New receiver: Denon AVR-X3600H or X4500H ?

[VonMagnum]

Length of room? The width doesn't sound like an issue either way.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Well, it is L-shaped, so at its shortest 4,9 meter, and at its longest 7,1 meter. The side surrounds and the rear heights would be placed slightly behind the MLP on the side-walls, leaving about 1,8 meters from the back wall on the short end and 4 meters on the long end.

 

[VonMagnum]

You should have no issues with heights in that size room.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

I hope to find out before Christmas

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Bump! It's time to decide. After have re-watched the Audioholics video on the x3600h, I have the impression that the x3600h has a major advantage over the x4500h: it physically disconnects the internal power amp when using an external amplifier to power the last two channels in a 11 channel setup (which I will do). Gene seems as hyped about this. Any thoughts?

 

[Danzilla31]

You should have no issues with heights in that size room.

I just want to say I love your setup bro it's neat to finally see pictures of the room congratulations on a lot of hard work paying off for you

Wish I could hear it bet it sounds awesome

 

[PENG]

Bump! It's time to decide. After have re-watched the Audioholics video on the x3600h, I have the impression that the x3600h has a major advantage over the x4500h: it physically disconnects the internal power amp when using an external amplifier to power the last two channels in a 11 channel setup (which I will do). Gene seems as hyped about this. Any thoughts?

It seems that you might have misunderstood the point. It is not an unique feature for the X3600H. Any of Denon and Marantz 2017, 2018 AVRs that are capable of 11.1 channel processing with only 9 internal amp channels, have that same feature as the 2019 AVR-X3600H. I have the AVR-X4400H, and I am using 11.1 so the internal FL/FR amps are also "disconnected" from the FL/FR preamp outputs.

To be clear, this feature allows you to disconnect only the front left and right amp channels from the front left and right preamp outputs, but they will get reconnected to the Atmos/Height channels of your choice, selectable from the amp assign menu.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Peng, are you sure they disconnect in the same way? That's not what Gene is saying in the video

He's saying that there are no other receivers at (or even near) this price point that has the same feature.

 

[PENG]

Peng, are you sure they disconnect in the same way? That's not what Gene is saying in the video

He's saying that there are no other receivers at (or even near) this price point that has the same feature.

Yes I am sure. In fact, Gene made it very clear too, he said:

"Here is the procedure for reassigning the front channels to the height surrounds:

1. Go to AVR`s setup menu
2. Select “Speakers”, enter “Amp Assign”
3. Select “11.1ch” for “Assign Mode” setting
4. Select “Front” for “Preout” setting. The other option is “Height”.

Connect an external 2CH amplifier to the Front L and R preouts, connect the rest of speakers (9.0) to the remaining receiver`s speaker terminals (C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB and 4 height channels) for a full 7.1.4 speaker configuration.
With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering."

Of course Gene is correct about no other receivers at that price point has this feature, but that would be based on list prices. The nearest one would be the SR6013 and SR6014 that is listed for $1,499. The AVR-X3600H is listed $1099 and the AVR-X4500H $1,599.

Again, that's list price, street prices could be much lower obviously when on sales especially for the 2018 models such as the AVR-X4500H that you may be able to get now for $1199 or less. The Marantz had dropped to C$1199, that was about US$910 not that long ago. You won't likely see such deals for the lower models AVR-X3600H and SR6014 because they are current year/2019 models.

The only AVR that can disconnect all channels in what they call the preamp mode are the recent Denon flagship models, such as older AVR-X7200WA and the still current AVR-X8500H.

You can ask/PM @gene if you want to hear directly from him but yes I am sure it only disconnects the front left and right channel internal amps from the front left/right preamp outputs.

 

[Isak Öhrlund]

Thank you for that reassuring answer!

 

[Pogre]

For me it's a no brainer. The 4500 would be my choice hands down if they were both similarly priced.

