Canare 4S11 compared to Monoprice 16AWG speaker wire.

[TheWarrior]

Don't let others opinions that might tell you it's all a placebo effect or you can't hear a difference make your decision.

Except when scientific double blind testing and articles posted by this very site contradict that. Bias is real and influences your perception. You’ve got a fancy new cable. It’s perfectly reasonable to believe it has ‘opened up your speakers.’
But the reality is that the Canare flies in the face of those claiming cable gauge = better sound. They are a smaller cables, however sufficient for all but the longest runs, the canare allow for two pairs to be intertwined in the same sleeve without causing any interactions between two differing signals.

 

[Truthslayer]

Except when scientific double blind testing and articles posted by this very site contradict that. Bias is real and influences your perception. You’ve got a fancy new cable. It’s perfectly reasonable to believe it has ‘opened up your speakers.’
But the reality is that the Canare flies in the face of those claiming cable gauge = better sound. They are a smaller cables, however sufficient for all but the longest runs, the canare allow for two pairs to be intertwined in the same sleeve without causing any interactions between two differing signals.

Sorry if I was not clear, I was Not claiming that lower cable gauge = better sound. Hell I read an article by that Noel guy from monster, trying to justify his expensive 16g cables, saying they found more resistance actually produced a better sound (LOL). Only that a lower gauge will have less resistance.
Whether one can hear a perceivable difference in sound quality of different cable gauges can be dependent on the system ( amplifier power, speaker impedance) and individual, so who are we to tell he or she there is no actual perceivable difference. That's it's all a placebo effect. Without hearing their system and swapping of said cables, I just don't think it's right when people immediately start saying it's all a placebo effect, trying negate their findings.

 

[highfigh]

The picture is of the Monster M2.4. As you can see these cables are thick and the silver piece with the black rubber bands around it really put some weight to the cable. I am actually using a a stereo stand instead of a stereo rack. I believe these cables were designed to be connected to a amp that is placed on the floor so the angle the cables are minimized compared to going almost vertical when the AVR is placed in an elevated position.

And the construction of these is part of the reason commercial and industrial contractors NEVER use them.

They're big because people see big and think "better".

Just attach them to the back of the shelf and be done with it. There's no shame in doing that- it's a very functional and well-hidden way to accomplish the solution.

Here's the part I was referring to- they're called 'lacing bars' and you can screw it to the back edge of a shelf, using tie wraps or Velcro strips to fasten them.

https://www.l-com.com/Content/Images/Product/Large/LBP-1A_500x500_View1.jpg

Parts Express has them and they're not expensive.

 

[lovinthehd]

I find these useful for cable management, might work for your situation https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TK1ZTDM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[TheWarrior]

Sorry if I was not clear, I was Not claiming that lower cable gauge = better sound. Hell I read an article by that Noel guy from monster, trying to justify his expensive 16g cables, saying they found more resistance actually produced a better sound (LOL). Only that a lower gauge will have less resistance.
Whether one can hear a perceivable difference in sound quality of different cable gauges can be dependent on the system ( amplifier power, speaker impedance) and individual, so who are we to tell he or she there is no actual perceivable difference. That's it's all a placebo effect. Without hearing their system and swapping of said cables, I just don't think it's right when people immediately start saying it's all a placebo effect, trying negate their findings.

Quite of a few of us find the exotic cable industry to be criminal, to say the least. But what you are not seeing is just how THICK that Canare 4S11 cable is, with 2 "black" and 2 "red" cables wrapped up in a garden hose sized jacket. If I bought that for bi amping a passive speaker, @Grunt66, I would certainly be expecting to hear something better, too.

There are just too many tests, and too much information available for any reasonable person to stand by and watch or even encourage others to waste their money on pseudoscience, such as that is prevalent in comparing speaker cables of sufficient gauge for the length of run used.

 

[Grunt66]

Quite of a few of us find the exotic cable industry to be criminal, to say the least. But what you are not seeing is just how THICK that Canare 4S11 cable is, with 2 "black" and 2 "red" cables wrapped up in a garden hose sized jacket. If I bought that for bi amping a passive speaker, @Grunt66, I would certainly be expecting to hear something better, too.

There are just too many tests, and too much information available for any reasonable person to stand by and watch or even encourage others to waste their money on pseudoscience, such as that is prevalent in comparing speaker cables of sufficient gauge for the length of run used.

I do not consider the Canare 4S11 at $1.16 a foot exotic cable. Since I only need 10 feet for each speaker a total of 20 feet is all I need. So $23.20 plus shipping for a pair of speaker cables. I am currently borrowing the Canare 4S11 from a friend who is away on business for several weeks and he graciously allowed me to try them.

