Building a home audio system + virtual pipe organ. What do I need?

[bradleybj09]

I know this probably does not help, but I designed a house for a client in '97 or so and the wife had an actual (electric) organ in the living area. I worked with the organ manufacturer and a local A/V dealer to place (IIRC) 16 speakers surrounding the open, two story great room. Fun stuff!

Nice. Honestly, it isn't much different than what I'm doing. It's just that instead of an organ box with fixed sounds (i.e. all of the stops are always the same, determined by the manufacturer) this is just a bunch of midi keyboards, etc., that play through software on a pc (and play sampled pipe organs from around the world) instead of through the organ's internal electronics.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just mean to ask: the 2x4 makes sense, it has 4 analog outputs. But the 2x8 ALSO has 4 analog outputs, but lists them as being pairs of channel in each output, which I don't understand.

Have a couple 2x4s so not particularly familiar with the 2x8, it could be limited to 4 paired outputs....but it would somewhat surprise me. The 2x8 should have 8 outputs in any case....but will go look next chance I get.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm sure you have heard of Cameron Carpenter and his virtual organ and especially his touring organ. The file is too big, but you can download the details here.

This organ was designed by Cameron Carpenter and built by Massachusetts-based Marshall & Ogletree, at a cost of around 2 million dollars.

Here is a sped up video of the organ being set up in a concert hall.

Cameron Carpenter: Rachmaninoff's Paganini Rhapsody for Organ & Orchestra

Here is the instrument playing with an orchestra.

Cameron Carpenter - Bach's Fugue in B Minor (Live at SFJAZZ)

cameron_carpenter & virtual pipe organ

Cameron Carpenter brought the instrument to Orchestra Hall a couple of years ago. It was better then I expected, but I have definite issues with the speaker system, and I reckon I could do better.

Yes, I would use TLs as they are Gedeckt organ pipes. To me putting those metal horns in front of the drivers does not make sense. This is an attempt to reproduce En chamarde reeds. These are fierce trumpet stops.

It seems to me that of the pipes have been properly sampled then the reproduction should not have to be reproduced by another trumpet in front of the speaker. However the visual effect is impressive.
It is getting late now and I will have more to say on the matter tomorrow.

 

[bradleybj09]

I'm sure you have heard of Cameron Carpenter and his virtual organ and especially his touring organ. The file is too big, but you can download the details here.

This organ was designed by Cameron Carpenter and built by Massachusetts-based Marshall & Ogletree, at a cost of around 2 million dollars.

Here is a sped up video of the organ being set up in a concert hall.

Cameron Carpenter: Rachmaninoff's Paganini Rhapsody for Organ & Orchestra

Here is the instrument playing with an orchestra.

Cameron Carpenter - Bach's Fugue in B Minor (Live at SFJAZZ)

cameron_carpenter & virtual pipe organ

Cameron Carpenter brought the instrument to Orchestra Hall a couple of years ago. It was better then I expected, but I have definite issues with the speaker system, and I reckon I could do better.

Yes, I would use TLs as they are Gedeckt organ pipes. To me putting those metal horns in front of the drivers does not make sense. This is an attempt to reproduce En chamarde reeds. These are fierce trumpet stops.

It seems to me that of the pipes have been properly sampled then the reproduction should not have to be reproduced by another trumpet in front of the speaker. However the visual effect is impressive.
It is getting late now and I will have more to say on the matter tomorrow.

I've seen him, in all likelihood at the performances at Heinz Hall in that first video; I think he's only been here once. His instrument is a little ...beyond the scale of what I'm doing, to understate things. My targeted instruments are the Caen Cavaille-Coll, one of the Silbermann baroque instruments, and the magnificent (and very famous) instrument in Haarlem, NL. These are all three manual instruments, which is what I'm building on my end. I'm building my own drawknobs - everything from the solenoid magnets, 3d printed parts, and turning the knobs themselves on a lathe. I'm also not alone in this home. My partner is supportive of this endeavor, but we don't want to coat the house with speakers and ruin everything about it that isn't the organ.
I also am a little short of that $2 million.

He's a fantastic player, some things he does are so impressive and thought through, some ...are for the shock factor. That first Bach (the great g minor if 3am me is not hallucinating) is unfortunately without feeling or taste, for me.

