Can a High End Receiver compete with High End Separates

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Separates should not include subs and speakers with built in amps for comparison. All amps are mates to some speaker.

There major differences between integrated and separates is more than one power cable to the wall! Each component has its own dedicated power if you arranged it that way on a single breaker!

It the end it’s all about preference. But don’t make a false statement that a powered sub/speaker is the same as an AVR because that’s BS to call the spade a spade!

All amps are mates to some speaker?

Some people could say that's just another justification of what you own.

People could say "all amps are mates to some preamps" with the much-talked about pre-out voltages and amplifier gains.

How difficult is it to "mate" a speaker and subwoofer to an amp compared to "mating" an amp to a preamp?

How often do we hear about those "humming" noise associated with separate amps + preamps compared to AVRs?

Don't most people buy their own separate amps and "mate" them to their speakers compared to owning speakers with built-in amps?

 

[Pogre]

So if you were to take the exact same components from separates and put them into one box it will degrade the performance?

 

[HTfreak2004]

All amps are mates to some speaker?

Some people could say that's just another justification of what you own.

People could say "all amps are mates to some preamps" with the much-talked about pre-out voltages and amplifier gains.

How difficult is it to "mate" a speaker and subwoofer to an amp compared to "mating" an amp to a preamp?

How often do we hear about those "humming" noise associated with separate amps + preamps compared to AVRs?

Don't most people buy their own separate amps and "mate" them to their speakers compared to owning speakers with built-in amps?

“Mated”
to a speaker has nothing to do with brands only that all speakers need an amp driving them.

Let’s not get off topic and get caught up on misunderstanding my statement previously.

Your side stepping your false comparisons between powered speakers with internal amps to integrated receivers/AVRs.

They’re simply not the same just because the amp is inside the speaker enclosure!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

“Mated”
to a speaker has nothing to do with brands only that all speakers need an amp driving them.

Let’s not get off topic and get caught up on misunderstanding my statement previously.

Your side stepping your false comparisons between powered speakers with internal amps to integrated receivers/AVRs.

They’re simply not the same just because the amp is inside the speaker enclosure!

Well, for someone who is going through this forum and wanting to know more.

They might see that putting amps inside the speaker as the same concept as putting amps inside the AVR.

You're saying they are not the same. But why exactly is that?

Some people say that putting amps inside AVR increases HEAT production, increase the Complexity, and any other adverse effects. But at the same time, putting amps inside the Speakers will NOT increase Heat production and Complexity and any other adverse effects?

 

[HTfreak2004]

Well, for someone who is going through this forum and wanting to know more.

They might see that putting amps inside the speaker as the same concept as putting amps inside the AVR.

You're saying they are not the same. But why exactly is that?

Power cord services the Amp power supply alone and has nothing to do with the processor of an AVR.


Switch ability. I can come to your house and visa versa with my amp and you can hook it to your pre amp and speakers. Or I can bring my processor over your choice.

But by no means am I telling you I favour my separates over a well integrated AVR as long as the AVR allows me to utilize an external amp if I so choose!

All to often people attempt to compare apples to oranges and than afterwards wonder why people disagree. Let’s be perfectly clear it’s possible to see the orange from one’s own point of reference yet still be holding an apple

 

[Kingnoob]

This is gonna be fun.

View attachment 32236

Avr are more of a all I one solution for budget concerned people like me haha .
Separates are not very practical for 7 or 9 ch surround unless you want to spend a fortune


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kingnoob]

This is gonna be fun.

View attachment 32236

I’d say yes for the majority of people a high end Avr is fine unless you are incredibly wealthy and can afford monoblocks then clearly that is better .
Some Avr allow external amplifiers , I personally can’t tell the difference well enough to consider not using an Avr and don’t have the space for separates until I can. Afford to move out , top of the line amps are 6kea or more I don’t see me ever being able to afford that especially with the crumbling of the wages and stagnation.

