Help Improving SQ for two channel?

[PENG]

And by air you mean the ambience of the room? I’ve yet to hear a good classical recording so I’ll be looking forward to that, I’ll let you know which one I went with.

To me, it is a description for the tonal characteristics of mostly brass instruments. Poor recordings generally don't allow you to hear the "air" vibration that you would hear in "live" venues, including small salvation army bands that often perform in shopping malls around Christmas time. I think guys like @lovinthehd , @shadyJ can do a better job explaining.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The B&W 682 on-axis FR looks like +/-4dB. So not too bad. Off-axis of all B&W are usually not great.

 

[lovinthehd]

To me, it is a description for the tonal characteristics of mostly brass instruments. Poor recordings generally don't allow you to hear the "air" vibration that you would hear in "live" venues, including small salvation army bands that often perform in shopping malls around Christmas time. I think guys like @lovinthehd , @shadyJ can do a better job explaining.

Don't look at me, the times I hear "air" is usually in some goofy review....and I tend to think it is the air in some audiophile's heads. I haven't had any particular issues with brass, altho beyond a few bands (like Tower of Power, Cold Blood, EW&F) don't listen to much. I did audition some speakers in the B&W 600 line a few years back, tho, and didn't particularly care for them.

 

[Grant.M]

To me, it is a description for the tonal characteristics of mostly brass instruments. Poor recordings generally don't allow you to hear the "air" vibration that you would hear in "live" venues, including small salvation army bands that often perform in shopping malls around Christmas time. I think guys like @lovinthehd , @shadyJ can do a better job explaining.

I’ve heard a couple live performances with a brass and get what you’re saying now!

 

[PENG]

Don't look at me, the times I hear "air" is usually in some goofy review....and I tend to think it is the air in some audiophile's heads. I haven't had any particular issues with brass, altho beyond a few bands (like Tower of Power, Cold Blood, EW&F) don't listen to much. I did audition some speakers in the B&W 600 line a few years back, tho, and didn't particularly care for them.

You must have very naturally airy speakers lol..

 

[lovinthehd]

You must have very naturally airy speakers lol..

My horn speakers do have a lot of air around the transducer.....

 

[KEW]

Hey Grant,
Assuming you have a BestBuy nearby, Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr). At the current 20% discount to $2400/pr (Crutchfield or BestBuy) these are not a bad deal. I have not invested time evaluating the market at this price range, so do look at the competition, but I don't think you would have any regrets with these speakers!
I would forget about replacing any of the other gear and put your money into speakers-they just make a huge difference compared to the electronics!
That said, @PENG is our electronics guru and if he has reason to suspect the volume control in your Yamaha, you can get a "PENG approved" Denon AVR-X3500H (open box with full 3year warranty) for $550! You may not have heard of Acessories4Less, but many of us have bought from them and they have become my "go to" (they usually have the best price, although it always is worthwhile to check Amazon in case there is some type of special happening before ordering). They run a honest business. They will charge a restocking fee if you return something simply because "you didn't like it", but I consider that fair because compared to most businesses, their mark up does not include the cost of a satisfaction guarantee. Of course, if it is defective, they will not charge a restocking fee!
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3500haob/denon-avr-x3500h-7.2-ch-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new-repack/1.html

But save where you can and put your money into the best speakers you can afford! Tell us your budget and we can help you out!

Personally, when I see someone with the kind of gear you have, I expect to see much better speakers paired with it. I have speakers at over $4,000 (MSRP) for the pair and only use a $120 Sony DVD player to play CD's. I also have an Oppo, but I would defy you to pick between them in a blind test! I stick with Sony BD players because they support the SACD format (I assume Sony developed SACD) without paying for anything extra to get it!

I checked out B&W 600 series speakers and was not at all impressed, but that was 10 years ago and I suspect they have modified them since.

 

[ryanosaur]

Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr).