 

[ricks1978]

Denon X4500, slightly more power, better features, and a higher-class product. You might actually find the X4500 cheaper than the X3600 because it is newer.

The only advantages the X3600 has is a higher Bluetooth version, and higher HDCP version. The X4500 draws more power, has a better DAC and amplifier, and more features. It should be a no brainer, unless you are serious about Bluetooth!

 

[PENG]

Denon X4500, slightly more power, better features, and a higher-class product. You might actually find the X4500 cheaper than the X3600 because it is newer.

The only advantages the X3600 has is a higher Bluetooth version, and higher HDCP version. The X4500 draws more power, has a better DAC and amplifier, and more features. It should be a no brainer, unless you are serious about Bluetooth!

You are probably right about everything except the dac part. They both have the same AK4458.

 

[defset17]

Yes I am sure. In fact, Gene made it very clear too, he said:

"Here is the procedure for reassigning the front channels to the height surrounds:

1. Go to AVR`s setup menu
2. Select “Speakers”, enter “Amp Assign”
3. Select “11.1ch” for “Assign Mode” setting
4. Select “Front” for “Preout” setting. The other option is “Height”.

Connect an external 2CH amplifier to the Front L and R preouts, connect the rest of speakers (9.0) to the remaining receiver`s speaker terminals (C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB and 4 height channels) for a full 7.1.4 speaker configuration.
With the AVR-X3600H configured to reroute the main front L/R internal amplifiers, the preamp is physically disconnected from the power amp. This allows the preamp stage full capability of delivering up to 4Vrms unclipped when connected to external amplification as can be seen in the following output vs distortion plot courtesy of Sound United Engineering."

Of course Gene is correct about no other receivers at that price point has this feature, but that would be based on list prices. The nearest one would be the SR6013 and SR6014 that is listed for $1,499. The AVR-X3600H is listed $1099 and the AVR-X4500H $1,599.

Again, that's list price, street prices could be much lower obviously when on sales especially for the 2018 models such as the AVR-X4500H that you may be able to get now for $1199 or less. The Marantz had dropped to C$1199, that was about US$910 not that long ago. You won't likely see such deals for the lower models AVR-X3600H and SR6014 because they are current year/2019 models.

The only AVR that can disconnect all channels in what they call the preamp mode are the recent Denon flagship models, such as older AVR-X7200WA and the still current AVR-X8500H.

You can ask/PM @gene if you want to hear directly from him but yes I am sure it only disconnects the front left and right channel internal amps from the front left/right preamp outputs.

Hi PENG. I also watched the recent video and fully understand your reply that it is not a unique feature to the AVR-X3600H. One thing I am a bit confused on is the internal FL/FR amps only being able to be "disconnected". Seems like it would help take the load/voltage off the AVR using a 2CH external amp, but if you were using, say a 7CH external amp to power all speakers (except the 4 height channels), what happens to the internal amps for the C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB? Are the internal amps on those channels still technically "active/not disconnected" even though you would be using the preouts?

 

[PENG]

Hi PENG. I also watched the recent video and fully understand your reply that it is not a unique feature to the AVR-X3600H. One thing I am a bit confused on is the internal FL/FR amps only being able to be "disconnected". Seems like it would help take the load/voltage off the AVR using a 2CH external amp, but if you were using, say a 7CH external amp to power all speakers (except the 4 height channels), what happens to the internal amps for the C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB? Are the internal amps on those channels still technically "active/not disconnected" even though you would be using the preouts?

That is correct, the pre-out will still be connected to the internal power amps inputs.

FL pre-out connected to FL power amp.
FR pre-out connected to FR power amp.
C pre-out..........................C power amp.
etc..........................................................

FL and FR are only disconnected to the FL and FR channel power amps if and when you assign them to other power amp channels such as the height channels. The Owner's manuals are not very clear. For example, for the SR6012, SR7012, AVR-X4400H it says:

Exactly the same for the AVR-X3600H as described in the Owner's manual page 217.

