Marantz SR7010 - Protection mode , blew transistors twice!

[TLS Guy]

I agree the speaker could have been damaged and need to be checked but disagree on the 100 V thing, let's not exaggerate too much.

Well it will be in the 70 volt to 90 ball park.

 

[PENG]

Well it will be in the 70 volt to 90 ball park.

Haha now you are talking, 70 would be close.. Its not fair really, as I have the schematics.

 

[PENG]

Do you have a cheap speaker to play with? If you do, hook it up with a short pair of wires, just hard wire them to the top rear left terminal and you can test that channel for a few hours without risking the more expensive B&W speaker and the output transistors.

If it still blew the same transistors then you have a legit case against Panurgy.

 

[AVUser001]

Do you have a cheap speaker to play with? If you do, hook it up with a short pair of wires, just hard wire them to the top rear left terminal and you can test that channel for a few hours without risking the more expensive B&W speaker and the output transistors.

If it still blew the same transistors then you have a legit case against Panurgy.

Unfortunately nothing cheap (have Focals,B&W,ML,DefTechs), may have to buy something cheap.., but its a great idea, Thanks!

I'll also buy that meter @TLS Guy recommended to test the B&Ws, since the Denon/Atmos/Audyssey tests have been OK, so far. Probably will replace that speaker cable also, when I am at it..

..there goes my vacation!

 

[PENG]

Unfortunately nothing cheap (have Focals,B&W,ML,DefTechs), may have to buy something cheap.., but its a great idea, Thanks!

I'll also buy that meter @TLS Guy recommended to test the B&Ws, since the Denon/Atmos/Audyssey tests have been OK, so far. Probably will replace that speaker cable also, when I am at it..

..there goes my vacation!

Regardless of what you end up trying, have the volume start at minimum. If protection mode is not triggered, then you can turn it up gradually.

You can buy a really cheap speaker from places like Good will, something like that.

 

[AVUser001]

I can tell you those Dayton speaker testers are excellent at uncovering even the most subtle VC problems.

My concern is that unless you are very careful then you may keep going round in circles. Don't be surprised if the Marantz is more fragile than the older Denon..

You seem to have a nice system. I would strongly advise you to move up to a Marntz pre/pro and use dedicated power amps to each speaker.

I personally use Quad amps. That is because they are designed from square one to be highly robust and tolerant of a wide variety of loads. Even so I take great care NOT to put protection to the test.

@TLS Guy , Thanks for your insight.

Looks like that Dayton speaker test system is Windows based. I'm only on MAC.

Are you aware of such for MAC OS? IF not , I'd have look into something like Parallels for running Windows on MAC.

Yes, separates(pre/pro + power amp) is something I've been thinking too, for my next round..,just makes it a more flexible system, decoupling the ever changing pre/pro from amplification and allows for higher tolerance when it comes to load. Dont mean to rekindle a debate, but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp. In the present config, Emotiva XPA-5 has taken the bulk of the amplification with Front/Center/Surrounds..,leaving the AVR only for the Surround Backs & Ceiling speakers( and still trouble !)...Anyways, thats a topic for later.

 

[AVUser001]

You can buy a really cheap speaker from places like Good will, something like that.

I'dnt go that far , esp given all the recent trouble. Dont know what I am getting at Goodwill!..,will try somewhere else.

 

[PENG]

@TLS Guy , Thanks for your insight.

Looks like that Dayton speaker test system is Windows based. I'm only on MAC.
View attachment 32982

Are you aware of such for MAC OS? IF not , I'd have look into something like Parallels for running Windows on MAC.

Yes, separates(pre/pro + power amp) is something I've been thinking too, for my next round..,just makes it a more flexible system, decoupling the ever changing pre/pro from amplification and allows for higher tolerance when it comes to load. Dont mean to rekindle a debate, but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp. In the present config, Emotiva XPA-5 has taken the bulk of the amplification with Front/Center/Surrounds..,leaving the AVR only for the Surround Backs & Ceiling speakers( and still trouble !)...Anyways, thats a topic for later.

Sorry to repeat myself so many times that I went from the powerful avr-4308ci (like you, only drove the surrounds), to separates av7005, then av8801, now back to avr-x4400h used as prepro only. Will probably never go back to prepro any more, too much money only to get outdated on 3 years, no gain, only loss.

My biggest regret in my HT experience was the AV8801, paid well over 3K, now used in one of my 2 Ch system. The AVR-X4400H actually performed better.