 

[Pogre]

I have flat response down to 16 hz with my VTF-3 MK5 dual drive package (price in link is for 2 of them). A few measurements and a little DSP was the icing on the sub-cake.

I have multiple measurements because I was switching different DSP modes (DEQ off, on, -Reference Level Offset 5, 10, 15).

 

[bradleybj09]

I'm sure you have heard of Cameron Carpenter and his virtual organ and especially his touring organ. The file is too big, but you can download the details here.

This organ was designed by Cameron Carpenter and built by Massachusetts-based Marshall & Ogletree, at a cost of around 2 million dollars.

Here is a sped up video of the organ being set up in a concert hall.

Cameron Carpenter: Rachmaninoff's Paganini Rhapsody for Organ & Orchestra

Here is the instrument playing with an orchestra.

Cameron Carpenter - Bach's Fugue in B Minor (Live at SFJAZZ)

cameron_carpenter & virtual pipe organ

Cameron Carpenter brought the instrument to Orchestra Hall a couple of years ago. It was better then I expected, but I have definite issues with the speaker system, and I reckon I could do better.

Yes, I would use TLs as they are Gedeckt organ pipes. To me putting those metal horns in front of the drivers does not make sense. This is an attempt to reproduce En chamarde reeds. These are fierce trumpet stops.

It seems to me that of the pipes have been properly sampled then the reproduction should not have to be reproduced by another trumpet in front of the speaker. However the visual effect is impressive.
It is getting late now and I will have more to say on the matter tomorrow.

It's also worth a mention that the Cavaille-Coll in Caen has a 32' contra-bombarde in the extended sample set - but it does not actually exist on the real instrument. I don't know if that stop is digitally extended from the existing 16', or if it is sampled from another instrument and added here. But, since it doesn't exist in the first place, my intent is to go in and goose up the voicing a little bit, to pretend a little bit to be the C-C in St Ouen in Rouen, an instrument beloved for its "unusually powerful 32' contra bombarde":

Pierre Labric plays Widor: Allegro from Symphony VI

Pierre Labric plays the first movement of Widor's 6th Symphony at St. Ouen, Rouen in 1971.

youtu.be

Hence my need for good bass...

 

[Swerd]

Most of my reading from people who have created these projects themselves seems to indicate that many decent speakers and channels is preferable to a small amount of really nice speaker.

Part of this is in the reproduction of a real instrument - the pipes are often in many places around the room, and the software can map per-pipe to different audio channels - and part of it is to help with destructive wave cancellations from all of the pipes playing simultaneously. I am not 100% sure what that means, but I get the gist of it, and maybe it's more meaningful to you.

The Schroeder Frequency of your 28'×20' room plus the locations of both the speakers and of the listener all are important for bass sound. This determines just what frequency ranges are subject to additive and destructive wave behavior (additions and cancellations).

You will not be able to change your room's dimensions, but you can help things by careful location of speakers and listening position. Most people get by for standard home audio by a simple trial & error process, called Crawling for Bass (see links below). In a nutshell, put your subwoofer where you plan to listen, start playing music with good bass content, and crawl around the room on hands & knees, listening for the variations. In some spots, the bass will be puny, and others it will be loud. Map out where the good bass performance spots are, and choose among them where to put your subwoofer. One thing that comes out of this is that with one subwoofer, no single location is ideal, and that two subwoofers in different locations can improve things.

Crawling for bass:

Crawling for Bass - Subwoofer Placement Tips

Do the Subwoofer Crawl. It's the easiest way to find the proper placement location for your subwoofer to get the best performance and sound.

www.audioholics.com

How to Place a Subwoofer For Best Bass Performance

Subwoofer Placement: An easy guide for placement of your home theater subwoofer. Crawl for bass to find the optimal location and achieve the best sound.

www.audioholics.com

Subwoofer Placement Guidelines

Subwoofer Crawl Placement Guide: Get the best bass from your subwoofer with these placement guidelines. Find the best location for your sub here.

www.audioholics.com

So, I know I want/need a few things: A good sub, capable of 16Hz.

Just so you know, speakers or sub-woofers with good bass performance down as low as about 30 Hz are widely available. But the good ones will cost you. Going lower, down to about 25 Hz, will cost even more. Going lower than that gets into really big money.

