Do you think it's worth going with a separate AV Processor?

thrillcat

thrillcat

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for pointing that out. In my opinion, 'good enough' at an affordable price beats the 'best engineering execution' at any price. As always, others may have different opinions.
Why is seemingly nobody but me able to look at his table of measurements between models, factor in the devices I’ve heard with my ears, and use that information to place a “Good Enough” threshold, respecting the fact that Amirm tests consistently from device to device?

When I read a review in a magazine or on a website, I am intelligent enough to take it all as a point of reference, not as gospel.

Believe it or not, I could give two shits if a review says a product “lifted a veil” off the speakers.

I want to read about features. Usability, and if their testing revealed any flaws or usability issues. If a reviewer has a track record of liking products I’ve found that I also like, I might weigh their opinion more heavily than someone who loves the new Acoustimass system they just put in the rec room.

Someone like Amirm measures factors that are way above my pay grade, and likely has a way higher threshold for “Good Enough” than I. But he does identical testing from item to item, and those items are capable of affecting overall sound, they speak toward overall care and precision involved, so I am comfortable accepting his measurement rankings for what they are - a factor in my decisions.

I am not one to base a purchase/non-purchase on a single review. I hope none of you are either. And I’m much less likely to base a purchase/non-purchase on his measurements than I am on a company’s reaction to them.

Emo’s childish, insecure and defensive reaction, coupled with the fact that I recently replaced the higher-performing XMC1 is likely to mean I’m done with the company for good, even if they do immediately issue a firmware update that fixes one (of several) issues uncovered by Amirm’s testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I agree that the measurements can't be directly compared unless all parameters are equal, but looking at both columns of measurements only the X3500H and the AV7705 are even slightly less than excellent. And those two are still at least good. I think the real factor is that Amir does not recognize "good enough", he's only interested in best engineering execution. He talks about features and ergonomics, but in the end he's judging products on measurements relative to the best he's measured.
Agreed, but at least in most cases he would say something about audibility. Iirc, Gene said the same about the higher THD for the front channels xlr output, that it was below the audible level.

Next question: in order to qualify as SOTA, does the THD need to be 0.00xx % instead of 0.0xx % ? :D
When I get home I will post another little chunk of my table.
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Can you believe that? Costs 3 times more than the Samsung Electric Range I just ordered to replace my GE. I bet my Samsung range will have less bugs. Haha. :D
Weird thing is GE gets VERY high marks in reliability. Guess not.

Don't you have another kitchen you could use? :)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
Yes. 3YR. This stupid GE range is only 3YR old. And the burner already burned out twice in 3YR! That annoys the heck out of me! :mad:

So now I'm trying a Samsung. According to some online reviews, Samsung ranges are supposed to be more reliable than GE. But this time, I'm also getting the $160 5YR Protection Plan. Maybe now it will last 20YR since I bought the extended warranty. :D
I'm an idiot for not doing that with my Kitchen Aid. 3yr warranty is like $85. But, now that I have a home warranty it'll only cost me $120 to either fix or replace it. What sucks is I can't find one anywhere that's as good as what I have.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic General
Why is seemingly nobody but me able to look at his table of measurements between models, factor in the devices I’ve heard with my ears, and use that information to place a “Good Enough” threshold, respecting the fact that Amirm tests consistently from device to device?

When I read a review in a magazine or on a website, I am intelligent enough to take it all as a point of reference, not as gospel.

Believe it or not, I could give two shits if a review says a product “lifted a veil” off the speakers.

I want to read about features. Usability, and if their testing revealed any flaws or usability issues. If a reviewer has a track record of liking products I’ve found that I also like, I might weigh their opinion more heavily than someone who loves the new Acoustimass system they just put in the rec room.

Someone like Amirm measures factors that are way above my pay grade, and likely has a way higher threshold for “Good Enough” than I. But he does identical testing from item to item, and those items are capable of affecting overall sound, they speak toward overall care and precision involved, so I am comfortable accepting his measurement rankings for what they are - a factor in my decisions.

I am not one to base a purchase/non-purchase on a single review. I hope none of you are either. And I’m much less likely to base a purchase/non-purchase on his measurements than I am on a company’s reaction to them.

Emo’s childish, insecure and defensive reaction, coupled with the fact that I recently replaced the higher-performing XMC1 is likely to mean I’m done with the company for good, even if they do immediately issue a firmware update that fixes one (of several) issues uncovered by Amirm’s testing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well said, Yeah EMO thinks their changing the way people think of high-end audio, sad though it seems they are hurting themselves more than they know with the Sh!ty way they handle issues.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I'm an idiot for not doing that with my Kitchen Aid. 3yr warranty is like $85. But, now that I have a home warranty it'll only cost me $120 to either fix or replace it. What sucks is I can't find one anywhere that's as good as what I have.
How much is the home warranty per year?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Found what Gene said, in his CX-A5200 review:


"At 4Vrms out, 3rd order rose substantially to -76dB (though still inaudible at 0.015%). "

So that's not much different than Amir's, that he would highlight the sub 80 SINAD while reminding us that it would still be inaudible. Note that the -76 dB was for the 3rd Harmonics only. The actual SINAD (THD+N) would have been worse, may be as high as -73 dB?. Obviously while pointing out both sides of the equation, Gene did it in a much more tactful manner.:D
 
AVUser001

AVUser001

Full Audioholic
Fair enough. :D

0.002x % THD then.

So that's done.

What's next? How high does SINAD need to be? 102dB or 100dB at 2.7V to be SOTA?

Basically, I would like to know Amir's definition of SOTA for AVP and AVR in terms of his measurements.

