Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[Pogre]

Thanks, I thought that distance only affected the timing/delay (i.e. when is the sound wave received by the microphone)?

I noticed for example that when playing music, the hihats on a song didn't play at the exact same moment on both speakers using the YPAO settings, so I made the distance setting equal (9.2ft) and it sounded better to my ears.

Anyway, I just toed the speakers in a bit more giving me a better soundstage at the listening sweet spot, so will need to redo measurements. Will try to do that tonight.

You still have a lot more going on in that corner. I'm guessing you might have some funky reflections there and ypao is adjusting for it.

I'm getting warm fuzzies reading your progress. You've kept your mind open and rolled up your sleeves. It's starting to pay off now. Very cool. Good job!

 

[Txzick]

Getting back to the original post...
"HDMI compatibility"- that IS the problem- gov't getting into areas they have no business (understanding) being in. HDMI & HDCP is copy protection that requires a “digital handshake”. For years manufacturers tried to make their products work with a technology (HDCP) that really didn't have proven standards and everyone was doing different things, different ways. Brands who had been making very good analogue video suddenly needed to design products with no proven technology to satisfy HDCP requirements. So we the consumer were the guinea pigs. Much of the digital audio got mastered quickly, choose a quality DAC and consumers were satisfied. HDMI without HDCP was also working. HDCP destroyed the reputation of many manufacturers- it was never ready for prime time, but it was the law. Movie makers won, everyone else lost.

Room correction- Dirac & ARC are both very good. There is nothing that can correct sound in many rooms without acoustic traps and absorption. We can't change the laws of physics. Room preparation MUST be a part of your purchasing budget, just as any electronic component or speaker. Water's wet, rocks are hard and that's the way it is.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

Hi guys,

I read this thread and nobody mentioned something that I'm desperate to know, how many watts does RX-A3080 output when driven on more than 2 channels?

I'm extensively reading on competing models of D, M and Y and see that DM have bigger power supply and output when driven on all channels. Measurements say they give 65-70% of the 2 channel declarated value when driven on 5 channels. I can nowhere find measurements for Y RX-A3080. I can only see that power supply is weaker which suggests to me that power on all channels is lower than on competing DM. Gene also showed this on low-end model RX-A860.

Soon I will make my AVR purchase of D, M or Y and pair it with B&W 603 5.1 system. I'm leaning towards DM ( few models are in consideration AVR-4500X, SR7013, SR6014, RX-A3089) despite being scared with HDMI handshake issues.

Even if money is not big issue at the moment I don't want to overkill myself with 11.2 channels AVR... I'm more of a guy who's buying what I really need, not more.

Do you have some info on RX-A3080 5 channel measurements, maybe some advice on the AVR, comment on the speakers...

Appreciate you all AHs.

 

[Pogre]

Hi guys,

I read this thread and nobody mentioned something that I'm desperate to know, how many watts does RX-A3080 output when driven on more than 2 channels?

I'm extensively reading on competing models of D, M and Y and see that DM have bigger power supply and output when driven on all channels. Measurements say they give 65-70% of the 2 channel declarated value when driven on 5 channels. I can nowhere find measurements for Y RX-A3080. I can only see that power supply is weaker which suggests to me that power on all channels is lower than on competing DM. Gene also showed this on low-end model RX-A860.

Soon I will make my AVR purchase of D, M or Y and pair it with B&W 603 5.1 system. I'm leaning towards DM ( few models are in consideration AVR-4500X, SR7013, SR6014, RX-A3089) despite being scared with HDMI handshake issues.

Even if money is not big issue at the moment I don't want to overkill myself with 11.2 channels AVR... I'm more of a guy who's buying what I really need, not more.

Do you have some info on RX-A3080 5 channel measurements, maybe some advice on the AVR, comment on the speakers...

Appreciate you all AHs.

I'm not a big fan of the 600 series speaker from B&W. I'm not a big fan of any of their stuff until you get into the 800 series. The 802 D3s are among the best sounding speakers I've heard, but you're also paying through the nose for them, lol.

As to your question about power, are you planning on running all your speakers at once, a la all channel or 5 channel stereo? That's more of a mono mix than anything resembling stereo and not very common. Aside from that there are very, very few situations where you'd blasting all channels at the same time so worrying about it is kind of a waste.