 

[AVUser001]

Sorry to repeat myself so many times that I went from the powerful avr-4308ci (like you, only drove the surrounds), to separates av7005, then av8801, now back to avr-x4400h used as prepro only. Will probably never go back to prepro any more, too much money only to get outdated on 3 years, no gain, only loss.

My biggest regret in my HT experience was the AV8801, paid well over 3K, now used in one of my 2 Ch system. The AVR-X4400H actually performed better.

Think I said "but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp" , for the same reason..
A pre/pro doesnt have to be a dedicated expensive one, a good AVR with amps turned off , would do , is my belief. Could use the cost differential towards a good amp , for all the 11 channels.

 

[TLS Guy]

Think I said "but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp" , for the same reason..
A pre/pro doesnt have to be a dedicated expensive one, a good AVR with amps turned off , would do , is my belief. Could use the cost differential towards a good amp , for all the 11 channels.

Your reasoning is not correct any longer and I don't think i ever was. The Marantz SR8012 is $3000 near enough. The Marantz 7705 which I recently bought is $2200. I bought mine for $1750 from a brick and mortar store I have had a long term relationship with.

The SR 8012 is a miserable thing.

These are the specs.

Front: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Center: 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround back / Height1 / Height2: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Output connectors: 4 – 16 Ω/ohms

And you have to download the manual to get that information.

Now the max power consumption is 780 watts. So lets be generous and give it a 75% efficiency and it would likely be less than that, its all channels driven rating into 4 ohms would be 50 watts per channel. More likely it would be nearer 40 watts. If put to the test the probability of it blowing up is high.

So with my 7705 connected to my 7 Quad 909 amps and a couple of Quad 405-2 amps would give me a total of 3,900 watts all channels driven into four ohms.

Now with obsolescence, and that happens, I still have my power amps. So when I added the four Atmos speakers I just pressed a couple of Quad 405-II amps into service that I have owned for years. I'm on my fourth generation of pre pros, but the amps are the same.

I reckon this is no contest as to the separates being the better choice economically and functionally. Actually the receiver option is pathetic.

With the new upmixers, as I pointed out a lot of power can and does get out to all speakers.

This is an example in an account of what I recently experienced.

I streamed the Festival of Nine Lessons and Carols from Kings College Cambridge at 9:00 AM Christmas Eve, live from the BBC. Technically and musically it was a wonderful broadcast. Musically the choristers of the UK own Christmas.

Again I'm totally blown away by the Dolby upmixer. I could sense the procession in and you could easily "visualize" the choristers in the left right choir stalls, not only left and right but going away from you.

The main congregation behind the choir screen was firmly coming from behind in the numbers the congregation joined in. The ceiling speakers were highly effective, you had a perfect sense of the reverberation from the high vaulted ceilings in Kings. How these new upmixers manage this degree of realism from two channel I have no idea. To me its incredible. So I guess if you want the "Full Monty" the days of small surrounds and rear backs and one power supply in receivers is over. All 18 amps seem to have worked pretty hard on this one.

 

[PENG]

Your reasoning is not correct any longer and I don't think i ever was. The Marantz SR8012 is $3000 near enough. The Marantz 7705 which I recently bought is $2200. I bought mine for $1750 from a brick and mortar store I have had a long term relationship with.

If you based everything on list price then I can't disagree with you on this. I replaced my >C$3,000 Marantz AV8801 that was an ex flag ship with an AVR-X4400H for less than half that amount and actually prefer the results. The SR7013 that has the same DSP, DAC, ADC, preamp and power amp circuitry and components as your AV7705 has been available 3 times this year for less than UD$1,000 at Bestbuy.ca and Amazon.ca. That's much better value than the AV7705 that you paid $2,200 for because that means a potential buyer could use that same $1,750 plus a few hundreds more to add a 200 WX3 Monolith to the SR7013, that's just an example.

The SR 8012 is a miserable thing.

These are the specs.

Front: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Center: 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Surround back / Height1 / Height2: 140 W + 140 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.05 % T.H.D.) 175 W + 175 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.) Output connectors: 4 – 16 Ω/ohms

Miserable? That's just your subjective opinion obviously, and a little extreme for many people including Gene who is also an advocate of "separates",.. I suspect... Nothing wrong with the power specs if you compare that to many so called "separates". Also, I am quite sure you would ignore everything except the 140 W 8 ohm 20-20,000 Hz 0.05% THD anyway.

If you look at the measured THD+N, they did out performed their specs so I don't see the issue except that as I have commented before, the whole thing about amp power output and power consumption specs are inadequate to begin with, for reasons that need a separate thread to discuss.

