Denon Audyssey settings with Def Tech bipolar speakers

[letrbuck2006]

So I've got a Denon AVR-X6300 receiver and I have Definitive Technology floorstanding speakers (BP9080x) and center channel (CS9080) which all have built in subwoofers. When I ran the Audyssey microphone to dial everything in and looked at the speaker EQ curves it has the >80hz cranked way down on my towers and center channel. My thought process, and I thank Denon for making this easy, is to copy the EQ settings, turn off the Audyssey adjustments and copy and enter the EQ curve in manually exactly as the Audyssey system has it except for the 63hz signal. Is this the right thing to do or should I just leave it and let my SVS subwoofer do all the heavy lifting. I feel like the subs in my towers and center channel are completely wasted if I leave it the way it is though. Any advice on the topic would be greatly appreciated.

 

[ryanosaur]

You should absolutely use your real Subwoofer. DT does no favors calling those "subs." At the end of the day, it is your system and ears you need to please. That said, I would treat your towers as regular speakers, set them to small, engage your real Subwoofer, pick a good XO point by experimenting and listening (start at 80Hz, try 60Hz, maybe higher), and have fun experimenting and learning.
This review shows the towers to be -3dB at 27Hz (at -6@24). Not bad, but leaving a lot on the table when it come to LFE.

 

[letrbuck2006]

You should absolutely use your real Subwoofer. DT does no favors calling those "subs." At the end of the day, it is your system and ears you need to please. That said, I would treat your towers as regular speakers, set them to small, engage your real Subwoofer, pick a good XO point by experimenting and listening (start at 80Hz, try 60Hz, maybe higher), and have fun experimenting and learning.
This review shows the towers to be -3dB at 27Hz (at -6@24). Not bad, but leaving a lot on the table when it come to LFE.

Oh I will absolutely be using my SVS sub as my "main" sub but I was just extremely surprised to see that the Audyssey XT32 settings after running the mic had my towers and center channel so low on the >80hz signal. I'm just debating whether it's worth using the Audyssey settings that basically negated the built in subs or tweaking the settings myself. Do you know if there's any other benefit to using the Audyssey settings? Side note I don't use Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume which are completely disabled by setting the eq curve for each specific speaker.

 

[ryanosaur]

I've had pretty good experience with my Audyssey. I do limit it to below the apparent Schroeder Frequency of my room, thus am only correcting my Lows from around 160-180Hz and below.

I do allow DEQ, but nothing else. Mine is set to Flat, and limited as I described above. I also do not use MRC.

Without seeing the graph I don't know what you are describing. It is possible that you have some acoustical issues that could be affecting the measurement or actual performance, too.

Can you be a little more clear on what you mean by the ">80Hz signal?"

 

[letrbuck2006]

When I ran the Audyssey setup this is what it gave me for speaker specific settings.

 

[lovinthehd]

What SVS sub do you have? What crossover setting did the avr suggest after running Audyssey? How are you connecting the powered woofers? I wouldn't read too much into the Audyssey graphics either particularly....

 

[Danzilla31]

Oh I will absolutely be using my SVS sub as my "main" sub but I was just extremely surprised to see that the Audyssey XT32 settings after running the mic had my towers and center channel so low on the >80hz signal. I'm just debating whether it's worth using the Audyssey settings that basically negated the built in subs or tweaking the settings myself. Do you know if there's any other benefit to using the Audyssey settings? Side note I don't use Dynamic EQ or Dynamic Volume which are completely disabled by setting the eq curve for each specific speaker.

Also you want to keep in mind that deftech themselves say that Audyssey has a hard time correctly getting those powered towers dialed in correctly. I would call them as well because they say that room correction software has challenges with there powered speakers

I'd do exactly what Ryan suggested and it's suggested by Dec tech themselves set all your deftech speakers to small send your main LFE content to your sub to let it do the heavy lifting.

Also I'd do an old fashioned manual eq with those bad boys after that. Grab a laser ruler an spl meter and level match your speakers and sub and then as Ryan suggested play with your crossovers see what you like.

 

[Danzilla31]

One cool thing with those bad boy towers is you can definetly set your crossovers at 80 or 60 and get some nice midbass slam at those areas rolling the rest off to the sub.
Just because your using your not running them full range doesn't mean that those powered subs won't play a role for you at a higher crossover point within reason

 

[ryanosaur]

That is a new UI for me. Is that supposed to be what audyssey is doing for room correction? Definitely agree with what Lovin just said... take that with a healthy dose of salt.