I say pick the avr that satisfies your needs for feature sets and if you feel you need some more power you can add an external amp. I don't recall exactly, but I think I remember reading that your speakers might present a tough load for an avr so a separate amp might do you some good.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

I'm not a big fan of the 600 series speaker from B&W. I'm not a big fan of any of their stuff until you get into the 800 series. The 802 D3s are among the best sounding speakers I've heard, but you're also paying through the nose for them, lol.

As to your question about power, are you planning on running all your speakers at once, a la all channel or 5 channel stereo? That's more of a mono mix than anything resembling stereo and not very common. Aside from that there are very, very few situations where you'd blasting all channels at the same time so worrying about it is kind of a waste.

I say pick the avr that satisfies your needs for feature sets and if you feel you need some more power you can add an external amp. I don't recall exactly, but I think I remember reading that your speakers might present a tough load for an avr so a separate amp might do you some good.

Thanks,

I didn't dive in multiple channels that much so I'm not educated enough, but i plan muaic listening in 2.0 and 2.1, and watching movies in 5.1 and probably 5.2. will buy additional speakers for the other room and add 2nd zone.

My understanding was that when I hook all speakers weak AVR would not deliver enough power to run them loud nad without distortion.

I've read that B&W 683 are very good speakers, not perfect. I would go for 800s it would be a waste of money for me, as you said they are just too expensive.

What AVR would be good enough to run this set of speakers without overloading the AVR?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hi guys,

I read this thread and nobody mentioned something that I'm desperate to know, how many watts does RX-A3080 output when driven on more than 2 channels?

I'm extensively reading on competing models of D, M and Y and see that DM have bigger power supply and output when driven on all channels. Measurements say they give 65-70% of the 2 channel declarated value when driven on 5 channels. I can nowhere find measurements for Y RX-A3080. I can only see that power supply is weaker which suggests to me that power on all channels is lower than on competing DM. Gene also showed this on low-end model RX-A860.

Soon I will make my AVR purchase of D, M or Y and pair it with B&W 603 5.1 system. I'm leaning towards DM ( few models are in consideration AVR-4500X, SR7013, SR6014, RX-A3089) despite being scared with HDMI handshake issues.

Even if money is not big issue at the moment I don't want to overkill myself with 11.2 channels AVR... I'm more of a guy who's buying what I really need, not more.

Do you have some info on RX-A3080 5 channel measurements, maybe some advice on the AVR, comment on the speakers...

Appreciate you all AHs.

In real life we hardly ever actually encounter ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN (ACD).

That's why we hardly ever read about a Yamaha AVR (especially a flagship model) shutting down when playing 7.1 or 9.1 surround sound.

Thus, about the only place you will actually see ACD is on the test bench where they torture test amps/AVRs.

So Yamaha believes in implementing very strict protection circuits that limit outputs for ACD.

This may be part of the reason why Yamaha AVRs and Pre-pros operate much cooler than others. And may be part of the reason why Yamaha might be more reliable.

And that's why most of us focus on the 2CH Driven test.

In the very rare cases where you will truly need external amps, you should probably be buying separates Pre-pros + Amps, not AVRs anyway.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks,

I didn't dive in multiple channels that much so I'm not educated enough, but i plan muaic listening in 2.0 and 2.1, and watching movies in 5.1 and probably 5.2. will buy additional speakers for the other room and add 2nd zone.

My understanding was that when I hook all speakers weak AVR would not deliver enough power to run them loud nad without distortion.

I've read that B&W 683 are very good speakers, not perfect. I would go for 800s it would be a waste of money for me, as you said they are just too expensive.

What AVR would be good enough to run this set of speakers without overloading the AVR?

I think the Yamaha you're looking at will do the job pretty well. It's one of their better receivers. As far as power needs, this SPL Calculator is a fun little tool that'll give you an idea of your power requirements. Just fill in the fields (2 speakers, sensitivity, distance from front stage) and it'll show you how much volume you can get at a given power level.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

In real life we hardly ever actually encounter ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN (ACD).

That's why we hardly ever read about a Yamaha AVR (especially a flagship model) shutting down when playing 7.1 or 9.1 surround sound.