After SINAD, then what's next?

I think non-engineering/high-tech people would like to know what numbers we need to reach to achieve SOTA.
I find this quantification , on ASR, of SINAD & THD+N , ... along wth his notes at the bottom ;-)

"Please don't look at this graph too accurately. Small differences are not material and results vary slightly from test to test. Generally look to see what bucket the DAC falls in (color coded in the chart for easy reference: blue = best; red = worst). "

1582922381374.png


So anything Green(and upper yellow) & above should be safe. Do we have to define the absolute SOTA? , when the measuring guy says dont look at the numbers too accurately ;-)?

And there's another note on ASR
"Finally, please don’t take the measured values too seriously. It should also be clear that these comparison charts are more for convenience and should not serve as a buyer's guide. As @amirm and others have shown in reviews and discussions, there is no obvious correlation between price and performance in general, or SINAD and price in particular."
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Found what Gene said, in his CX-A5200 review:


"At 4Vrms out, 3rd order rose substantially to -76dB (though still inaudible at 0.015%). "

So that's not much different than Amir's, that he would highlight the sub 80 SINAD while reminding us that it would still be inaudible. Note that the -76 dB was for the 3rd Harmonics only. The actual SINAD (THD+N) would have been worse, may be as high as -73 dB?. Obviously while pointing out both sides of the equation, Gene did it in a much more tactful manner.:D
Tact is not one of Amir's strong points. Let alone comments on audibility issues.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I find this quantification , on ASR, of SINAD & THD+N , ... along wth his notes at the bottom ;-)

"Please don't look at this graph too accurately. Small differences are not material and results vary slightly from test to test. Generally look to see what bucket the DAC falls in (color coded in the chart for easy reference: blue = best; red = worst). "

View attachment 34333

So anything Green(and upper yellow) & above should be safe. Do we have to define the absolute SOTA? , when the measuring guy says dont look at the numbers too accurately ;-)?

And there's another note on ASR
"Finally, please don’t take the measured values too seriously. It should also be clear that these comparison charts are more for convenience and should not serve as a buyer's guide. As @amirm and others have shown in reviews and discussions, there is no obvious correlation between price and performance in general, or SINAD and price in particular."
So his goal isn't to find the best measured components (SOTA), but to just measure a bunch of components?
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Next question: in order to qualify as SOTA, does the THD need to be 0.00xx % instead of 0.0xx % ? :D
Separates or not, based on manufacturer specifications:

AV8805/AV7705/AVR-X4X00H/SR701X.......................0.005% analog, 0.008% Digital @1.2V (assumed)
Yamaha CX-A series........................................................0.008% @ 1V RCA
Anthem AVM60..............................................................-95 dB SINAD, that is 0.0018% THD+N @ 2V XLR
NAD M17 V2...................................................................<0.005% @ 2V XLR
Monoprice HTP-1.............................................................N/A, but measured -96 to -97 dB
Emotiva RMC-1.................................................................N/A

Am I missing something? How come there don't seem to be THD specs on the NAD and Emotiva websites?
Regardless, we already know the Emo and Monoprice didn't measure better than -95 dB so it is reasonable to say to be considered SOTA, THD+N needs to be at about -96 dB SINAD, or 0.0016 % THD+N at 4V XLR or 2V RCA. If there is an AVP/C that can do better than that, it has not been measured by Amir, or Gene.

There are many desktop DAC that measured much better but imo comparing two channel DACs to 11 channel AVP/C don't make much sense, it would be far worse than trying to compare AVP/C to AVRs.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
@Gmoney, forget all these numbers. I'll make it real simple and just get whatever AVP Gene gets. Then eat some Suzy Q cakes. Haha. :D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
So his goal isn't to find the best measured components (SOTA), but to just measure a bunch of components?
No, he's assessing engineering excellence. That means a lot to some of us. If it doesn't to you, just ignore the site.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The one I got is $60 per month and inçlides pretty much everything. American home shield. Friend told me about it.
How many times have you used the home warranty?

I used to have American Home Shield also for our rental properties. But after we tried to use the warranty to fix a plumbing leak in one of our rental properties in California, they pretty much gave us the runaround. I can't recall exactly what happened. But we didn't get what we wanted and ended up having to use our own money for repairs. So I cancelled AHS ever since.

$60/mo x 12 mo = $720/yr x 10 yr = $7200. I can a lot of appliances with $7200 in 10 years if that's all AHS truly covers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This is the comparison table for IMD (lower better) and DNR (higher better):

View attachment 34342
So with DNR (Do Not Resuscitate, right @TLS Guy ? :D), ASR sometimes uses 4V, sometimes they don't specify how many Volts?

With IMD, which figures are more "representative " ? -5dB?

Besides the usual "it depends" and "all of the above" answers, which parameters are salient when determining SOTA or "best engineering and quality " in electronics?

Distortion (THD) and Noise (SNR) - and their various nomenclature?

A lot of people also measured Crosstalk and Freq Resp, but these are less important?
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Ninja
How many times have you used the home warranty?

I used to have American Home Shield also for our rental properties. But after we tried to use the warranty to fix a plumbing leak in one of our rental properties in California, they pretty much gave us the runaround. I can't recall exactly what happened. But we didn't get what we wanted and ended up having to use our own money for repairs. So I cancelled AHS ever since.

$60/mo x 12 mo = $720/yr x 10 yr = $7200. I can a lot of appliances with $7200 in 10 years if that's all AHS truly covers.
My friend has used his numerous times and hasn't had any issues. Even a foundation leak. I'll find out if they're good when they come to fix my cook top.
 

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