And you have to download the manual to get that information.

That's a good thing, those who want the paper copy that might harm the environment can get one but they have to, and should, pay for it.

Now the max power consumption is 780 watts. So lets be generous and give it a 75% efficiency and it would likely be less than that, its all channels driven rating into 4 ohms would be 50 watts per channel. More likely it would be nearer 40 watts. If put to the test the probability of it blowing up is high.

75% is about right at rated output, but you are incorrectly assuming 780 W is the power consumption at rated output. I don't know what that number is, but I am sure it is not 780 W. D&M did provide a little more info about the power consumption for the AVR-X8500H at rated output, and it was much higher. You can search the info if you are interested to know.

So with my 7705 connected to my 7 Quad 909 amps and a couple of Quad 405-2 amps would give me a total of 3,900 watts all channels driven into four ohms.

We all know your love for the 909, I wouldn't mind one to try out too, but if someone (e.g. one recent poster..) who has the volume rarely above -20, he wouldn't even need 39 W (except for the 20 dB peaks), let alone 3,900 W. Voltage/current not called for simply won't be there are the transistor output for the load that is demanding much less.

Actually the receiver option is pathetic.

And I think you are being ridiculously extreme making such a general statement. For those who have money to spend on movie/music entertainment/enjoyment you may be right, but for those who don't, receiver is a good option for them so they can enjoy the same for much less. Can't you at least recognize that fact?

 

[PENG]

Think I said "but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp" , for the same reason..
A pre/pro doesnt have to be a dedicated expensive one, a good AVR with amps turned off , would do , is my belief. Could use the cost differential towards a good amp , for all the 11 channels.

I noted what you said, simply echoing some of your points..

 

[PENG]

@TLS Guy , Thanks for your insight.

Looks like that Dayton speaker test system is Windows based. I'm only on MAC.
View attachment 32982

Are you aware of such for MAC OS? IF not , I'd have look into something like Parallels for running Windows on MAC.

Yes, separates(pre/pro + power amp) is something I've been thinking too, for my next round..,just makes it a more flexible system, decoupling the ever changing pre/pro from amplification and allows for higher tolerance when it comes to load. Dont mean to rekindle a debate, but I could always buy a reasonably priced AVR and just use it , for pre/pro and leave all the amplification to power amp. In the present config, Emotiva XPA-5 has taken the bulk of the amplification with Front/Center/Surrounds..,leaving the AVR only for the Surround Backs & Ceiling speakers( and still trouble !)...Anyways, thats a topic for later.

First of all, while that is a nice toy, do you really need it to test your CCM683 that you already know it's specified minimum impedance is 4.5 Ohm? By the way, is that speaker easily accessible. If it is, did you remove it to have a careful to say if there are signs of burn mark(s). If I understood right you heard a pop from that speaker right? That pop could have been due to a short at the speaker end or as TLS mentioned, caused by the output transistor when it blew.

If your top left (the suspect) measured approximately 4.5 ohm and exactly the same as the top right, then it is safe to power them up to compare their freq response next for further assessment. If you haven't use REW yet, it is easy, and is a freeware, though you do need to buy a mic.

So it they measure the same 4.5 ohm, again that's just the woofer resistance, and the FR looks the same, then your speaker is fine. I can't see a damage tweeter and/or woofer would produce the same FR as an undamaged one. Using REW you can crank up the volume to get say 85 dB output or even higher if you want to make sure the speaker works well at higher output levels.

Before you do the REW measurements though, I would still use a cheap speaker, even one without enclosure to verify the amp first and then power up with volume already set to minimum.

Then when you measure the suspected speaker, use a brand new pair of wire just to be sure the existing wire may be the problem, i.e. having some mysterious intermittent "short" for whatever reason.

Now back to the DATS V3 that is apparently on sale for $129. You should be able to run it on your Mac using bootcamp to dual boot it. That's what I have done with my Mac and it has been flawless, no issue with updates to the most current version 1909.

If you have not looked into it before, check it out following the link:

Install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp Assistant - Apple Support (CA)

Learn how to install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp.

support.apple.com

 

[everettT]

First of all, while that is a nice toy, do you really need it to test your CCM683 that you already know it's specified minimum impedance is 4.5 Ohm? By the way, is that speaker easily accessible. If it is, did you remove it to have a careful to say if there are signs of burn mark(s). If I understood right you heard a pop from that speaker right? That pop could have been due to a short at the speaker end or as TLS mentioned, caused by the output transistor when it blew.