Thus, about the only place you will actually see ACD is on the test bench where they torture test amps/AVRs.

So Yamaha believes in implementing very strict protection circuits that limits outputs for ACD.

This may be part of the reason why Yamaha AVRs and Pre-pros operate much cooler than others. And may be part of the reason why Yamaha might be more reliable.

And that's why most of us focus on the 2CH Driven test.

In the very rare cases where you will truly need external amps, you should probably be buying separates Pre-pros + Amps, not AVRs anyway.

So if I'd like to crank B&W 603 5.1 hard what AVR would you suggest? I can't believe that modern AVRs cannot handle this...hm...

But I'm not a pro as most of you here so that's why I'm asking

 

[Pogre]

So if I'd like to crank B&W 603 5.1 hard what AVR would you suggest? I can't believe that modern AVRs cannot handle this...hm...

But I'm not a pro as most of you here so that's why I'm asking

Play around with that SPL calculator for a minute. I think you'll find you're only using a couple of watts at a time.

*Edit: I sit 14' from my front stage and 5 watts will get me to 88 dB, which is pretty loud. From there I need to double my power for every 3 dB gained. 10 watts for 91, 20 watts for 94, 40 watts for 97, 80 watts for 100, 160 watts for 103, etc. I don't think I have ever had it as loud as 103 dB. That's pretty incredibly loud.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So if I'd like to crank B&W 603 5.1 hard what AVR would you suggest? I can't believe that modern AVRs cannot handle this...hm...

But I'm not a pro as most of you here so that's why I'm asking

Yamaha A2080, A3080, Denon X3600, X4500, Marantz SR7013.

Focus on the main 2Ch performance. The other channels (ACD) aren't as important when it comes to power requirement.

 

[Pogre]

Yamaha A2080, A3080, Denon X3600, X4500, Marantz SR7013.

Focus on the main 2Ch performance. The other channels (ACD) aren't as important when it comes to power requirement.

What's your take on the dip in impedance at 15k hz? Is that a difficult load?

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-dm603-s3-loudspeaker-measurements

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

I tried the calc it's good.

The thing is that I don't want to compromise the sound quality due to the weak AVR which can't deliver power to run these speakers properly (without distortion and loud), and shuts down due to overheating.

I know DM can act as a heat radiator when you torture them, that's something I count on just don't want it to shutdown.

I saw some guy who's Marrantz and he was mostly using it on 2chs. In the service they told him that "it's not meant to run on two channels only". I mean OMG!

I like the DM policy where they're using big power supplies, I'm just wondering is that so important to run 5.2.4

Regarding the stereophile measurements, they say the dips are not audible, I've read this.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What's your take on the dip in impedance at 15k hz? Is that a difficult load?

View attachment 33829

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-dm603-s3-loudspeaker-measurements

Personally I don't worry about a 3+ ohm dip in the upper treble.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Correct me if I’m wrong please, but I seem to recall that those particular B&W’s don’t do very good with high volumes. Can’t remember but it seems we had another member who kept blowing his woofers out, and TLS,(and Andrew I thought) kept repeating that they just weren’t high spl friendly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Correct me if I’m wrong please, but I seem to recall that those particular B&W’s don’t do very good with high volumes. Can’t remember but it seems we had another member who kept blowing his woofers out, and TLS,(and Andrew I thought) kept repeating that they just weren’t high spl friendly.

I think the consensus is that most B&W speakers aren't great.

But people like what they like.

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

I think the consensus is that most B&W speakers aren't great.

But people like what they like.

I see. You just made my life more complicated lol. I read on a few places, even here, that they are in fact good speakers, but I guess some people love their equipment too much to be objective

I found B&W 603 5.1 system in Ireland for 3.255$ and thought to get away with them.

What would you suggest me to look for that price range, speaker-wise? I'd go for a 5.1 and later add another sub.

What's available in USA might not be in small country of Ireland

 

[Ken32]

I see. You just made my life more complicated lol. I read on a few places, even here, that they are in fact good speakers, but I guess some people love their equipment too much to be objective

I found B&W 603 5.1 system in Ireland for 3.255$ and thought to get away with them.

What would you suggest me to look for that price range, speaker-wise? I'd go for a 5.1 and later add another sub.