I do believe the equipment can make a difference. I do not claim to be an expert. In one of my vehicles I removed the entire stereo system back in 2008 (I still have the vehicle today). I installed a passive head unit (Esclipse CD7200MKII), amplification is provided by a JL Audio HD900/5 (class D), speakers are Hybird Audio Technologies (HAT)Legatia SE component speakers in front and HAT 6.5 midrange / midbass in the rear doors, and a slim line JL Audio 13.5 sub in the rear. The entire cab of the truck has dynamat installed. This system will make great recordings sound great but poor recordings and Satellite radio does not sound great when compared with our other vehicles. Now in our other vehicle (2018 BMW M5 F90) we opted for the Bowers and Wilkens stereo upgrade we felt the $3,400 for the system was worth the upgrade over the Harmen Karden stock system. In the M5 the Satellite radio sounds great compared to my system in my truck.

So in my man cave system when listening to music I am using the DAC's in the OPPO -205 using the analog outs and passing it through the Arcam. I am using DIrac for room correction. When I replaced my Denon 4311CI with the Arcam AVR-850 it was like a wet blanket had been removed from my speakers. The Denon sounded good for movies but sounded tinny and dull for music. I was initially looking for new speakers when I had a chance to listen to Arcam along with Denon, Integra, Marantz, and Pioneer in a controlled environment. No room correction was used on any of the AVR's and the source for music was a OPPO-205 and B&W 804D3 speakers were used. All in attendance in the listening room agreed the Arcam sounded the best.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Your 11g speaker wire is going to have less resistance than your 16g wire. Most of the time it should not make a difference . Yet when your factor in your speakers impedance of 6ohm and the rise and fall on that impedance during playback at different frequencies. It is possible to hear a difference. Whether most people could tell a difference or not, that's up for debate.
...

The resistance difference in that 10 ft is only .028 ohms between those two wire gauges.
I have yet to see evidence for audibility of such small change in resistance.

 

[TheWarrior]

I do not consider the Canare 4S11 at $1.16 a foot exotic cable. Since I only need 10 feet for each speaker a total of 20 feet is all I need. So $23.20 plus shipping for a pair of speaker cables. I am currently borrowing the Canare 4S11 from a friend who is away on business for several weeks and he graciously allowed me to try them.

I do believe the equipment can make a difference. I do not claim to be an expert. In one of my vehicles I removed the entire stereo system back in 2008 (I still have the vehicle today). I installed a passive head unit (Esclipse CD7200MKII), amplification is provided by a JL Audio HD900/5 (class D), speakers are Hybird Audio Technologies (HAT)Legatia SE component speakers in front and HAT 6.5 midrange / midbass in the rear doors, and a slim line JL Audio 13.5 sub in the rear. The entire cab of the truck has dynamat installed. This system will make great recordings sound great but poor recordings and Satellite radio does not sound great when compared with our other vehicles. Now in our other vehicle (2018 BMW M5 F90) we opted for the Bowers and Wilkens stereo upgrade we felt the $3,400 for the system was worth the upgrade over the Harmen Karden stock system. In the M5 the Satellite radio sounds great compared to my system in my truck.

So in my man cave system when listening to music I am using the DAC's in the OPPO -205 using the analog outs and passing it through the Arcam. I am using DIrac for room correction. When I replaced my Denon 4311CI with the Arcam AVR-850 it was like a wet blanket had been removed from my speakers. The Denon sounded good for movies but sounded tinny and dull for music. I was initially looking for new speakers when I had a chance to listen to Arcam along with Denon, Integra, Marantz, and Pioneer in a controlled environment. No room correction was used on any of the AVR's and the source for music was a OPPO-205 and B&W 804D3 speakers were used. All in attendance in the listening room agreed the Arcam sounded the best.

View attachment 33461View attachment 33462

Absolutely the gear can make a difference! I do not mean to insult your senses, but to make you aware of just how absurd speaker cable lore can get.

So what did you decide to do about cable management?

 

[Truthslayer]

Quite of a few of us find the exotic cable industry to be criminal, to say the least. But what you are not seeing is just how THICK that Canare 4S11 cable is, with 2 "black" and 2 "red" cables wrapped up in a garden hose sized jacket. If I bought that for bi amping a passive speaker, @Grunt66, I would certainly be expecting to hear something better, too.

There are just too many tests, and too much information available for any reasonable person to stand by and watch or even encourage others to waste their money on pseudoscience, such as that is prevalent in comparing speaker cables of sufficient gauge for the length of run used.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "what i'm not seeing is"

I do Not believe in all the cable lore BS myself. I personally run 10g KnuKoncepts speaker wire. It's not exotic nor expensive. It doesn't magically change my sound in any way shape or form. It's just well made, priced right and is easy to work with. It just performs as it should for the power being pushed through it.
What I do believe is, for the extra few pennies it cost's. I would go for 10g over 16g wire. It's about having the least resistance possible without going crazy. So if im wrong about using 10g wire, I guess everyone should start on Gene to, seeing that is what he also uses or used to anyway.

However, as i tried to make it clear ( which maybe i didn't). If some guy say's he swapped from 16g wire to 11g wire and he and his wife heard a difference, im not going to argue with him telling him it's just a placebo effect. Whether may be true or not. With all the factors coming into play ( amplifier, wire resistance, speaker impedance rise and fall), im just not willing to say it's impossible to notice a difference.

