Building a home audio system + virtual pipe organ. What do I need?

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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
Hi!
I am flipping a house that I'm going to move into, and am going to have my first big boy audio system. Most of the requirements, though, are driven by the pipe organ project that I'm building for the living room. This is a little bit of an essay, so thanks in advance for the help.

To sum up: I'm using Hauptwerk, a software that samples real instruments, plays via some kind of input (midi keyboards, pedals, whatever you want), and then goes through a computer, and then out of the audio from that computer. Most of that doesn't matter a whole lot, except to know that the audio output is made up of potentially hundreds of simultaneous audio files (each representing a single sampled pipe, and an organ can have thousands). Most of my reading from people who have created these projects themselves seems to indicate that many decent speakers and channels is preferable to a small amount of really nice speaker. Part of this is in the reproduction of a real instrument - the pipes are often in many places around the room, and the software can map per-pipe to different audio channels - and part of it is to help with destructive wave cancellations from all of the pipes playing simultaneously. I am not 100% sure what that means, but I get the gist of it, and maybe it's more meaningful to you. For those unfamiliar with pipe organs, the largest pipes (approximately 32 foot pipes) sound at about 16Hz. I have no interest in reproducing anything lower (the next down is 64', at 8Hz, but there are two of those in the world, they haven't been sampled, and I don't care).

So, I know I want/need a few things: A good sub, capable of 16Hz. Several (within reason for the space and design) regular treble speakers.
I'm NOT filling a large space... this is a 28'x20' living room.
The software maps to audio channels per-pipe, not by frequency. This has an interesting impact because the lowest pipes are not like a digitally produced low frequency, but rather are recorded in natural spaces and have a big of overtones and treble sound in them. I don't think I just want a normal sub to map these to, and lose all the treble sound.
The sub needs to be able to sustain these. I don't know how to see if this is or is not true for a certain sub, but it was brought up enough that I need to make sure of it. i.e. it isn't just for low short effects in movies.

I spoke to a home audio shop, but their expertise is focused in standard channeling (dolby, etc), and didn't have a lot of knowledge around manual crossover boxes, or even how I get the digital signal split between my own custom channel count.

The next hurdle: I also want this to be my actual home audio: Phones, TV, etc. also need to connect to these speakers. Can I just fork an analog cable from the "standard" home audio box, and from my organ "box" to the same speakers? Can I just use the same organ decoder box for all of it?

Here's what I have been able to learn so far, please correct what I have wrong:
  • For the bass:
    • The ideal situation would be a Definitive Technology tower with integrated sub and loudspeaker. I plug in one analog line (the organ software says "I'm sending everything from the low register to this speaker") and the speaker handles the crossover between sub and treble. The con: I'm spending $3k if I want one that hits 16Hz.
    • I do the crossover myself. I really like the SVS PB-3000 (unless that's overkill for the room and I can get away with the -2000? I do have neighbors, after all), and then I get some decent surround speaker, and a crossover box.
      • Should this be an active or passive crossover? I've seen these words, but to be honest I don't know enough to know what I need.
      • Does this even work as I'm expecting? I intend to basically diy my own version of the DT tower, and I'm not concerned with the asthetics of two speakers vs the one pretty tower.
  • For the treble:
    • I don't know, I guess a bunch of ~$250 surround speakers? This should fill the room evenly, so I don't think I want monitors. Imagine an occasional audience.
  • For the interface:
    • I'm making assumptions here, but what I think happens is that the software connects with the audio interface 'box', and then I'm able to map to the available channels. So, I probably have an HDMI coming out of the computer, into this interface/decoder/channel box, which has a bunch of analog cables coming out of it. I don't really know what I'm looking for here, and I don't know too well what to search for. How does this interact with the home audio box?
  • Other things, most of which I don't understand
    • How does this interact with preamps? (What actually are preamps, pretend you're talking to a fifth grader)
    • Do I get speakers with their own amps? Or run a single amplifier?
    • What else don't I know?
The overall functionality is that I press a key on a keyboard, and based on the drawn stops, many related "pipes" play - each pipe being and individual audio file. Each of these "pipes" is routed to only one speaker, always, except in the case of the crossover-driven sub/speaker, where there is a single analog channel and the crossover handles splitting frequencies to the speakers.

What ranges should I be aiming at the sub vs the treble speaker? For example, do I put all the 32 foot ranks (lowest 16Hz) and the bottom section of the 16 foot ranks (32Hz) on the sub?
Will two subs make a noticeable difference given my room size and use case? I'm upgrading from what is probably a $75 6:1 set, for comparison.

As far as orders of magnitude on price, I'd love something like $3k rather than something like $6k, if possible. Again, it's a small space, so other than the money on a good sub to hit 16hz, I'm not sure that it'll be thousands of dollars for the other speakers.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
So, let me get this straight, you wants 100's of individual speakers in order for each one to play a single specific audio file, all the hardware, amplification, decoding, and wiring to hook everything up, AND it has to cost under $6,000?!

If so, I think you need to reevaluate your goals and/or budget for this.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Um, holy crap.