Unless the price came down, they were 3K per pair when I listened last november...
But agree... they are very good speakers to hear, and a good pair to use as a benchmark. If I had the cash in my pocket that night, I might have walked out the door with a whole ML rig.
Glad I waited.

 

[Grant.M]

Hey Grant,
Assuming you have a BestBuy nearby, Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr).
I would forget about replacing any of the other gear and put your money into speakers-they just make a huge difference compared to the electronics!
That said, @PENG is our electronics guru and if he has reason to suspect the volume control in your Yamaha, you can get a "PENG approved" Denon AVR-X3500H (open box with full 3year warranty) for $550! You may not have heard of Acessories4Less, but many of us have bought from them and they have become my "go to" (they usually have the best price, although it always is worthwhile to check Amazon in case there is some type of special happening before ordering). They run a honest business. They will charge a restocking fee if you return something simply because "you didn't like it", but I consider that fair because compared to most businesses, their mark up does not include the cost of a satisfaction guarantee. Of course, if it is defective, they will not charge a restocking fee!
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3500haob/denon-avr-x3500h-7.2-ch-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new-repack/1.html

But save where you can and put your money into the best speakers you can afford! Tell us your budget and we can help you out!

Personally, when I see someone with the kind of gear you have, I expect to see much better speakers paired with it. I have speakers at over $4,000 (MSRP) for the pair and only use a $120 Sony DVD player to play CD's. I also have an Oppo, but I would defy you to pick between them in a blind test! I stick with Sony BD players because they support the SACD format (I assume Sony developed SACD) without paying for anything extra to get it!

I checked out B&W 600 series speakers and was not at all impressed, but that was 10 years ago and I suspect they have modified them since.

I actually was planning to stop by BestBuy and take a look at a few TV’s (that 720p life just isn’t cutting it anymore lol),so while I’m there I’ll have a listen! I also took notes on PENG’s recommendations for AVR’s/AVP’s when I do go to upgrade. I had no idea Sony player can inherently play SACD’s, I’ll have to pick one up down the line as my ERC-3 cannot play them sadly. I’ll take a look around accessories4less as well.

I would like to keep my budget under $3500, I don’t have all the funds at the moment but will definitely be upgrading by early next year.

Edit:
Also what do you guys think about DIY or DIY kits? I have a good bit experience with woodworking and soldering so I’m pretty sure I can do it. I’m just not sure if it’d be worth the extra time to have to do everything myself.

 

[Old Onkyo]

Hey Grant,
Assuming you have a BestBuy nearby, Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr).
I would forget about replacing any of the other gear and put your money into speakers-they just make a huge difference compared to the electronics!
That said, @PENG is our electronics guru and if he has reason to suspect the volume control in your Yamaha, you can get a "PENG approved" Denon AVR-X3500H (open box with full 3year warranty) for $550! You may not have heard of Acessories4Less, but many of us have bought from them and they have become my "go to" (they usually have the best price, although it always is worthwhile to check Amazon in case there is some type of special happening before ordering). They run a honest business. They will charge a restocking fee if you return something simply because "you didn't like it", but I consider that fair because compared to most businesses, their mark up does not include the cost of a satisfaction guarantee. Of course, if it is defective, they will not charge a restocking fee!
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3500haob/denon-avr-x3500h-7.2-ch-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new-repack/1.html

But save where you can and put your money into the best speakers you can afford! Tell us your budget and we can help you out!

Personally, when I see someone with the kind of gear you have, I expect to see much better speakers paired with it. I have speakers at over $4,000 (MSRP) for the pair and only use a $120 Sony DVD player to play CD's. I also have an Oppo, but I would defy you to pick between them in a blind test! I stick with Sony BD players because they support the SACD format (I assume Sony developed SACD) without paying for anything extra to get it!

I checked out B&W 600 series speakers and was not at all impressed, but that was 10 years ago and I suspect they have modified them since.

What are examples of equivalent speakers to the ML,s for less?