All of this is, of course, subject to the rules of acoustic physics, the room's Schroeder frequency. You should understand that rooms in homes and much larger concert halls or theaters will have quite different bass behaviors. What works for a theater will not work for your room at home. I don't know of any software that can properly deal with these differences. Because the differences are due to wave behavior through the air – after the sound leaves the speaker cone – no digital signal processing I know of can effectively deal with this.

The software maps to audio channels per-pipe, not by frequency. This has an interesting impact because the lowest pipes are not like a digitally produced low frequency, but rather are recorded in natural spaces and have a big of overtones and treble sound in them. I don't think I just want a normal sub to map these to, and lose all the treble sound. The sub needs to be able to sustain these. I don't know how to see if this is or is not true for a certain sub, but it was brought up enough that I need to make sure of it. i.e. it isn't just for low short effects in movies.

Low bass performance can, in general, be accomplished by woofers larger than about 12" diameter, such as 15" or 18". But as woofers get larger, their high frequency performance suffers. So you can't solve this problem simply by throwing large diameter woofers at it.

This problem is very interesting, but I don't know of an easy solution. I repeated it only to bring it to the attention of other readers. An idea, that pops into my head, would have sub-woofers handle all sound below roughly 250 Hz (assumed to be your room's Schroeder frequency), and other small bookshelf type speakers handle the rest. I don't really know if this would work or not, but I throw the idea out there.

I don't understand how such a 'virtual pipe organ' system could be controlled. Perhaps use pro-audio control systems? This would be quite different than a typical home theater system. But I do wonder if the speakers for such a virtual pipe organ could also be used as a more standard home theater audio system. That might introduce a lot of difficulty or unwanted compromise.

In general, I'd stay away from Definitive Technology subwoofers. Others, such as SVS or Hsu, are better.

 

[bradleybj09]

An idea, that pops into my head, would have sub-woofers handle all sound below roughly 250 Hz (assumed to be your room's Schroeder frequency), and other small bookshelf type speakers handle the rest.

This has been my thought. I've seen some pretty decent looking <10" bipolar surround speakers around ~$200, and also the pricier (and larger) Hsu set quoted to me earlier. I think that would solve what I need, but I need to figure out how to crossover the pedal pipes between a sub and a speaker.

I don't understand how such a 'virtual pipe organ' system could be controlled. Perhaps use pro-audio control systems? This would be quite different than a typical home theater system. But I do wonder if the speakers for such a virtual pipe organ could also be used as a more standard home theater audio system. That might introduce a lot of difficulty or unwanted compromise.

This should all be controlled via a digital-in multi-analog-out interface that communicates with the organ software, putting things in the right channels. I'm obstinate and stubborn so I'm going to try to find a way to use a switch to allow a home audio box to communicate with the speakers instead of the organ box. Unless, I suppose the potential exists that if the box has two inputs, I could plug a home audio receiver into one, and the organ digital out into the other, or so I hope/fantasize.

 

[everettT]

Right - 6-8 surrounds along with the sub. I don't want to get something totally needless, it isn't a huge space, and I have neighbors. But, I don't want it to be weak.

Check out JTR speakers. High output and well designed.

This has been my thought. I've seen some pretty decent looking <10" bipolar surround speakers around ~$200, and also the pricier (and larger) Hsu set quoted to me earlier. I think that would solve what I need, but I need to figure out how to crossover the pedal pipes between a sub and a speaker.

This should all be controlled via a digital-in multi-analog-out interface that communicates with the organ software, putting things in the right channels. I'm obstinate and stubborn so I'm going to try to find a way to use a switch to allow a home audio box to communicate with the speakers instead of the organ box. Unless, I suppose the potential exists that if the box has two inputs, I could plug a home audio receiver into one, and the organ digital out into the other, or so I hope/fantasize.

Not to answer for any of the above, your room might not dictate one for overly reflective sound. If you decide you want bipolar speakers, start with electrostatic speakers, as they are readily available.

 

[bradleybj09]

Check out JTR speakers. High output and well designed.

Hmm, this might be a little out of budget... the cheapest speaker on their website is $1500/each.

 

[Swerd]

This has been my thought. I've seen some pretty decent looking <10" bipolar surround speakers around ~$200, and also the pricier (and larger) Hsu set quoted to me earlier. I think that would solve what I need, but I need to figure out how to crossover the pedal pipes between a sub and a speaker.