Here's a screenshot I posted before:

I understand what Gene was suggesting, that he thought at higher pre out voltage such as above 1.5 V or so, the power amp output voltage may clip, thereby resulted in more distortions in the pre-outs, but I am not sure if the effects is really significant enough for most users to be concerned about. It would be great if in his next review, he picked something like the X3600H, or a Marantz SR6013/6013, and measure the pre-out distortions on the FR/FL channels, with and without the FR/FL disconnected so we can actually see how bad/or not the effects really are. The other thing is, at higher pre out level, the unit would shut down when he did his FBW continuous sweep, but for real world use that won't likely be an issue.

 

[defset17]

That is correct, the pre-out will still be connected to the internal power amps inputs.

FL pre-out connected to FL power amp.
FR pre-out connected to FR power amp.
C pre-out..........................C power amp.
etc..........................................................

FL and FR are only disconnected to the FL and FR channel power amps if and when you assign them to other power amp channels such as the height channels. The Owner's manuals are not very clear. For example, for the SR6012, SR7012, AVR-X4400H it says:

View attachment 32549

Exactly the same for the AVR-X3600H as described in the Owner's manual page 217.

Here's a screenshot I posted before:

View attachment 32550

I understand what Gene was suggesting, that he thought at higher pre out voltage such as above 1.5 V or so, the power amp output voltage may clip, thereby resulted in more distortions in the pre-outs, but I am not sure if the effects is really significant enough for most users to be concerned about. It would be great if in his next review, he picked something like the X3600H, or a Marantz SR6013/6013, and measure the pre-out distortions on the FR/FL channels, with and without the FR/FL disconnected so we can actually see how bad/or not the effects really are. The other thing is, at higher pre out level, the unit would shut down when he did his FBW continuous sweep, but for real world use that won't likely be an issue.

Thanks PENG. I also read a few of the D&M manuals to find an answer but you're right about them being unclear. I recently bought an Outlaw 7000x and was looking to purchase a new AVR to run a 7.2.4 setup, so voltage/clipping was something I started to think about.

My goal was to take as much load as possible off of a new AVR by directing the FR/FL, C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB to the Outlaw, but I'm guessing that if only the FR/FL channel's internal amps can be "disconnected" on the preouts, there's really no other benefit in terms of voltage for using the preouts for the C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB channels. Seems like I'd just be gaining more wattage per channel that I could push to each speaker.

 

[PENG]

Thanks PENG. I also read a few of the D&M manuals to find an answer but you're right about them being unclear. I recently bought an Outlaw 7000x and was looking to purchase a new AVR to run a 7.2.4 setup, so voltage/clipping was something I started to think about.

My goal was to take as much load as possible off of a new AVR by directing the FR/FL, C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB to the Outlaw, but I'm guessing that if only the FR/FL channel's internal amps can be "disconnected" on the preouts, there's really no other benefit in terms of voltage for using the preouts for the C, SL, SR, SLB, SRB channels. Seems like I'd just be gaining more wattage per channel that I could push to each speaker.

The Outlaw 7000x is rated 130 W so the pre-out of the AVR-X4500H or Marantz SR7013 will be able drive it to well above its rated output. As you know even the AVR-X3500H was measured for 2 V with THD+N slightly above 0.02%.

 

[RRRR]

It's just a question of money and sound quality!
The Danon 8500 gives you depth, broad stage, sound quality

 

[Pogre]

It's just a question of money and sound quality!
The Danon 8500 gives you depth, broad stage, sound quality

As compared to..?

8500 gives you better build quality, more features and a bit more power but likely no improvement in actual sound quality over their lower tier models.

 

[RRRR]

As compared to..?

8500 gives you better build quality, more features and a bit more power but likely no improvement in actual sound quality over their lower tier models.

I first bought the Danon 4500 and returned it to the store
Because he had no power, no broad stage, no sound detail
And I took the Danon 8500