Marantz SR7010 - Protection mode , blew transistors twice!

[AVUser001]

Actually I need some clarification here.., I had made a note of the speaker connections before sending the AVR for repair.
The REAR LEFT HEIGHT was actually connected to the HEIGHT 2 LEFT on the AVR.

If thats the case, will it still Reassign the FRONT LEFT to drive the Rear Left Height ? Arent those separate dedicated channels or they sharing the same o/p circuit(transistors) on the board ?

View attachment 32936

@PENG , can you pls clarify my question above.., Thanks

Assuming these are dedicated channels, then the REAR LEFT HEIGHT B&W speakers connected to HEIGHT 2 LEFT terminals on the AVR, wouldnt have blown the FRONT LEFT transistors? , unless they're sharing the components on the board for whatever reason.
Is there a reason for Marantz to reassign the FRONT LEFTs to REAR LEFT HEIGHT, when there is a dedicated HEIGHT 2 LEFT channel, to which I have connected, for the Height channels.

 

[AVUser001]

Everything seems to be pointing toward a connection issue.

Hi , can you elaborate this connection issue ?

This is an existing 7.1.4 HT setup I've done years back and working fine with Atmos , with no issues until now.
Furthermore , with exactly the same speakers/cabling & connections, I'm able to play to ALL speakers, with no issue , using an alternate AVR, like I've mentioned on this post, several times..

 

[AVUser001]

You didn't connect the AVR and the Emotiva to the same speaker wires, did you? You can't do that.

Obviously not. Not sure where I implied that..
I may be new to the forum, not new to HomeTheater . This is not a new setup, something I've setup years back & working fine in a 7.1.4 setup.

Like I have posted earlier, Marantz's pre-outs for FL,FR,Center,SL,SR goes to the Amp, which then feeds the corresponding 5 channels. AVR's remaining Surround Back, Height1, Height2 channels feed my Atmos ceiling & Surround back speakers.

Thanks

 

[lovinthehd]

Sounds like the Marantz has issues.

 

[PENG]

@PENG , can you pls clarify my question above.., Thanks

Assuming these are dedicated channels, then the REAR LEFT HEIGHT B&W speakers connected to HEIGHT 2 LEFT terminals on the AVR, wouldnt have blown the FRONT LEFT transistors? , unless they're sharing the components on the board for whatever reason.
Is there a reason for Marantz to reassign the FRONT LEFTs to REAR LEFT HEIGHT, when there is a dedicated HEIGHT 2 LEFT channel, to which I have connected, for the Height channels.

I am not sure if I understand you question correctly. If your rear left height B&W speaker was connected to the "HEIGHT 2 LEFT" terminals on the AVR" then it was connected to the Front left output transistors as I thought you have also confirmed that the "Pre-outs" were set to "Front" in the amp assign menu. That collaborates well with the fact that the front left output transistors were the ones blown twice. Am I missing something?

Edit: I think I understand your point now, please read the Owner's instruction manual page 70:

You can see that the "dedicated" amps for FWR/FWL could have been set to FDR/FDL, ie. Height 1, so the Height 2 would be connected to the FL/FR. Again, a photo of the amp assign setting may help clarify this.

It may help clear things up a little if you post a photo of your amp assign setting screen. Just so you know what I am referring to, below is mine. I don't have the luxury to mount them in the ceiling, but I hang them from the ceiling so they are still more "top" then "height".

You can see that the way I have it set up, my top rear speakers are in fact connected to the "HEIGHT 2" terminals. I bet yours ("rear height" in you case) were/are too.

Now I have a question for you. Those B&W speakers are ceiling mount speakers and I assume you did install them in the ceiling. So why did you select "Heights" instead of "top"?

 

[PENG]

Sounds like the Marantz has issues.

I guess anything is possible but I can't picture how the output transistors would blow twice in one month unless there is a short or a severe overcurrent event that could cause damage so quickly that the protection mode could not shut it down fast enough. Even a 1 ohm load cannot cause them to blow so quickly.

 

[lovinthehd]

I guess anything is possible but I can't picture how the output transistors would blow twice in one month unless there is a short or a severe overcurrent event that could cause damage so quickly that the protection mode could not shut it down fast enough. Even a 1 ohm load cannot cause them to blow so quickly.

Just seems it's not what's connected to it doing it, tho....

 

[PENG]

Just seems it's not what's connected to it doing it, tho....

Got you, but I think he needs to double check his amp assign configuration. I still think his rear height left was in fact connected to the front left. D&M's owner's instruction on the amp assign thing has never been clear and are missing information. That's why I asked for the screen photo. For better clarity, I edited my post.

