTE/DIN (dB) Gen level (dBFS)
Measured by	DUT
AH (audioholics.com)	CX-A5100
AH	CX-A5200		0.0025 (2V RCA)/0.002-0.003 (4V XLR)
AH	AVR-X3300W
ASR (audiosciencereview.com)	AV7705	0.002360/0.002477 (2.348/2.358V XLR)	0.017506/0.019131 (3.943/3.955V)
ASR	AV8805		0.002572/0.002483 (4.13/4.135V)
ASR	NAD M17 V2		0.001574/0.001527 (3.961/4.010V)
ASR	AVR-X3500H	0.001739/0.001714 (1-1.2V)	0.020784/0.021585 (1.992/1.991V)
ASR	RX-A1080		0.004672/0.005805 (1.957/1.964V)
HTHF (hometheaterhifi.com)	AV8805		0.002576/0.002796 (1 kHz/10 kHz)
HTHF	AV8802A		0.002056/0.003578 (5V/4.95V, 1 kHz/10 kHz)
HTHF	AVM60		0.001285 (4.03V XLR)
S&V (soundandvision.com)	AV8802A

Thank you for doing this!

 

[PENG]

I don't know of any other 3rd party who has measured the AV8805. But S&V measured the AV8802, and it seems to have SOTA measurements.

@PENG can elaborate on the AV8802 measurements, but I think S&V measured SNR at 130.38dB, Crosstalk 92.21 dB, THD+N 0.008%, FR 20Hz-20kHz @ -0.04dB/-0.01dB. Are these NOT SOTA numbers?

But I also assumed the AV8805 would measure as well as the AV8802. I could be wrong.

It is not possible to compare numbers from different test benches because while they may use the same AP tester but they tend to use their own standards in terms of input level, output level, test frequencies, among other things. I tried my best and developed a preliminary comparison spreadsheet that has 32 columns already and I am not done yet.

Below is just a small part of the spreadsheet. It is very preliminary and may not be 100% accurately so please visit the website to confirm the numbers yourself.

From what I can see, the CX-A5100/5200, AV8805, AVM60, AV8802A practically have the same THD+N specs, but the AVR-X3500H and RX-A1080 are not far behind in terms of audibility, if used within their comfort zone (output voltage). The AVM60 looks the best at lower output and 1 kHz using XLR but not so good at higher output and 10 kHz, and/or RCAs, whereas the Yamaha and Marantz seem less sensitive to frequencies and voltage level, or RCA vs XLR. In fact the Denon sometimes did better with RCAs.

Edit: attached should be more accurate as I proof read it, and added the analog input columns. The big picture doesn't change. Hard to justify AVP/Cs based on specs and measurements, in terms of whether the slightly better measurements of the "separates" are audible.

 

[Pogre]

Irv, I believe ADTG cooked a Lot of popcorn on his stove. So his stove is like 3 years old or maybe Andrew is really Breaking Bad, like that dude Walter White. ADTG is a Pharmacist after all.

Heisentech...

 

[Irvrobinson]

It is not possible to compare numbers from different test benches because while they may use the same AP tester but they tend to use their own standards in terms of input level, output level, test frequencies, among other things.

I agree that the measurements can't be directly compared unless all parameters are equal, but looking at both columns of measurements only the X3500H and the AV7705 are even slightly less than excellent. And those two are still at least good. I think the real factor is that Amir does not recognize "good enough", he's only interested in best engineering execution. He talks about features and ergonomics, but in the end he's judging products on measurements relative to the best he's measured.

 

[Gmoney]

Heisentech...

Pogre, Andrew must be busy at the Hospital I’m going text him see if he sleeping in his office.

 

[Pogre]

I'm still reading through that thread and man, the snark and douchebaggery... Those guys don't like to be told their $5000 processor can't outperform a typical AVR. No respect for science at all. I just got past Emo's posted results that don't quite match Amir's and questioning his method. There are still a couple more pages for me to catch up to. I have a feeling some of the juicier bits are yet to come.