If your top left (the suspect) measured approximately 4.5 ohm and exactly the same as the top right, then it is safe to power them up to compare their freq response next for further assessment. If you haven't use REW yet, it is easy, and is a freeware, though you do need to buy a mic.

So it they measure the same 4.5 ohm, again that's just the woofer resistance, and the FR looks the same, then your speaker is fine. I can't see a damage tweeter and/or woofer would produce the same FR as an undamaged one. Using REW you can crank up the volume to get say 85 dB output or even higher if you want to make sure the speaker works well at higher output levels.

Before you do the REW measurements though, I would still use a cheap speaker, even one without enclosure to verify the amp first and then power up with volume already set to minimum.

Then when you measure the suspected speaker, use a brand new pair of wire just to be sure the existing wire may be the problem, i.e. having some mysterious intermittent "short" for whatever reason.

Now back to the DATS V3 that is apparently on sale for $129. You should be able to run it on your Mac using bootcamp to dual boot it. That's what I have done with my Mac and it has been flawless, no issue with updates to the most current version 1909.

If you have not looked into it before, check it out following the link:

Install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp Assistant - Apple Support (CA)

Learn how to install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp.

support.apple.com

Just installed Win 10 pro on an external hard drive with boot camp on my daughter's new macbook pro and it works like a charm. Her major requires windows based programs and I'd recommend it for everyone that wants to run audio software.

 

[TLS Guy]

If you based everything on list price then I can't disagree with you on this. I replaced my >C$3,000 Marantz AV8801 that was an ex flag ship with an AVR-X4400H for less than half that amount and actually prefer the results. The SR7013 that has the same DSP, DAC, ADC, preamp and power amp circuitry and components as your AV7705 has been available 3 times this year for less than UD$1,000 at Bestbuy.ca and Amazon.ca. That's much better value than the AV7705 that you paid $2,200 for because that means a potential buyer could use that same $2,200 to add a 200 WX3 Monolith to the SR7013, that's just an example.



Miserable? That's just your subjective opinion obviously, and a little extreme for many people including Gene who is also an advocate of "separates",.. I suspect... Nothing wrong with the power specs if you compare that to many so called "separates". Also, I am quite sure you would ignore everything except the 140 W 8 ohm 20-20,000 Hz 0.05% THD anyway.

If you look at the measured THD+N, they did out performed their specs so I don't see the issue except that as I have commented before, the whole thing about amp power output and power consumption specs are inadequate to begin with, for reasons that need a separate thread to discuss.



That's a good thing, those who want the paper copy that might harm the environment can get one but they have to, and should, pay for it.



75% is about right at rated output, but you are incorrectly assuming 780 W is the power consumption at rated output. I don't know what that number is, but I am sure it is not 780 W. D&M did provide a little more info about the power consumption for the AVR-X8500H at rated output, and it was much higher. You can search the info if you are interested to know.



We all know your love for the 909, I wouldn't mind one to try out too, but if someone (e.g. one recent poster..) who has the volume rarely above -20, he wouldn't even need 39 W (except for the 20 dB peaks), let alone 3,900 W. Voltage/current not called for simply won't be there are the transistor output for the load that is demanding much less.



And I think you are being ridiculously extreme making such a general statement. For those who have money to spend on movie/music entertainment/enjoyment you may be right, but for those who don't, receiver is a good option for them so they can enjoy the same for much less. Can't you at least recognize that fact?

As stated in the first paragraph, I paid $1750 for my 7705. I'm really pleased with it by the way and I so need balanced and unbalanced outputs anyway. For me this is a non issue, as a receiver could not be used as a pre/pro in my system.

 

[PENG]

As stated in the first paragraph, I paid $1750 for my 7705. I'm really pleased with it by the way and I so need balanced and unbalanced outputs anyway. For me this is a non issue, as a receiver could not be used as a pre/pro in my system.

Actually I noticed that but somehow still typed $2,200, will edit to avoid misleading others.. $1,750 for a brand new $1,750 is an excellent deal though for people who don't want to use receivers.

 

[AVUser001]

Your reasoning is not correct any longer and I don't think i ever was. The Marantz SR8012 is $3000 near enough. The Marantz 7705 which I recently bought is $2200. I bought mine for $1750 from a brick and mortar store I have had a long term relationship with.