 

[AVUser001]

I am not sure if I understand you question correctly. If your rear left height B&W speaker was connected to the "HEIGHT 2 LEFT" terminals on the AVR" then it was connected to the Front left output transistors as I thought you have also confirmed that the "Pre-outs" were set to "Front" in the amp assign menu. That collaborates well with the fact that the front left output transistors were the ones blown twice. Am I missing something?

@PENG , when I say HEIGHT 1 & HEIGHT 2 , I mean the speaker terminals on the AVR, thats what they're named. I didnt use the actual Height channels, but Height 1/2 connected to TOP FRONT & TOP REAR Speakers..
, as outlined on page 60 of the manual, but with the Surround backs included,

So HEIGHT 1 from AVR went to Top FRONT L/R & HEIGHT 2 went to TOP REAR L/R , as shown above.

Edit: I think I understand your point now, please read the Owner's instruction manual page 70:

Page 70 refers to two sets of "Dolby Atmos Speakers" , which dont apply to me. These are not Atmos enabled speakers("bouncy house" as Gene calls them), but regular speakers mounted on ceiling.

It may help clear things up a little if you post a photo of your amp assign setting screen.
You can see that the way I have it set up, my top rear speakers are in fact connected to the "HEIGHT 2" terminals. I bet yours ("rear height" in you case) were/are too.

Unfortunately, looks like the AVR repair has reset all the configurations to default. I need to do them from scratch. I just have the physical connections noted , before I sent to repair ..and these were the Connections and yes , like yours, my Top Rears are connected to Height 2:

In the Amp assign section, Floor layout would have been set to "5Ch & SB" for 7.1 Channels and "Height Sp" to "4Ch" , for the ceiling speakers.

from Page 66 of the manual, highlighted my Config.

Now I have a question for you. Those B&W speakers are ceiling mount speakers and I assume you did install them in the ceiling. So why did you select "Heights" instead of "top"?

No , I didnt select HEIGHT, but TOP FRONT, TOP REAR , as shown above.

Thanks much, for your time on this..

 

[TLS Guy]

@PENG , when I say HEIGHT 1 & HEIGHT 2 , I mean the speaker terminals on the AVR, thats what they're named. I didnt use the actual Height channels, but Height 1/2 connected to TOP FRONT & TOP REAR Speakers..
, as outlined on page 60 of the manual, but with the Surround backs included,

View attachment 32963

So HEIGHT 1 from AVR went to Top FRONT L/R & HEIGHT 2 went to TOP REAR L/R , as shown above.



Page 70 refers to two sets of "Dolby Atmos Speakers" , which dont apply to me. These are not Atmos enabled speakers("bouncy house" as Gene calls them), but regular speakers mounted on ceiling.




Unfortunately, looks like the AVR repair has reset all the configurations to default. I need to do them from scratch. I just have the physical connections noted , before I sent to repair ..and these were the Connections and yes , like yours, my Top Rears are connected to Height 2:

View attachment 32962

In the Amp assign section, Floor layout would have been set to "5Ch & SB" for 7.1 Channels and "Height Sp" to "4Ch" , for the ceiling speakers.

from Page 66 of the manual, highlighted my Config.

View attachment 32965



No , I didnt select HEIGHT, but TOP FRONT, TOP REAR , as shown above.

Thanks much, for your time on this..

I think with two sets of output transistors blowing in a month there has to be a set up error, an installation error or a faulty speaker.

Your receiver is said to be 4 ohm stable the minimum impedance of your B & W speakers is 4.5 ohms.

So you either have a wiring fault, or inadvertent connection of two power amps to the same speaker or a damaged VC in the speaker blowing the amp channel that fails.

I would invest in a Dayton woofer/speaker tester and see if the impedance curve is what it should be. It would highlight wiring or speaker issues.

If you don't want to invest in that. You need to replace the speaker wire to that speaker. Mice get into many homes and they really love to chew on speaker wire that is not in conduit. This is just one reason that all wire behind a wall or in ceiling needs to be in conduit. I leaned this the hard way as I had an installation I did in a school that was formally the home of the Earls of Darnley. I ran the speaker wire under the great room floor. The failure was due to mice chewing the speaker cables. I have used conduit ever since and ran it then. Speaker wire problem due to wire run in concealed locations not being in conduit are not at all uncommon.

I think unless you take definitive action you will be out another set of power transistors most likely.

 

[PENG]

I think with two sets of output transistors blowing in a month there has to be a set up error, an installation error or a faulty speaker.