I don't think bipole speakers would be good for an array of primary sound speakers, as if I understand what you propose. Because their sound dispersal is more diffuse than traditional monopole speakers, using 4, 5, or 6 speakers in an 'array of front channel' speakers might present a nightmare when it comes to speaker locations. I'd suggest keeping it simple by using monopole speakers all around.

Make sure you know what the differences between monopole, bipole, and dipole speakers.
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/surround-speaker-dipole-vs-bipole

It's been my own experience that bipole speakers can work for rear channels in home theater, especially if the room has more than 1 row of seating. Imagine a dedicated home theater room with a large screen and 2 or 3 rows of seats. Bipole speakers are said to work for the side channels.

My own family room has a single row of seating and my rear channel speakers (a 5 channel system) are small 2-way monopoles. It works well. Remember than in movie videos, the rear channels are mainly back ground and ambiance. The front 3 speakers, almost always monopoles, are for the primary sounds including dialogue.

 

[bradleybj09]

I don't think bipole speakers would be good for an array of primary sound speakers, as if I understand what you propose. Because their sound dispersal is more diffuse than traditional monopole speakers, using 4, 5, or 6 speakers in an 'array of front channel' speakers might present a nightmare when it comes to speaker locations. I'd suggest keeping it simple by using monopole speakers all around.

Make sure you know what the differences between monopole, bipole, and dipole speakers.
https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/surround-speaker-dipole-vs-bipole

It's been my own experience that bipole speakers can work for rear channels in home theater, especially if the room has more than 1 row of seating. Imagine a dedicated home theater room with a large screen and 2 or 3 rows of seats. Bipole speakers are said to work for the side channels.

My own family room has a single row of seating and my rear channel speakers (a 5 channel system) are small 2-way monopoles. It works well. Remember than in movie videos, the rear channels are mainly back ground and ambiance. The front 3 speakers, almost always monopoles, are for the primary sounds including dialogue.

Interesting. That's helpful, I'll keep it in mind. Maybe no on the bipolars then.

 

[Swerd]

Like others who've posted on your question, I'm not clear just what kind of electronic gear a 'virtual pipe organ' is. In home audio, where recorded music playback is the goal, there are sound sources (CD, DVD, downloads from various online streaming services, FM radio, etc.), preamp/processing gear, amplification gear, and finally loud speakers.

In terms of signal level, the signal voltages go from low (roughly 0.1 to 0.2 Volts also known as "line level" voltage) in most analog signal sources – to the much higher voltages (roughly 1 to 100 Volts) required to drive loudspeakers. Preamps, among other things, also boost the signal from line level to preamp level, roughly 1 to 10 Volts. Amplifiers provide the final boost to roughly 10- to 30-fold to speaker level. Those levels, sound source, preamp/processor, and amplifier increase signal voltage in steps instead of all at once.

I read the three links you provided, but they didn't help me. What level (line, preamp, or amplifier) does the Hauptwerk gear/software work at? Can it be inserted as a sound source such as recorded music on a CD, a type of preamp/processor, or an amplifier?

http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/94/order/last_modified/limit/10
http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/17/order/last_modified/limit/10
http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/89/order/last_modified/limit/6
Here are some articles mostly focusing on the audio aspects of these systems, especially on the multichanneling of it all.

I'm guessing that Hauptwerk functions as a sound source at the line level, but I might not be right.

If my assumption is right, this sound source could be sent into pro-audio preamp/mixing gear, or into a separate home audio preamp. Further amplification could be done with loudspeakers (sub-woofer or monitors) that each contain their own built-in amplifiers. In my opinion, this would be the most flexible arrangement. Mind you that I'm unfamiliar with any of these virtual pipe organ systems.

 

[bradleybj09]

Like others who've posted on your question, I'm not clear just what kind of electronic gear a 'virtual pipe organ' is. In home audio, where recorded music playback is the goal, there are sound sources (CD, DVD, downloads from various online streaming services, FM radio, etc.), preamp/processing gear, amplification gear, and finally loud speakers.