Avr are more of a all I one solution for budget concerned people like me haha .
Separates are not very practical for 7 or 9 ch surround unless you want to spend a fortune


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[HTfreak2004]

Avr are more of a all I one solution for budget concerned people like me haha .
Separates are not very practical for 7 or 9 ch surround unless you want to spend a fortune


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The key phrase
“more like”
But the rabbit hole is more of a bottomless pit here

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Power cord services the Amp power supply alone and has nothing to do with the processor of an AVR.


Switch ability. I can come to your house and visa versa with my amp and you can hook it to your pre amp and speakers. Or I can bring my processor over your choice.

But by no means am I telling you I favour my separates over a well integrated AVR as long as the AVR allows me to utilize an external amp if I so choose!

All to often people attempt to compare apples to oranges and than afterwards wonder why people disagree. Let’s be perfectly clear it’s possible to see the orange from one’s own point of reference yet still be holding an apple

Wait. I'm not sure if we are debating or discussing the same thing.

So let me just ask you 3 questions. True or False.

1. Theoretically, putting amps inside AVRs increases Complexity and Heat Production.

2. Theoretically, putting amps inside the Speakers increases Complexity and Heat Production.

3. Theories may not be the same as Realities.

 

[Pogre]

I’d say yes for the majority of people a high end Avr is fine unless you are incredibly wealthy and can afford monoblocks then clearly that is better .
Some Avr allow external amplifiers , I personally can’t tell the difference well enough to consider not using an Avr and don’t have the space for separates until I can. Afford to move out , top of the line amps are 6kea or more I don’t see me ever being able to afford that especially with the crumbling of the wages and stagnation.

Avr are more of a all I one solution for budget concerned people like me haha .
Separates are not very practical for 7 or 9 ch surround unless you want to spend a fortune


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm using an AVR with preouts for my amp. Did I really need the amp? Not really, but I like the idea of having the flexibility to do anything or drive any speakers I might want down the road. Hopefully, it's the last one I'll ever buy. Plus it's just plain cool.

Also, when using an AVR with preouts if anything were to happen to the amp I'm not left completely without a system while I figure out the next move.

 

[HTfreak2004]

Both of your questions is not theoretically anymore it’s fact and both are true integrated will increase heat. One enclosure is not as good as two. Second of course all in one is more complex.

But theoretically is out the window!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Separates are not very practical for 7 or 9 ch surround unless you want to spend a fortune...

1. What's a fortune?
2. They do make 11Ch Multi-Channel Amps that you can buy for under $2K. But it goes back to question #1.

 

[bnobre69]

So let's see if I got this correctly.

1. You don't think that Integrated Amps (some costs $8K or more) are truly "Separates" because they have built-in Amps inside the Preamp?

I think many people would agree with that because they think "separates" should mean that the Amps are SEPARATE from the Preamp.

2. Since we have high-end and high quality NON-Separates (high-end Integrated Amps with built-in Amps, high-end speakers with built-in Amps, high-end subwoofers with built-in Amps), it's also perfectly okay to have AVRs with built-in Amps since it's okay to have built-in amps for everything else?

And I think many people would also agree with that logic. Let's not have double standards here.

Thats almost right, i think that if brand 'A' sells high level separates they should market their high end integrated amps diferently, not equal or better... And yes i know that they separate everything inside the amp, pre from power and etc... but from a design point it's not ideal, probably it shares the same power supply... If we are looking for the most qualility these don't catch up.. And if they do, that's probably me main point of this entire discussion. When i started this thread i was just trying to find out a little more about high end separates vs high end receivers, but i am getting convinced that without any special needs of power or speaker impedance you probably cannot ear a diference from a high end receiver like the marantz 8012 or high end separate with similar power... that's just my opinion