From what I can decipher that you want, 6k ain't gonna cover it... as for subwoofage you can get more bang for your buck with Hsu than SVS.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
So, let me get this straight, you wants 100's of individual speakers in order for each one to play a single specific audio file, all the hardware, amplification, decoding, and wiring to hook everything up, AND it has to cost under $6,000?!

If so, I think you need to reevaluate your goals and/or budget for this.
No... No one in any sane mind would think an individual speaker for each sampled pipe. I'm talking about like 6-8 surround speakers, total.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
Um, holy crap.

From what I can decipher that you want, 6k ain't gonna cover it... as for subwoofage you can get more bang for your buck with Hsu than SVS.
Helpful, I'll check out Hsu. I'd like to know what/where I'm wrong. For example, a great sub for <$1500. Let's say 6 surround speakers, <$300 each. Anything I can find for a crossover box is <$200. I don't know what really exists for the digital>analog decoder for the custom channels, but that's why I'm here.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
So, let me get this straight, you wants 100's of individual speakers in order for each one to play a single specific audio file, all the hardware, amplification, decoding, and wiring to hook everything up, AND it has to cost under $6,000?!

If so, I think you need to reevaluate your goals and/or budget for this.
Also, honestly, super condescending to someone new to the forum/industry.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
No... No one in any sane mind would think an individual speaker for each sampled pipe. I'm talking about like 6-8 surround speakers, total.
16hz with authority will come down to the subs, (as mains will cost a boat load to achieve anywhere close) so dont skimp.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Other subs to consider.....Rythmik, Power Sound Audio, JTR, Deep Sea Sound, Seaton, Funk....
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
TLDR but where's the midrange in this? :)
That's what I'm here for - what does this mean? I'd assume the surrounds and the sub would be enough to cover what I need. Can you direct me to the kind of thing I'm looking for? From what I have read, most implementations of this only have subs and surrounds.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
16hz with authority will come down to the subs, (as mains will cost a boat load to achieve anywhere close) so dont skimp.
Right - 6-8 surrounds along with the sub. I don't want to get something totally needless, it isn't a huge space, and I have neighbors. But, I don't want it to be weak.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
That's what I'm here for - what does this mean? I'd assume the surrounds and the sub would be enough to cover what I need. Can you direct me to the kind of thing I'm looking for? From what I have read, most implementations of this only have subs and surrounds.
You said treble with subs, which leaves out a lot of frequencies in the middle :) Just an odd way to call a speaker only by the upper frequency range. You can add tower speakers or bookshelf sized speakers, but they will produce some of the bass, and midrange, and treble. As far as DTs....they barely make separate subs let alone the powered woofers in some of their speakers....I'd look elsewhere personally.

BTW 28x20x8 (assuming) is a large space for subs. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
You said treble with subs, which leaves out a lot of frequencies in the middle :) Just an odd way to call a speaker only by the upper frequency range. You can add tower speakers or bookshelf sized speakers, but they will produce some of the bass, and midrange, and treble. As far as DTs....they barely make separate subs let alone the powered woofers in some of their speakers....I'd look elsewhere personally.

BTW 28x20x8 (assuming) is a large space for subs. Try this article https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/subwoofer-room-size
Yeah, again, I'm not knowledgeable about the industry at all. I'm a musician and a software engineer. I just said 'trebles' because I am trying to say "the other speakers that aren't subwoofers" without appearing to specify 'theater' or 'surround' or 'monitor' speakers.
The main reason I mention DT is because of a crossover that happens AFTER the decoding. The software needs to be able to say "send these pipes to this analog channel", but there is enough range in there that it should be split between a sub and a regular speaker.
Would this kind of a speaker be the solution? https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/sr9040 (don't care about brand, it's just something I had open, trying to find the right category of speaker).
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
I enjoy Organ music a lot. ;) Not so much to want a virtual Pipe Organ in my room! :p

I think that a traditional 5.2.4 or 7.2.4 set up would be fine for this muliple use scenario. I am well familiar that pipes are usually almost a part of the structure in a way, and can be on the sides and behind the "audience," not just in front.
Sticking with a somewhat traditional layout will allow for the proper usage on AVR for all of your entertainment... though I am uncertain how that would play with your Virtual Organ processing.

A very respectable speaker system could be assembled for ~$5K with another 1K going towards 2 good quality subs. I would highly encourage you to NOT UNDERCUT the sub budget if you truly expect to have a good Low-C/CØ.
If a receiver needs to come out of that 5K, you can probably still build a respectable 11-channel system for ~$3K.

I would also suggest that any other gear not be included in the budget for the speakers and subs. Though true you could still scale the cost down with some sharp shopping... you will bump up to the point of diminishing quality... And you don't want to ruin your experience by not getting your Pipe Organ to sound like a Pipe Organ.

Now... Your room, if it is completely closed off with 8' ceilings, and no other openings is near 5000'3. That is a very large room for Home Audio. No single sub will do great work in that size room.