In terms of signal level, the signal voltages go from low (roughly 0.1 to 0.2 Volts also known as "line level" voltage) in most analog signal sources – to the much higher voltages (roughly 1 to 100 Volts) required to drive loudspeakers. Preamps, among other things, also boost the signal from line level to preamp level, roughly 1 to 10 Volts. Amplifiers provide the final boost to roughly 10- to 30-fold to speaker level. Those levels, sound source, preamp/processor, and amplifier increase signal voltage in steps instead of all at once.

I read the three links you provided, but they didn't help me. What level (line, preamp, or amplifier) does the Hauptwerk gear/software work at? Can it be inserted as a sound source such as recorded music on a CD, a type of preamp/processor, or an amplifier?

It'll be a sound source. The software is basically just playing recorded .wav files (or something like it) for enabled stops when keys are pressed. So, it's sending a digital signal that consists of a bunch of sound-source-level signals destined for separate channels, as contracted between pipe mappings between the software and the audio interface.

Aside from needing the interface to which the software talks to map pipes, I may as well be playing a youtube video. I can plug-and-play with headphones, or I could plug a single speaker into the computer sound out, and hear the sound.

 

[Swerd]

Interesting. That's helpful, I'll keep it in mind. Maybe no on the bipolars then.

I did read where bipolar speakers were recommended. I could be wrong, and The Barde could be right.

 

[Swerd]

It'll be a sound source. The software is basically just playing recorded .wav files (or something like it) for enabled stops when keys are pressed. So, it's sending a digital signal that consists of a bunch of sound-source-level signals destined for separate channels, as contracted between pipe mappings between the software and the audio interface.

Aside from needing the interface to which the software talks to map pipes, I may as well be playing a youtube video. I can plug-and-play with headphones, or I could plug a single speaker into the computer sound out, and hear the sound.

Thanks, that helps.

While you were responding to my question, I edited my previous post to say:

… this sound source could be sent into pro-audio preamp/mixing gear, or into a separate home audio preamp. Further amplification could be done with loudspeakers (sub-woofer or monitors) that each contain their own built-in amplifiers. In my opinion, this would be the most flexible arrangement. Mind you that I'm unfamiliar with any of these virtual pipe organ systems.

You may have read it, but I wanted to be sure you noticed it.

 

[bradleybj09]

Thanks, that helps.

While you were responding to my question, I edited my previous post to say:
You may have read it, but I wanted to be sure you noticed it.

Heh, there isn't a lot out there to be 'familiar' with. Cameron's organ is an oddity, and the Trinity Church instrument plays on 86 channels with 15000 watts of amplification. Many people, at home, use headphones or not fantastic quality sound systems. Many of them are not playing on the (comparatively) expensive instrument samples with 32 foot pedals, reaching 16Hz. But, if I can afford to build it, I'm all in for insane pedal.

I agree - the consensus that is occasionally being reached here is that a handful (6?) of monitors/surrounds accompanying ideally 2 subs is what I'm aiming for. I'm just trying to learn how to manage the channels, the crossover with the subs, and crossing my fingers for a eureka moment on how to connect this to the TV/phones/music, too.

 

[Swerd]

Heh, there isn't a lot out there to be 'familiar' with. Cameron's organ is an oddity, and the Trinity Church instrument plays on 86 channels with 15000 watts of amplification. Many people, at home, use headphones or not fantastic quality sound systems. Many of them are not playing on the (comparatively) expensive instrument samples with 32 foot pedals, reaching 16Hz. But, if I can afford to build it, I'm all in for insane pedal.

I agree - the consensus that is occasionally being reached here is that a handful (6?) of monitors/surrounds accompanying ideally 2 subs is what I'm aiming for. I'm just trying to learn how to manage the channels, the crossover with the subs, and crossing my fingers for a eureka moment on how to connect this to the TV/phones/music, too.

To summarize… bradleybj09 wants to assemble a 'virtual pipe organ' using software and hardware (?) as described here:
http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/94/order/last_modified/limit/10
http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/17/order/last_modified/limit/10
http://www.contrebombarde.com/concerthall/home/view_cat/cat/3/sort/89/order/last_modified/limit/6

He would like to use home audio-type loudspeakers:

• Sub-woofers (2?) capable of going deep enough to play 16 Hz, and if they're too expensive at least 32 Hz.
• Six monitor type speakers with or without built-in amplification. Preferably costing about $250 each. With powered subs and monitor speakers, no additional amplification would be needed.