What's available in USA might not be in small country of Ireland

I bought my 683s2 for 1200 and i like them. I’ve compared several different speaker brands side by side with mine and I still prefer the B&W. Though; there’s still more speakers I’d like to compare them against. Why not? I’ll always have that what-if in the back of my head. Of course there’s better speakers out there (crossovers, cabinet build quality, driver quality, etc....) at the end of the day, none of that matters if they don’t have the sound you desire to back it.....

For example: I’ve had 10k dollar paradigm personas next to speakers that cost 2k dollars or even 1k for that matter and it was laughable.... Sure the paradigms had much higher quality overall... Not so much in the sound department. Not by a long shot. Same was said by 6 different people in the room. So it wasn’t just my opinion. I’m still searching for speakers to replace my current setup.... I know the upper end B&W will absolutely take the cake. I’m definitely not spending that much on them. Not happening. I’m looking at Polk audio LSIM line and hopefully they win. I’ve always like their speakers. Especially in automotive. Just my .02

 

[Hi-Fi-Guy]

There you go, you're just confirming what I read all over again, B&W do have "something". I'm not sure what to do, what to buy, I have few months to read and look for. I thought I made a good choice with this 5.1 setup but we'll see.

I've been listening Mike Oldfield's Return to Ommadawn lately and I can only imagine how does that sound on a pair of hi quality hi-fi speakers. Now it might not be someone's else's thing, but I'm absolutely consumed by that masterpiece.

Maybe someone can recommend some system in a 3K range, that is max for my wife

 

[Ken32]

There you go, you're just confirming what I read all over again, B&W do have "something". I'm not sure what to do, what to buy, I have few months to read and look for. I thought I made a good choice with this 5.1 setup but we'll see.

I've been listening Mike Oldfield's Return to Ommadawn lately and I can only imagine how does that sound on a pair of hi quality hi-fi speakers. Now it might not be someone's else's thing, but I'm absolutely consumed by that masterpiece.

Maybe someone can recommend some system in a 3K range, that is max for my wife

Polk LSIM are well regarded on sound and vision and other forums from what I’ve read. I think their RTI series is a good deal at 600 a pair and offers real wood veneer. The 705 LSiMs are next on my list. They’re on clearance right now for 1300 for the 705 towers because of the new legend line. SVS pinnacles are scoring well. I’m curious about the Emotiva t2+ lineup. HTD makes a really nice speaker for HT use.

Reviews help some. The rest depends on your taste of sound or what you’re looking to achieve. Just order a few different brands that offer free returns and demo them.

As far as receivers go... I’ve had D+M overheat like crazy without fan assistance. I sent them back for Onkyos lineup and had an issue with the 820. Resolved that and got an RZ 830 that’s been flawless. I push it a decent amount and stays cool to the touch. Much cheaper and no difference in SQ.... quality parts and built like a tank. Onkyo is now owned by the same company as D+M. So that might interest you.

 

[ryanosaur]

There are a lot of reviews that regard many speakers "well."
B&W 600, and even their 700 series show several flaws in their measurements and electronic behavior (impedance and Phase Angle). Same with the Polks.
How B&W makes those lesser speakers and sells them, I don't get. The reputation is amazing, and I've never heard a bad word said re: the 800 series speakers (except the cost...)
Frankly, the lesser B&Ws didn't hold up to many other speakers I auditioned, and for the cost of the 700 Series Towers... That was abhorrent.

Forgive... my inner curmudgeon is now ascendant.

At the end of the day, your system, your ears, your ducats. If you like 'em, go for it. If you don't get out and audition other speakers... you'll never know.

Though I personally don't like them, KEF Q series sounded really good. Monitor Audio Bronze is well regarded. I auditioned MA Silvers and was blown away by them... Highly recommend these to any and all!
Though I haven't heard them, Q Acoustics seems to have a good product out. Tannoy seems to get constant praise when I hear people talk about them, as do Dali.

I was very curious about the Emotiva speakers, but the dearth of third-party reviews and extreme fan-boy praise turned me off of them (and all of their products... as well as the fact that they are known to not always service their gear, and their track record for delivering on promises about their AV Pre-Pros is abysmal).

Just my 2¢. YMMV. And, as I said before... Your system, your ducats.

Cheers!