Have you bought the Audyssey App? It's a much better tool for using the Room Correction and gives you better information than that graph you just posted. The $20 is a little steep, but they seem to have fixed most of the negatives and it works pretty well now. I think its a worthy investment for the control it gives you... something your AVR will not do. It will also show you a decent graph of what Audyssey measured in room. This is helpful for seeing if there are any issues you can fix by placement changes alone.

One last thought is that if that is in fact what Audyssey is doing to your speakers, its likely because it is detecting too much LF presence. Are the powered woofers cranked?

 

[ryanosaur]

Grab a laser ruler an spl meter and level match your speakers and sub and then as Ryan suggested play with your crossovers see what you like.

But let Audyssey set the distance for your real sub, as it will correct for any dsp delay in the subs processing.

 

[Danzilla31]

But let Audyssey set the distance for your real sub, as it will correct for any dsp delay in the subs processing.

Also you can manually compensate for that as well there's some good info on it but yeah it's usually easier to let Audyssey do that part

 

[letrbuck2006]

What SVS sub do you have? What crossover setting did the avr suggest after running Audyssey? How are you connecting the powered woofers? I wouldn't read too much into the Audyssey graphics either particularly....

I've got the SVS PB ULTRA 16 sub, I always run these towers with straight speaker wire (not using the LFE input on the towers or center) as Def Tech recommends that way the internals of the towers essentially sets the crossovers for all the speakers within the tower, otherwise the Audyssey system I believe set the crossover at 80hz. I've got the towers and center channel set as large so that the receiver will still send everything under 80hz to the speakers. I've got the bass volume on the towers and center channel exactly half way so I don't think that's the reason it gave me such skewed results. I might have to look into the app you mentioned.

I think my best bet is just use the EQ that the Audyssey system recommended but set it to manual so I can tweak the lower herz ranges on my towers and center channel otherwise the subs in those speakers are completely wasted. As far as just basic sound levels of each speaker, I've already gotten them even across the board and the Audyssey system was damn near perfect with that but the speaker specific toning was the main thing I was concerned about after running it. I appreciate all the input.

 

[letrbuck2006]

Also you want to keep in mind that deftech themselves say that Audyssey has a hard time correctly getting those powered towers dialed in correctly. I would call them as well because they say that room correction software has challenges with there powered speakers

I'd do exactly what Ryan suggested and it's suggested by Dec tech themselves set all your deftech speakers to small send your main LFE content to your sub to let it do the heavy lifting.

Also I'd do an old fashioned manual eq with those bad boys after that. Grab a laser ruler an spl meter and level match your speakers and sub and then as Ryan suggested play with your crossovers see what you like.

I question why I would set my towers and center channel to small as that would send everything under 80hz to my sub and completely bypass the towers and center channel that have built in subwoofers. Am I correct in that statement or am I misunderstanding something in there? Just to note I do not use the LFE inputs on the towers or center channel as it was explained to me by Def Tech that they recommend using just speaker cable and letting the internal processing of the speakers determine what signals to send to what speakers within the towers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've got the SVS PB ULTRA 16 sub, I always run these towers with straight speaker wire (not using the LFE input on the towers or center) as Def Tech recommends that way the internals of the towers essentially sets the crossovers for all the speakers within the tower, otherwise the Audyssey system I believe set the crossover at 80hz. I've got the towers and center channel set as large so that the receiver will still send everything under 80hz to the speakers. I've got the bass volume on the towers and center channel exactly half way so I don't think that's the reason it gave me such skewed results. I might have to look into the app you mentioned.

I think my best bet is just use the EQ that the Audyssey system recommended but set it to manual so I can tweak the lower herz ranges on my towers and center channel otherwise the subs in those speakers are completely wasted. As far as just basic sound levels of each speaker, I've already gotten them even across the board and the Audyssey system was damn near perfect with that but the speaker specific toning was the main thing I was concerned about after running it. I appreciate all the input.