I'm going to stop there.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yeah, again, I'm not knowledgeable about the industry at all. I'm a musician and a software engineer. I just said 'trebles' because I am trying to say "the other speakers that aren't subwoofers" without appearing to specify 'theater' or 'surround' or 'monitor' speakers.
The main reason I mention DT is because of a crossover that happens AFTER the decoding. The software needs to be able to say "send these pipes to this analog channel", but there is enough range in there that it should be split between a sub and a regular speaker.
Would this kind of a speaker be the solution? https://www.definitivetechnology.com/products/sr9040 (don't care about brand, it's just something I had open, trying to find the right category of speaker).
I really don't know why you want to do this with multiple speakers, tho (at least not without a surround system processor). Sounds more like a pro studio setup than home audio....I just am not a fan of DT in any case.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
I enjoy Organ music a lot. ;) Not so much to want a virtual Pipe Organ in my room! :p

I think that a traditional 5.2.4 or 7.2.4 set up would be fine for this muliple use scenario. I am well familiar that pipes are usually almost a part of the structure in a way, and can be on the sides and behind the "audience," not just in front.
Sticking with a somewhat traditional layout will allow for the proper usage on AVR for all of your entertainment... though I am uncertain how that would play with your Virtual Organ processing.

A very respectable speaker system could be assembled for ~$5K with another 1K going towards 2 good quality subs. I would highly encourage you to NOT UNDERCUT the sub budget if you truly expect to have a good Low-C/CØ.
If a receiver needs to come out of that 5K, you can probably still build a respectable 11-channel system for ~$3K.

I would also suggest that any other gear not be included in the budget for the speakers and subs. Though true you could still scale the cost down with some sharp shopping... you will bump up to the point of diminishing quality... And you don't want to ruin your experience by not getting your Pipe Organ to sound like a Pipe Organ.

Now... Your room, if it is completely closed off with 8' ceilings, and no other openings is near 5000'3. That is a very large room for Home Audio. No single sub will do great work in that size room.

I'm going to stop there.
Thanks, this is very helpful. Can you answer these specifically?
  • What kinds of speakers are the 5(7), 2, and 4. Literally just a keyword for my sake for finding the kind of speaker that fits the role.
  • Can you make any recommendations about the crossover that I'm trying to attempt? A single analog which is then split between a sub and a regular speaker.
  • Do you know anything about the kind of interface that I would need to get, let's say 7 or 9 channels? Some kind of digital signal in, and that many analog out for the speakers.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
You might peruse various products at miniDSP.com for processing options.
 
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bradleybj09

Audioholic Intern
I really don't know why you want to do this with multiple speakers, tho (at least not without a surround system processor). Sounds more like a pro studio setup than home audio....I just am not a fan of DT in any case.
That's fine, I totally understand. I'm not attached by the brand either, it was literally just a search result that I was using as a basis. As far as multiple speakers - I don't 100% know, but that is the consensus from people that have implemented these systems. I believe it has to do with the many simultaneous sound files being delivered, and more speakers helping remove 'destructive wave cancellations'. Is this buzzword-y garbage? I just don't know.
The other reason is to emulate the multiple-sound-source of a real instrument.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Sounds more like a pro studio setup than home audio
Yup. Not gonna sugar coat it: probably shouldn't mix the two. I was trying to find a helpful solution, but frankly, OP, you are pushing up on the similar conversation as when people want to do Karaoke Night on their rigs. Not a good idea.

There was a thread about BHPhoto I think having a great deal on some JBL studio monitors. You would still need subs and processing... but maybe that.
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Samurai
Also, honestly, super condescending to someone new to the forum/industry.
Honestly, you never once mentioned how many speakers or channels you were looking to use, so I felt it was an honest question. I'm highlighting some statements from your first post that made me think you wanted tons and tons of speakers. There was never any mention that I saw of a speaker handling multiple pipes, so sorry if I didn't understand that.

the audio output is made up of potentially hundreds of simultaneous audio files (each representing a single sampled pipe, and an organ can have thousands). Most of my reading from people who have created these projects themselves seems to indicate that many decent speakers and channels is preferable to a small amount of really nice speaker. Part of this is in the reproduction of a real instrument - the pipes are often in many places around the room, and the software can map per-pipe to different audio channels - and part of it is to help with destructive wave cancellations from all of the pipes playing simultaneously.

The software maps to audio channels per-pipe, not by frequency.

digital signal split between my own custom channel count.


The overall functionality is that I press a key on a keyboard, and based on the drawn stops, many related "pipes" play - each pipe being and individual audio file. Each of these "pipes" is routed to only one speaker, always, except in the case of the crossover-driven sub/speaker, where there is a single analog channel and the crossover handles splitting frequencies to the speakers.
Knowing further what you want I think you might actually be well served by a complete HSU speaker and sub system here. One of the systems here: Maybe the 5.1 and pick up a second sub

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/hybrid15-CCBpkg.html

My thinking behind this goes as follows:

The VTF 15h MK2 is a good performer down to 16 Hz. Two of them will help to even out room nulls and modes, giving more even bass throughout the whole listening space.

The CCB-8 because it's a coaxial speaker and is modestly priced, it also has great dispersion and due to their size will be easy for you to place them throughout the room.
 

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