Enviado do meu VOG-L29 através do Tapatalk

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Thats almost right, i think that if brand 'A' sells high level separates they should market their high end integrated amps diferently, not equal or better... And yes i know that they separate everything inside the amp, pre from power and etc... but from a design point it's not ideal, probably it shares the same power supply... If we are looking for the most qualility these don't catch up.. And if they do, that's probably me main point of this entire discussion. When i started this thread i was just trying to find out a little more about high end separates vs high end receivers, but i am getting convinced that without any special needs of power or speaker impedance you probably cannot ear a diference from a high end receiver like the marantz 8012 or high end separate with similar power... that's just my opinion

Enviado do meu VOG-L29 através do Tapatalk

There is a poll on Separates vs AVR. You can see that about 50% of the voting members (55 total votes) think that if the price is about the same, then the sound quality is also about the same.

The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

The topic of using “Separates” vs. AVR is extremely popular. It seems like we see a new thread on this topic almost every week. Many people have asked, “Should I buy an AVR or a Pre-pro?” Many of us have used a variety of components through the years including Integrated Amplifiers...

forums.audioholics.com

 

[Mikado463]

Well, for someone who is going through this forum and wanting to know more.

They might see that putting amps inside the speaker as the same concept as putting amps inside the AVR.

You're saying they are not the same. But why exactly is that?

Some people say that putting amps inside AVR increases HEAT production, increase the Complexity, and any other adverse effects. But at the same time, putting amps inside the Speakers will NOT increase Heat production and Complexity and any other adverse effects?

can you name me one sub manufacturer that uses a class A/B or class A amp inside their speaker ? I cant .....

So, unless you can compare like classification of amplifier topology in AVR vs. powered speakers your argument is meaningless ...........

 

[lovinthehd]

Thats almost right, i think that if brand 'A' sells high level separates they should market their high end integrated amps diferently, not equal or better... And yes i know that they separate everything inside the amp, pre from power and etc... but from a design point it's not ideal, probably it shares the same power supply... If we are looking for the most qualility these don't catch up.. And if they do, that's probably me main point of this entire discussion. When i started this thread i was just trying to find out a little more about high end separates vs high end receivers, but i am getting convinced that without any special needs of power or speaker impedance you probably cannot ear a diference from a high end receiver like the marantz 8012 or high end separate with similar power... that's just my opinion

Enviado do meu VOG-L29 através do Tapatalk

Yeah an integrated is just a poorly equipped receiver without a tuner!

 

[3db]

can you name me one sub manufacturer that uses a class A/B or class A amp inside their speaker ? I cant .....

So, unless you can compare like classification of amplifier topology in AVR vs. powered speakers your argument is meaningless ...........

Pioneer AVRs have amps are class D. Does this now make the arguement more relative?

 

[lovinthehd]

can you name me one sub manufacturer that uses a class A/B or class A amp inside their speaker ? I cant .....

So, unless you can compare like classification of amplifier topology in AVR vs. powered speakers your argument is meaningless ...........

Why does the amp type matter particularly? If properly designed gear....

 

[BriReeves629]

Here’s a theory...

Audio is like fashion. We try to stay in style wearing the latest fashion then as we age, at some point we just stop at a specific decade. It’s different for everyone as far as what age we stop. In the 70s and 80s (or whenever) the type of amplification available was such that it ran so hot that there was no way you would put it anywhere near your processor. Now days, With new technology, you can put more in the same box and not worry about frying all the electronics.

I have my AVR in a rack inside a 5x5 storage closet. I have powered up to 11 speakers at the same time in two separate zones with two separate sources running in each zone. All in one box. Is it cold to the touch? No, but it certainly doesn’t get anywhere near warm enough I would worry about overheating the processor components.

Is it possible that so many people continue to purchase separates because that is just how it’s “always been done”? Aren’t separates more expensive typically then the all-in-one box solutions?

 

[HTfreak2004]

Why does the amp type matter particularly? If properly designed gear....

If you can honestly hear a difference than that is the only grounds for mattering