When you set the speakers to large, it just means they're running full range. Audyssey set what for speaker levels with the gain set halfway on your speaker (assuming that's what the volume control does). Are you using the Bass setting for subs LFE+Main or LFE?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I question why I would set my towers and center channel to small as that would send everything under 80hz to my sub and completely bypass the towers and center channel that have built in subwoofers. Am I correct in that statement or am I misunderstanding something in there? Just to note I do not use the LFE inputs on the towers or center channel as it was explained to me by Def Tech that they recommend using just speaker cable and letting the internal processing of the speakers determine what signals to send to what speakers within the towers.

Even if you set them to small, you can still set the XO as low as you want. For example, maybe 40 or 50hz. that’s something you can experiment with and see what you like better. I think running them full range is fine and agree with not using the subwoofer feature.
As far as “sub” in the center channel, IMO that’s dubious at best. I would cross that at 80 or 100 to make sure voices are clear and not covered up by lower frequencies.
Hi from up nort!

 

[letrbuck2006]

When you set the speakers to large, it just means they're running full range. Audyssey set what for speaker levels with the gain set halfway on your speaker (assuming that's what the volume control does). Are you using the Bass setting for subs LFE+Main or LFE?

I've got it set at LFE + Main

 

[ryanosaur]

I question why I would set my towers and center channel to small as that would send everything under 80hz to my sub and completely bypass the towers and center channel that have built in subwoofers.

Wrong. Crossovers do not cut off hard the way you apparently think. It’s usually a 12dB per octave slope, designed to gently fade from one to the other, speakers to subwoofer (in this case). It is common to set your XO an octave above the F3 of your speakers. This allows for better integration.
An example using my gear: my towers are solid to 25hz. If I run them large, they would receive full signal information containing deep infrasonic too. An 18Hz tone at volume could easily overexcurse the woofer and that would be the end. I cross those speakers at 60hz. This protects the woofer, gives the subwoofer the work it was designed to do, and enhances the quality of the sound.
Another example with my standmounts, rated down to 34Hz and crossed at 80: when running a series of test tones through my system I was surprised to see my woofers moving when using tones in the low 20s! That signal is still there!!! The speaker is not bypassed.
The DefTech speakers are nowhere near capable of doing what your PB16 can do for you. Look at the review I posted earlier. The measured frequency response is nowhere near what DT advertises, and physics alone should explain it. Low bass reproduction requires large cabinets: much larger than the size of those towers, and orders of magnitude larger than the center channel. You have an absolute beast of a Sub which is actually way more capable of doing the job you insist those towers and center should do. Use it!

As far as Audyssey goes, I think you will have better success understanding it with the App. It does present its own challenges, but the control it gives you is a significant improvement over the on-board AVR version.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wrong. Crossovers do not cut off hard the way you apparently think. It’s usually a 12dB per octave slope, designed to gently fade from one to the other, speakers to subwoofer. It is common to set your XO an octave above the F3 of your speakers. This allows for better integration.
An example using my gear: my towers are solid to 25hz. If I run them large, they would receive full signal information containing deep infrasonic too. An 18Hz tone at volume could easily overexcurse the woofer and that would be the end. I cross those speakers at 60hz. This protects the woofer, gives the subwoofer the work it was designed to do, and enhances the quality of the sound.
Another example with my standmounts, rated down to 34Hz and crossed at 80: when running a series of test tones through my system I was surprised to see my woofers moving when using tones in the low 20s! That signal is still there!!! The speaker is not bypassed.
The DefTech speakers are nowhere near capable of doing what your PB16 can do for you. Look at the review I posted earlier. The measured frequency response is nowhere near what DT advertises, and physics alone should explain it. Low bass reproduction requires large cabinets: much larger than the size of those towers, and orders of magnitude larger than the center channel. You have an absolute beast of a Sub which is actually way more capable of doing the job you insist those towers and center should do. Use it!

As far as Audyssey goes, I think you will have better success understanding it with the App. It does present its own challenges, but the control it gives you is a significant improvement over the on-board AVR version.

Visual aid...

 

[ryanosaur]

Visual aid...

Thank you... was on my phone... hate linking sh!t when I'm on my phone!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Thank you... was on my phone... hate linking sh!t when I'm on my phone!

Lol. Me too. What I DO like about Tapatalk is how easy it is to post picks and links. I also have a lot of pics on my phone such as the one above. It’s like 3 button pushes to post one. Niiice!!!