@TLS Guy , looks like you have misunderstood what I wrote. Like I mentioned, I like separates. Not against separates at all.
Its just the choice of pre/pro, where I indicated, I could go for a reasonably priced ( & well rated) AVR like X4500h for ~$1K , to use it just as a pre/pro, skipping the on-board amps ..and use the cost differential versus a dedicated pre/pro(in $3-4K range) towards a better ( & more) power amps, to drive ALL the speakers including surrounds & ceilings.

I'm sure a dedicated high-end pre/pro might have a slight advantage in certain areas, but to most consumers, the incremental difference may not be worth it. I cant see myself spending $3-4K on a kit , that depreciates quickly and one that gets tech-refreshed every year or so.

Its much easier to replace a $1K unit with ever changing technology(eg HDMI 1.5, 2.0a, 2.0b , 2.1 etc), than to replace a $3-4K unit. Plus I get to keep my power amps, for years, like you've stated.

This way (ie AVR(minus onboard Amps) as Pre/Pro + Power Amps) , I can get the best of both worlds..,the flexibility and power of separates and economies of scale of AVRs, without loosing much feature/functionality.

So with my 7705 connected to my 7 Quad 909 amps and a couple of Quad 405-2 amps would give me a total of 3,900 watts all channels driven into four ohms.

Now with obsolescence, and that happens, I still have my power amps. So when I added the four Atmos speakers I just pressed a couple of Quad 405-II amps into service that I have owned for years. I'm on my fourth generation of pre pros, but the amps are the same.

Right and we could get the same power with the hybrid approach? (ie AVR(minus Amp) as Pre-Pro + Power Amp).
I could keep replacing AVRs as tech evolves rapidly and keep the amps.

This is an example in an account of what I recently experienced.
So I guess if you want the "Full Monty" the days of small surrounds and rear backs and one power supply in receivers is over. All 18 amps seem to have worked pretty hard on this one.

Thanks for sharing your experience.. Again, this is not a AVR vs Separates argument. Just the selection of pre/pro(dedicated vs AVR(minus onboard amp) , to go with the power amps.

 

[AVUser001]

By the way, is that speaker easily accessible. If it is, did you remove it to have a careful to say if there are signs of burn mark(s). If I understood right you heard a pop from that speaker right? That pop could have been due to a short at the speaker end or as TLS mentioned, caused by the output transistor when it blew.

Yes its accessible. I inspected it through the drop ceiling, without taking it out . Dont see any burn marks, nor did I smell anything when I heard the pop, last month. Been playing to it, with the alternate AVR, no issues thus far.

Before you do the REW measurements though, I would still use a cheap speaker, even one without enclosure to verify the amp first and then power up with volume already set to minimum.

Yes, thats the current action plan, awaiting the delivery of speakers in a day or so.

Then when you measure the suspected speaker, use a brand new pair of wire just to be sure the existing wire may be the problem, i.e. having some mysterious intermittent "short" for whatever reason.

Yep, have spare Mediabridge 12AWG speaker cables, that I plan to use.

Now back to the DATS V3 that is apparently on sale for $129. You should be able to run it on your Mac using bootcamp to dual boot it. That's what I have done with my Mac and it has been flawless, no issue with updates to the most current version 1909.
If you have not looked into it before, check it out following the link:

Install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp Assistant - Apple Support (CA)

Learn how to install Windows 10 on your Mac with Boot Camp.

support.apple.com

Yes, thats another choice, I had used Bootcamp on my MAC, many years ago, very well aware of it...twice had issues(dont remember details now) and decided to completely remove it and just invested in MAC apps, for the simplicity. There's few I miss from the Windows world, but can live with it.
Maybe things have improved with Bootcamp in the recent versions..,will have another look at it.

 

[PENG]

Maybe things have improved with Bootcamp in the recent versions..,will have another look at it.

I think you are right, I seemed to remember some minor glitches in the beginning but don't remember the details. I don't know if it is bootcamp that got better or windows, all I know is, I have no issues with Windows 10 build 1609 and that's the latest.

It is easy to remove anyway if you still don't like it, and as everettT mentioned, you can install it on an external drive, even a USB thumb drive. The more important point seems to be, whether it is worth spending $337.5 even at its current sale price. To me it is worth it if you are a loudspeaker designer or at least build speakers as a hobby, but just for what you need now I am sure the multi-meter and some FR plots afterwards are more than enough.

 

[AVUser001]

Yes its accessible. I inspected it through the drop ceiling, without taking it out . Dont see any burn marks, nor did I smell anything when I heard the pop, last month. Been playing to it, with the alternate AVR, no issues thus far.

Just took the bad boy out.., dont see any burnt marks anywhere