This organ simulator, called Hauptwerk, works similar to other standard digital sound source devices such as a CD player, but it isn't 2-channel. I'm guessing that any typical AV receiver or preamp/processor cannot easily handle such an input. At best, it might be awkward with an AVR. It might work better with a pro-sound mixing board, but I know nothing about pro-sound gear, and leave that subject for others.

And finally, our organ player would also like to incorporate an AV receiver or preamp/processor so he can also use most or all his speakers as a more or less typical home theater.

So the questions are:

• What sub woofers? Ideally, these subs would produce sound high enough for at least the 1st and 2nd harmonic overtones of primary tones as low as 16 or 32 Hz. 128 Hz is the 2nd harmonic of 32 Hz, and 256 Hz is the 3rd harmonic. The sub and crossover to the monitors would therefore be working somewhat higher than in a typical home theater system.
• What monitor speakers? Self-powered speakers, or what additional amps?
• Is pro-sound gear needed, or can an AV receiver or preamp/processor be used?
• What type of mixing board, pro-sound preamp, and electronic crossover can he use?
• How can an AV receiver or preamp/processor be incorporated?
• How can he run his Hauptwerk system as both a virtual pipe organ, and as a home theater set up?
• Is all this possible for $6000?

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm really skeptical of this whole business without throwing a ton of money at it.

By far the weakest link in the virtual organ is the bass, but the rest is not as good as the hype.

Speaker systems in general have a lot of trouble reproducing pipe organs.

The bass is a big issue. In the virtual organ the bass was nothing like a real pipe organ as the Q was too high.

I have only ever heard the bass of a pipe organ realistically reproduced at power by transmission line speakers. These really can get you there when the rest will not.

I'm not certain that this bipolar argument is correct. A pipe is an omni directional radiator, a bipolar speaker is not. Also no speaker encircles like a pipe does.

I think the virtual organ is far to tied to Def Tech speakers because they are bi-polar. Def tech make some of the very worst speakers on the planet and none of them good.

There are a lot of other issues. High on the list is the swell box, which is not a volume control alone, but also reduces the HF radiation as the swell louvres close. I don't know if the OPs software does this or not. The next issue is chiff. Tracker mechanical organs have this, electric action instruments generally do not and pneumatic action organs definitely do not. Chiff is what happens in a tracker organ when you do not entirely press the key or depress and release it more slowly. It is a feature that makes tracker organs especially attractive. I have no idea how you replicate that from sampled sounds.

I have carefully researched all this today. I will post good recordings I have found on YouTube. There is a good video of the Hauptwerk organ imitating the Caen Cavaille - Coll organ. The bass between that and the real organ is night and day. I think I know why. If you are sampling an instrument you have to record it at close range with a highly directional mic, to avoid the environment contaminating it too much. However the more directional a mic the worse its bass response.

I have some form on this as when my son second was in college doing his electrical engineering degree, we did a lot of instrument sampling to try and make better synthesisers. After a lot of work we became aware of the limitations. We did a lot of work on strings which are also omni directional radiators. The above issue was a big problem. The trumpet, which is a directional radiator was an easier prospect. This by the way was the impetus for my first DAW which was in 1994.

So I would recommend TL speakers. In this case for his room a pair of TLs that could reach 16 Hz, a pair optimized for 16 ft pipes and another for the 8 ft pipes.

The next problem with pipe organs is that they have enormous power in the mid and high high frequency range. The enormous power, especially of the eighteen century instruments can easily be death to tweeters. I burnt out a tweeter in the coaxial driver of my center speaker with Bach a few years ago. I made mods to the speaker and so far so good.

I do know my current set up with its huge power available to the mid range can get the job done. So far the the HF units have handled it OK. I'm very careful not to cross my tweeters too low. If you are an organ enthusiast never cross a tweeter below 2.5 K Hz and higher if you can.

In my Grand Forks home, I did have an Allen electric organ console that was two manual and pedals. I got it gratis after it was outed when its speaker and amp system bit the dust. I did some mods and played it though my dual TL speakers that are now my rear backs. I'm not a very good organist and learn pieces slowly. But I did have fun with it. One piece I had fun with was an early Italian echo sonata and I had it so the left and right speakers could answer each other. It would have fooled no one that it was a pipe organ, I enjoyed it. The most realistic aspect was the bass.