Your receiver is said to be 4 ohm stable the minimum impedance of your B & W speakers is 4.5 ohms.

So you either have a wiring fault, or inadvertent connection of two power amps to the same speaker or a damaged VC in the speaker blowing the amp channel that fails.

I would invest in a Dayton woofer/speaker tester and see if the impedance curve is what it should be. It would highlight wiring or speaker issues.

If you don't want to invest in that. You need to replace the speaker wire to that speaker. Mice get into many homes and they really love to chew on speaker wire that is not in conduit. This is just one reason that all wire behind a wall or in ceiling needs to be in conduit. I leaned this the hard way as I had an installation I did in a school that was formally the home of the Earls of Darnley. I ran the speaker wire under the great room floor. The failure was due to mice chewing the speaker cables. I have used conduit ever since and ran it then. Speaker wire problem due to wire run in concealed locations not being in conduit are not at all uncommon.

I think unless you take definitive action you will be out another set of power transistors most likely.

I absolutely agree with you on all counts except I think we don't need to worry about impedance curve as such. It is a clear case that as we both have said, there had to be a wiring fault or speaker faults (less likely as intermittent "shorts" originated from those 2-way B&W speakers would seem almost impossible. There is also a remote chance that there is some sort of intermittent fault in the output stage and associated wiring within the receiver that the service tech might have missed.

We both know 4.5 ohm or 4 ohm or even 2.5 ohm is not a "short", nor would it caused excessive DC, yet those are the two conditions the flashing sequence indicated.

 

[PENG]

@PENG , when I say HEIGHT 1 & HEIGHT 2 , I mean the speaker terminals on the AVR, thats what they're named. I didnt use the actual Height channels, but Height 1/2 connected to TOP FRONT & TOP REAR Speakers..
, as outlined on page 60 of the manual, but with the Surround backs included,

View attachment 32963

So HEIGHT 1 from AVR went to Top FRONT L/R & HEIGHT 2 went to TOP REAR L/R , as shown above.



Page 70 refers to two sets of "Dolby Atmos Speakers" , which dont apply to me. These are not Atmos enabled speakers("bouncy house" as Gene calls them), but regular speakers mounted on ceiling.




Unfortunately, looks like the AVR repair has reset all the configurations to default. I need to do them from scratch. I just have the physical connections noted , before I sent to repair ..and these were the Connections and yes , like yours, my Top Rears are connected to Height 2:

View attachment 32962

In the Amp assign section, Floor layout would have been set to "5Ch & SB" for 7.1 Channels and "Height Sp" to "4Ch" , for the ceiling speakers.

from Page 66 of the manual, highlighted my Config.

View attachment 32965



No , I didnt select HEIGHT, but TOP FRONT, TOP REAR , as shown above.

Thanks much, for your time on this..

So it seems that you had yours set up like mine as we both use the top front and top rear configuration. That means your top rear left speaker was in fact connected to the front left channel amp.

By the way, I picked page 70 only because that's the first page I came across when doing a test search and that page (page 68 too, in fact would have been clearer to you) sort of implied the default setting as it shows the external amp connection. From the picture on either page we can reasonably assume the default "assign" is set up such that the labelled "HEIGHT 1" terminals are "live" while "HEIGHT2" are are not, until you use the "assign" functions. In your case, it means "HEIGHT2" are connected to the front channel amps. As I said the manual was confusing the way they described the assign functions. I don't blame the writer because it really is complicated by nature. With so many configurations, we pretty much have to ignore the FWL, RDL, RHL, RTL and just consider them as HEIGHT1/HEIGHT2 to avoid getting confused.

The simple fact is, the SURROUND BACK and FRONT WIDE/HEIGHT2 terminals as labelled, are both assignable, as are the FRONT L/FRONT R in reality if you set them to "PRE OUT". As such, there isn't really "dedicated" amps for those as some may be led to believe. There is however, what I would call the "default" amps for those terminals, and that would be valid under "factory set up", or after a processor reset conditions.

Edit: deleted my comments about the banana plugs, it's irrelevant.

Once you get it set up again, I would appreciate if you don't mind posting the same screen shots I did in post#25 as I am interested to see how similar the amp assign setup screens of your 2015 Marantz and my 2017 Denon would be.

 

[AVUser001]

@PENG , here are the screenshots from the Marantz Amp Assign/Speaker configs - same as before , except I havent connected the speakers yet .