I got all caught up and followed a link to the other thread where the discussion continued. A little anticlimactic to be honest, but there are a couple of opinionated persons who posted in both threads that I think should be eating a little crow right now. To me this whole thing just confirms my views on strict subjectivists. Even when presented with proof that there was indeed an issue it's dismissed, Amirm doesn't know poop and has an army of trolls...

How about "Oh damn. He was right. There was an issue. Thank you Amirm!".

 

[Pogre]

I agree that the measurements can't be directly compared unless all parameters are equal, but looking at both columns of measurements only the X3500H and the AV7705 are even slightly less than excellent. And those two are still at least good. I think the real factor is that Amir does not recognize "good enough", he's only interested in best engineering execution. He talks about features and ergonomics, but in the end he's judging products on measurements relative to the best he's measured.

I think Amirm is providing a great service, but uses way too much hyperbole in his comments and is overly harsh.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I think Amirm is providing a great service, but uses way too much hyperbole in his comments and is overly harsh.

We are so lucky no one on AH is like that!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

When I replaced the one ring on my Kitchen Aid (flagship model), it was over 10 years old so it did last longer than your Denon AVP.

Had to bring back my Denon AVP-A1HDCI!

At least it lasted longer than my GE range, which broke the 1st time after just one year.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is not possible to compare numbers from different test benches because while they may use the same AP tester but they tend to use their own standards in terms of input level, output level, test frequencies, among other things. I tried my best and developed a preliminary comparison spreadsheet that has 32 columns already and I am not done yet.

Below is just a small part of the spreadsheet. It is very preliminary and may not be 100% accurately so please visit the website to confirm the numbers yourself.

From what I can see, the CX-A5100/5200, AV8805, AVM60, AV8802A practically have the same THD+N specs, but the AVR-X3500H and RX-A1080 are not far behind in terms of audibility, if used within their comfort zone (output voltage). The AVM60 looks the best at lower output and 1 kHz using XLR but not so good at higher output and 10 kHz, and/or RCAs, whereas the Yamaha and Marantz seem less sensitive to frequencies and voltage level, or RCA vs XLR. In fact the Denon sometimes did better with RCAs.

View attachment 34317

Next question: in order to qualify as SOTA, does the THD need to be 0.00xx % instead of 0.0xx % ?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Next question: in order to qualify as SOTA, does the THD need to be 0.00xx % instead of 0.0xx % ?

Come on, Andy, you're a scientist. You know that a device can't be state of the art if a similar device has measurements an order of magnitude better. If the difference audible? Maybe not, but that's not relevant for measurements.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Come on, Andy, you're a scientist. You know that a device can't be state of the art if a similar device has measurements an order of magnitude better. If the difference audible? Maybe not, but that's not relevant for measurements.

Fair enough.

0.002x % THD then.

So that's done.

What's next? How high does SINAD need to be? 102dB or 100dB at 2.7V to be SOTA?

Basically, I would like to know Amir's definition of SOTA for AVP and AVR in terms of his measurements.

After SINAD, then what's next?

I think non-engineering/high-tech people would like to know what numbers we need to reach to achieve SOTA.

 

[Swerd]

I think the real factor is that Amir does not recognize "good enough", he's only interested in best engineering execution. He talks about features and ergonomics, but in the end he's judging products on measurements relative to the best he's measured.

Thanks for pointing that out. In my opinion, 'good enough' at an affordable price beats the 'best engineering execution' at any price. As always, others may have different opinions.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think Amirm is providing a great service, but uses way too much hyperbole in his comments and is overly harsh.

Yeah, he needs to be more neutral in his subjective comments and try to be as objective as possible.

The nexus (my new word to use since "Salient" has been used quite often ) is SOTA audio performance.

He needs to define his measurement goals/targets for SOTA status? What are we aiming for in the measurements?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Thanks for pointing that out. In my opinion, 'good enough' at an affordable price beats the 'best engineering execution' at any price. As always, others may have different opinions.

Amir does take price into account in his judgments, but he does seem to get impatient when a $25 dongle measures decibels better than a multi-thousand dollar pre-pro or AVR.