Lastly the major reason that I design the speakers I do is because I'm a pipe organ enthusiast, and always have been.

My system here reproduces the pipe organs with a realism that other even very good systems can not approach. It is the realism of the bass and its articulation that sets it apart.

Unfortunately the build of this system cost a lot more then $6000 and that was 13 years ago now.

However this post has caught my eye so to speak. If the OP is interested I would be prepared to work with him to design a custom system. He would need to visit here to see just how accurately this TL based system can reproduce pipe organs.

I'm going to make another post of my researches today of the organs he is particularly interested in and three others. I have only selected good performances and excellent recordings. This will enable members to see the scale of the engineering problem.

 

[TLS Guy]

As stated above I have researched the instruments the OP is particularly interested in. I also include some others.

First all Organs are unique. Organists have to familiarize themselves with each instrument, a process that can take up to a week. This is called registering the organ. I have been fortunate to have spent significant time with organ builders. The other thing about organs is they they come in definite regional "flavors" so to speak. This is known as voicing. There are significant differences between German, French, Scandinavian, Iberian, Italian and especially British instruments. In many ways the instruments do reflect the temperament of the regional inhabitants!

Probably the two extremes being represented by instruments from the Iberian peninsular and the British Isles. American organs over time have become increasingly eclectic reflecting the changing ethnic balance. Historically American instruments have tended strongly to the voicing of British instruments.

So here is what I have found today.

The first organ the OP mentioned was the Cavaille - Coll instrument in Caen Normandy, France. Until about 1835 organs were all mechanical action, with the keys and stops directly controlling sliders which let air from the wind chest to the pipes. An English builder Barker invented the pneumatic lever with allowed for air to pass from little below below the pipes operated by pneumatic pressure. When the electric relay appeared the electro pneumatic action became possible. In later years direct electric action was been developed dispensing with the troublesome bellows below the pipes. This allows for separation of divisions and console, but at the expense of delay in the action. As this was developed Henry Willis rebuilt half the organs of England, Harrison and Harrison giving him strong competition. Cavaille - Col did the same in France. As you will hear the voicing either side of the channel being very different. Cavaille - Coll's instruments had a much fiercer "bite". This is another example of the 21 miles to France from the UK being a much greater cultural divide than the 2,500 miles across the Atlantic. The difference in voicing of organs is stark.

So here is a good recording from YouTube of the Cavaille - Coll instrument in Caen.

Here is the Hauptwerk sampled copy of the Cavaile - Coll instrument in Notre Dame.

A. Cavaillé-Coll Virtual Pipe Organ

David Lines performing virtually on the Hauptwerk 3 Cavaillé-Coll virtual organ. Visit http://www.milandigitalaudio.com/notredame for more information and co...

www.youtube.com

Dame Gillian Weir demonstrating the Haarlem organ.

I have now selected a Silbermann organ. I love the Silbermann organs. They have a nice '"silvery" sound to them. I have selected the instrument from Feiberg Germany.

I have to say my favorite Teutonically voiced organ is the Schnitger organ in St. Laurence's church Alkamar Holland right off the cheese market.

One of my favorite organs is the Harrison and Harrison organ in Kings College Chapel England. This I think is their absolute masterpiece. The primary function of English organs is accompanying the cathedral choirs. So great control is required. Here the 22 year old Richard Gowers puts the newly restored organ through its paces.

I mentioned in the previous thread how the enclosed divisions must present difficulties for samplers. Some organs are totally enclosed behind swell boxes. The English Builder John Compton only built totally enclosed organs. Only one example is good working condition that has not been mucked about is the one at Downside Abbey, Stratton - on - the - Fosse, Somerset, England. I know that organ well as I was at school there from 1960 to 1964.

The composer Percy Whitlock who came from my home town of Rochester favored the Compton instruments. My mother knew Percy Whitlock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2DiHg7auzo

We happen to have a totally enclosed organ here in the Twin Cities. It is the Aeolian Skinner organ at the Northrop Auditorium on the campus of the University of Minnesota. This has also had a recent restoration.

You can hear it here playing this Elergy composed in the depth of the second world war by George Thalben - Ball in the depths of the second world war.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t1_oslCMc0

I hope you enjoy this compilation. Make sure you play it on your big rigs and not though computer Speakers!