 

[PENG]

I had no idea Sony player can inherently play SACD’s,

I know this is almost true (probably not 100%) for the older models. Now, I have the impression that the entry level ones don't, but probably all the 4K models do.

 

[Grant.M]

I know this is almost true (probably not 100%) for the older models. Now, I have the impression that the entry level ones don't, but probably all the 4K models do.

Good to know, thanks PENG!

 

[snakeeyes]

Hey Grant,
Assuming you have a BestBuy nearby, Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr).
I would forget about replacing any of the other gear and put your money into speakers-they just make a huge difference compared to the electronics!
That said, @PENG is our electronics guru and if he has reason to suspect the volume control in your Yamaha, you can get a "PENG approved" Denon AVR-X3500H (open box with full 3year warranty) for $550! You may not have heard of Acessories4Less, but many of us have bought from them and they have become my "go to" (they usually have the best price, although it always is worthwhile to check Amazon in case there is some type of special happening before ordering). They run a honest business. They will charge a restocking fee if you return something simply because "you didn't like it", but I consider that fair because compared to most businesses, their mark up does not include the cost of a satisfaction guarantee. Of course, if it is defective, they will not charge a restocking fee!
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3500haob/denon-avr-x3500h-7.2-ch-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new-repack/1.html

But save where you can and put your money into the best speakers you can afford! Tell us your budget and we can help you out!

Personally, when I see someone with the kind of gear you have, I expect to see much better speakers paired with it. I have speakers at over $4,000 (MSRP) for the pair and only use a $120 Sony DVD player to play CD's. I also have an Oppo, but I would defy you to pick between them in a blind test! I stick with Sony BD players because they support the SACD format (I assume Sony developed SACD) without paying for anything extra to get it!

I checked out B&W 600 series speakers and was not at all impressed, but that was 10 years ago and I suspect they have modified them since.

I would make sure any flaws that Peng mentions are considered because he is very knowledgeable.

Hey Grant,
Assuming you have a BestBuy nearby, Take a listen to the Martin Logan 60XT's (it may be that it has to be a BB with Magnolia room). These speakers have the type of sound we would tend to call neutral and are most like the ones Ryan mentioned. We don't recommend these speakers so much because you can get equivalent for less; but if you just want to have a listen locally, the 60XT is a good speaker (and the price isn't terrible, $2500/pr).
I would forget about replacing any of the other gear and put your money into speakers-they just make a huge difference compared to the electronics!
That said, @PENG is our electronics guru and if he has reason to suspect the volume control in your Yamaha, you can get a "PENG approved" Denon AVR-X3500H (open box with full 3year warranty) for $550! You may not have heard of Acessories4Less, but many of us have bought from them and they have become my "go to" (they usually have the best price, although it always is worthwhile to check Amazon in case there is some type of special happening before ordering). They run a honest business. They will charge a restocking fee if you return something simply because "you didn't like it", but I consider that fair because compared to most businesses, their mark up does not include the cost of a satisfaction guarantee. Of course, if it is defective, they will not charge a restocking fee!
https://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/denavrx3500haob/denon-avr-x3500h-7.2-ch-x-105-watts-a/v-receiver-w/heos-new-repack/1.html

But save where you can and put your money into the best speakers you can afford! Tell us your budget and we can help you out!

Personally, when I see someone with the kind of gear you have, I expect to see much better speakers paired with it. I have speakers at over $4,000 (MSRP) for the pair and only use a $120 Sony DVD player to play CD's. I also have an Oppo, but I would defy you to pick between them in a blind test! I stick with Sony BD players because they support the SACD format (I assume Sony developed SACD) without paying for anything extra to get it!

I checked out B&W 600 series speakers and was not at all impressed, but that was 10 years ago and I suspect they have modified them since.

I’m not sure if trying different subs might change things as well.

 

[Pogre]

I actually was planning to stop by BestBuy and take a look at a few TV’s (that 720p life just isn’t cutting it anymore lol),so while I’m there I’ll have a listen! I also took notes on PENG’s recommendations for AVR’s/AVP’s when I do go to upgrade. I had no idea Sony player can inherently play SACD’s, I’ll have to pick one up down the line as my ERC-3 cannot play them sadly. I’ll take a look around accessories4less as well.