When it comes to audio, all the science and numbers can say one thing, but what we seem to hear doesn't always agree with the science. Sort of like some people think some old tube amp sounds better than an class A/B amp with stellar tested out specs to verify lower distortion. But the guy still thinks his tubes sound better. Same goes with different DAC's, some people actually prefer a DAC that actually measures out horribly.

When it comes to the audio game, there is no one set of standards that suit everybody. Since we all hear things a little differently, i just believe regardless of what the science say's. A person should go with what they find to be more pleasing to their ears. If that includes some placebo effect or not, it's not going to affect me one way or the other.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "what i'm not seeing is"

I do Not believe in all the cable lore BS myself. I personally run 10g KnuKoncepts speaker wire. It's not exotic nor expensive. It doesn't magically change my sound in any way shape or form. It's just well made, priced right and is easy to work with. It just performs as it should for the power being pushed through it.
What I do believe is, for the extra few pennies it cost's. I would go for 10g over 16g wire. It's about having the least resistance possible without going crazy. So if im wrong about using 10g wire, I guess everyone should start on Gene to, seeing that is what he also uses or used to anyway.

However, as i tried to make it clear ( which maybe i didn't). If some guy say's he swapped from 16g wire to 11g wire and he and his wife heard a difference, im not going to argue with him telling him it's just a placebo effect. Whether may be true or not. With all the factors coming into play ( amplifier, wire resistance, speaker impedance rise and fall), im just not willing to say it's impossible to notice a difference.

When it comes to audio, all the science and numbers can say one thing, but what we seem to hear doesn't always agree with the science. Sort of like some people think some old tube amp sounds better than an class A/B amp with stellar tested out specs to verify lower distortion. But the guy still thinks his tubes sound better. Same goes with different DAC's, some people actually prefer a DAC that actually measures out horribly.

When it comes to the audio game, there is no one set of standards that suit everybody. Since we all hear things a little differently, i just believe regardless of what the science say's. A person should go with what they find to be more pleasing to their ears. If that includes some placebo effect or not, it's not going to affect me one way or the other.

The whole wife thing is rife with disappointment with a valid test. That's key. A valid test/comparison. Anecdotes and poor testing methodology are just fairly meaningless around here particularly.

 

[Grunt66]

Absolutely the gear can make a difference! I do not mean to insult your senses, but to make you aware of just how absurd speaker cable lore can get.

So what did you decide to do about cable management?

I purchased the following from Amazon to help with the HDMI, RCA's, Ethernet cables , and speaker cables

 

[Truthslayer]

I purchased the following from Amazon to help with the HDMI, RCA's, Ethernet cables , and speaker cablesView attachment 33465View attachment 33466View attachment 33467

Seems like those options should work out well for you.

 

[lovinthehd]

I purchased the following from Amazon to help with the HDMI, RCA's, Ethernet cables , and speaker cablesView attachment 33465View attachment 33466View attachment 33467

Those are only so helpful for grouping, stress relief maybe not so much....(I have them, too)

 

[Truthslayer]

The whole wife thing is rife with disappointment with a valid test. That's key. A valid test/comparison. Anecdotes and poor testing methodology are just fairly meaningless around here particularly.

While I and others may agree with you and the science behind it. I'm not going to tell he or his wife what they may perceivably hear is just a place effect. I say if they think they hear a difference in the 16g to 11g wire swap, stick with it. No harm no foul.

 

[lovinthehd]

While I and others may agree with you and the science behind it. I'm not going to tell he or his wife what they may perceivably hear is just a place effect. I say if they think they hear a difference in the 16g to 11g wire swap, stick with it. No harm no foul.

And, like your religion, is usually more an impediment than anything useful....

 

[Grunt66]

I just finished watching a video from Audioholics on YouTube dated 2/27/15. Gene talks about speaker cable and he states for high fidelity he recommends a 12 gauge speaker wire. He also states he uses 10 gauge in his system. Gene's favorite is 14/4 cable which gives a 11 AWG when used in parallel. I have watched this video before and numerous others.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just finished watching a video from Audioholics on YouTube dated 2/27/15. Gene talks about speaker cable and he states for high fidelity he recommends a 12 gauge speaker wire. He also states he uses 10 gauge in his system. Gene's favorite is 14/4 cable which gives a 11 AWG when used in parallel. I have watched this video before and numerous others.

So? What's your particular comparison involved with this video? All about the details rather than misinterpreting something.....

 

[Grunt66]

i do appreciate everyone's input. Maybe I will get some exotic cables for my garage system. LOL, just kidding. Here is my Onkyo Integra TX-SV909Pro with some JBL book shelf speakers serving as my garage system. Purchased this new back in the day.

 

[lovinthehd]

Try this http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

 

[Grunt66]

So? What's your particular comparison involved with this video? All about the details rather than misinterpreting something.....

My take away is from the video is go with a lower gauge wire for lower resistance.