Now can we rule out setup error ;-) ? .., a configuration that I didnt touch for a couple of years now since 7.1.4 went live (started with 7.1 on this Marantz about 4 yrs ago)

So we're saying, although not stated or implied in the manual, the HEIGHT 2 ( conected to TOP REAR) , implicitly got reassigned to FRONT LEFT , even though I've freed up 5 of amps by pre-outs? This has 9 amps and I used up only 6 of them from Marantz ( & 5 from Emotiva). So HEIGHT2 doesnt have a dedicated amp and got defaulted to FRONT LEFT behind the scenes and that doesnt get called out in the Amp Assign screens or manual.

The closest I saw in the manual , about the usage/reassignment , was in Page 66 , that states

but no mention of FRONT LEFT reassignment.

If thats the case, does explain the concurrence of TOP REAR LEFT speaker loud pop and Marantz going to protection mode and repair guy mentioning FRONT LEFT transistors, on the first incident. On the 2nd incident, after repair, it was just AVR starting up with DEFAULT Amp Assign/Speaker configs , after Emotiva came up via the DC 12v trigger.

 

[AVUser001]

So you either have a wiring fault, or inadvertent connection of two power amps to the same speaker or a damaged VC in the speaker blowing the amp channel that fails.

I would invest in a Dayton woofer/speaker tester and see if the impedance curve is what it should be. It would highlight wiring or speaker issues.

If you don't want to invest in that. You need to replace the speaker wire to that speaker.

I had posted my *exact* AVR/Amp/Speaker connections , as well Amp Assign/Speaker configs in this thread..,did you guys notice any issue ?
Like I posted earlier, this is an existing setup thats been working fine , not a new setup.

Assuming there's a wiring fault or speaker issue , wouldnt that have showed up , with my other AVR (Denon), where I've been watching several movies(w/Atmos) , running multiple Audyssey calibrations/test tones, Atmos demo/tests, resistance tests, 9v DC tests etc? ..with exactly the same Speakers,Wirings,Banana plugs? ( minus the Emotiva Amp, as the Denon has no amp pre-outs,just sub-out).

I dont mind, investing in that device ( this one? ) , seems like something good to have, for now and future. Do you know if it has current protection etc to withstand shorts & such . Any thread that talks to this device and how people are using it for different purposes, I'vent spent time looking into this.?

I dont know if Marantz blew up the VC or there was a speaker fault that blew up the transistors. IF it was the later, Denon would be in trouble now too! Cant believe a lower end Denon will withstand such speaker/wiring issue, better than a top end Marantz?

 

[Pogre]

Hi , can you elaborate this connection issue ?

This is an existing 7.1.4 HT setup I've done years back and working fine with Atmos , with no issues until now.
Furthermore , with exactly the same speakers/cabling & connections, I'm able to play to ALL speakers, with no issue , using an alternate AVR, like I've mentioned on this post, several times..

To me it just screams pinched or worn wire. Stray strand somewhere? Odd that the Denon doesn't have the same issue too tho, so I understand the confusion and your incredulity but something seems to be shorting somewhere. It's possible there's something internal that the techs missed too. This is more complex than it appears on the surface and above my pay grade tbh tho.

Good luck, I hope you guys figure it out.

 

[TLS Guy]

I had posted my *exact* AVR/Amp/Speaker connections , as well Amp Assign/Speaker configs in this thread..,did you guys notice any issue ?
Like I posted earlier, this is an existing setup thats been working fine , not a new setup.

Assuming there's a wiring fault or speaker issue , wouldnt that have showed up , with my other AVR (Denon), where I've been watching several movies(w/Atmos) , running multiple Audyssey calibrations/test tones, Atmos demo/tests, resistance tests, 9v DC tests etc? ..with exactly the same Speakers,Wirings,Banana plugs? ( minus the Emotiva Amp, as the Denon has no amp pre-outs,just sub-out).

I dont mind, investing in that device ( this one? ) , seems like something good to have, for now and future. Do you know if it has current protection etc to withstand shorts & such . Any thread that talks to this device and how people are using it for different purposes, I'vent spent time looking into this.?

I dont know if Marantz blew up the VC or there was a speaker fault that blew up the transistors. IF it was the later, Denon would be in trouble now too! Cant believe a lower end Denon will withstand such speaker/wiring issue, better than a top end Marantz?

I have been doing this a long time. All transistor output stages are potentially fickle. Different issues will upset different circuits. With any output stage the best protection is no faults. Wiring and speaker faults can potentially (and often do) blow up any solid state output stage. So yes it is possible for the Denon to be more tolerant of your problem than the Marantz. With other issues the tables could turn. However I have a strong suspicion that corners are being cut, with these new extreme channel amps, to maintain price and space saving. I have said it before and will say it again putting 11 power amps and processing in one case is ludicrous and will reap a grim harvest.

Another point to remember is that when an output stage blows there will be DC off set to the connected speaker. That was the pop you heard. That voltage will be around 100 volts DC. So the speaker will be exposed to the full DC rail voltage at least for an instant. This can be, and often is, damaging to the voice coil, especially in a smaller speaker like that. The damage can be gross or subtle and cause your problems to boomerang.

So that is why I advise checking the speaker that popped with the Drayton tester, and compare the impedance curves with a speaker that is the same but not exposed to DC offset.

I can tell you those Dayton speaker testers are excellent at uncovering even the most subtle VC problems.

My concern is that unless you are very careful then you may keep going round in circles. Don't be surprised if the Marantz is more fragile than the older Denon..

You seem to have a nice system. I would strongly advise you to move up to a Marntz pre/pro and use dedicated power amps to each speaker.

I personally use Quad amps. That is because they are designed from square one to be highly robust and tolerant of a wide variety of loads. Even so I take great care NOT to put protection to the test.

 

[PENG]

@PENG , here are the screenshots from the Marantz Amp Assign/Speaker configs - same as before , except I havent connected the speakers yet .

View attachment 32973
View attachment 32974
View attachment 32975

Now can we rule out setup error ;-) ? .., a configuration that I didnt touch for a couple of years now since 7.1.4 went live (started with 7.1 on this Marantz about 4 yrs ago)

So we're saying, although not stated or implied in the manual, the HEIGHT 2 ( conected to TOP REAR) , implicitly got reassigned to FRONT LEFT , even though I've freed up 5 of amps by pre-outs? This has 9 amps and I used up only 6 of them from Marantz ( & 5 from Emotiva). So HEIGHT2 doesnt have a dedicated amp and got defaulted to FRONT LEFT behind the scenes and that doesnt get called out in the Amp Assign screens or manual.

The closest I saw in the manual , about the usage/reassignment , was in Page 66 , that states
View attachment 32978
but no mention of FRONT LEFT reassignment.

If thats the case, does explain the concurrence of TOP REAR LEFT speaker loud pop and Marantz going to protection mode and repair guy mentioning FRONT LEFT transistors, on the first incident. On the 2nd incident, after repair, it was just AVR starting up with DEFAULT Amp Assign/Speaker configs , after Emotiva came up via the DC 12v trigger.

Yes yes and yes..like I said earlier, the manual(s) are not clear and missing details. If you didn't change anything by default you are feeding the rear top left with the front left.

To triple check (since yours an older Marantz, don't want to assume it's the same as my newer Denon), I downloaded the schematics and that confirmed my assumption/understanding is correct.

You can download the schematics too if you wish.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I can’t offer any help except my sympathy regarding the repair issues.

Is Panurgy the DM Repair people?

 

[AVUser001]

Is Panurgy the DM Repair people?

Yes, Thanks

 

[PENG]

I have been doing this a long time. All transistor output stages are potentially fickle. Different issues will upset different circuits. With any output stage the best protection is no faults. Wiring and speaker faults can potentially (and often do) blow up any solid state output stage. So yes it is possible for the Denon to be more tolerant of your problem than the Marantz. With other issues the tables could turn. However I have a strong suspicion that corners are being cut, with these new extreme channel amps, to maintain price and space saving. I have said it before and will say it again putting 11 power amps and processing in one case is ludicrous and will reap a grim harvest.

Another point to remember is that when an output stage blows there will be DC off set to the connected speaker. That was the pop you heard. That voltage will be around 100 volts DC. So the speaker will be exposed to the full DC rail voltage at least for an instant. This can be, and often is, damaging to the voice coil, especially in a smaller speaker like that. The damage can be gross or subtle and cause your problems to boomerang.

So that is why I advise checking the speaker that popped with the Drayton tester, and compare the impedance curves with a speaker that is the same but not exposed to DC offset.

I can tell you those Dayton speaker testers are excellent at uncovering even the most subtle VC problems.

My concern is that unless you are very careful then you may keep going round in circles. Don't be surprised if the Marantz is more fragile than the older Denon..

You seem to have a nice system. I would strongly advise you to move up to a Marntz pre/pro and use dedicated power amps to each speaker.

I personally use Quad amps. That is because they are designed from square one to be highly robust and tolerant of a wide variety of loads. Even so I take great care NOT to put protection to the test.

I agree the speaker could have been damaged and need to be checked but disagree on the 100 V thing, let's not exaggerate too much.