I would like to keep my budget under $3500, I don’t have all the funds at the moment but will definitely be upgrading by early next year.

Edit:
Also what do you guys think about DIY or DIY kits? I have a good bit experience with woodworking and soldering so I’m pretty sure I can do it. I’m just not sure if it’d be worth the extra time to have to do everything myself.

If I had really good woodwork and finishing skills I probably would have gone the diy route. I still might. There are a couple of kits that caught my attention and I'd really like to give it a try someday.

 

[2channel lover]

Thank you for taking the time to write that reply PENG! You brought up some interesting points regarding recordings that I never thought of before. I’ll order a good classical album and give that a shot and see if I still feel the way about the performance of the speakers. And I will admit that I didn’t hear a crazy difference at low volumes with the amps, but where they really shined for me is the higher listening volume and dynamics, it may not be the best for my ears but I like it loud, I listen at near concert levels (90+Db with 100+Db peaks) half the time. I saved those frequency response graphs you provided so I have reference for comparison in case I have to order online direct for my upgrades. I do know frequency graphs don’t tell the whole story but they do give an idea of the sound characteristics.

If you guys don’t mind what would you recommend as an upgrade for my Yamaha, would separates be the way to go at this point and just add a multi channel amp for HT later?

Also a huge question for you PENG, do think there will be that noticeable of a difference between the XPA-1’s and say the Parasound Halo 21, (I was planning on getting that amp within the next year)?

Thanks for everything again guys!

As a long time owner of B&W speakers...the 600 series and 700 series have gotten better as a whole, but most of the R&D money and best SQ comes from their 800 series speakers.

I have a pair a 804M that still sound pretty good, but once compared with my current neutral speakers (Salk Song3A) they are nice speakers, but not nearly as accurate. So...for a person that likes music as much as you appear to new speakers would most likely be your fastest path to improving SQ.

Speakers, source player, source material...the order may differ from one person to the next, but these 3 factors is what I focused on when I rebuilt my new system.

 

[Grant.M]

I would make sure any flaws that Peng mentions are considered because he is very knowledgeable.



I’m not sure if trying different subs might change things as well.

I’ve been listening closely (or reading ) to his advice. And I’m happy with the subs I have at the moment. They punch way above their weight and the SQ is great, better or on par with every $1000+ sub I’ve heard actually. They also only costed me ~$450 each to build. With all that said, I do want to build an absolute beast of a sub with dual 15”s or 18”s! Never can have too many subs!

 

[Grant.M]

If I had really good woodwork and finishing skills I probably would have gone the diy route. I still might. There are a couple of kits that caught my attention and I'd really like to give it a try someday.

I might go for the DIY route, only time will tell though. I say go for it! I built my subs last year and had a blast. I also have to say there is something special when you take enjoyment in something you made!

 

[Grant.M]

As a long time owner of B&W speakers...the 600 series and 700 series have gotten better as a whole, but most of the R&D money and best SQ comes from their 800 series speakers.

I have a pair a 804M that still sound pretty good, but once compared with my current neutral speakers (Salk Song3A) they are nice speakers, but not nearly as accurate. So...for a person that likes music as much as you appear to new speakers would most likely be your fastest path to improving SQ.

Speakers, source player, source material...the order may differ from one person to the next, but these 3 factors is what I focused on when I rebuilt my new system.

Awesome, and I’ve heard a couple speaker in 800 line and was really impressed, haven’t heard any Salks yet though. I’m going to most likely upgrade my speakers first then upgrade the AVR to a nicer separate.

 

[KEW]

Unless the price came down, they were 3K per pair when I listened last november...
But agree... they are very good speakers to hear, and a good pair to use as a benchmark. If I had the cash in my pocket that night, I might have walked out the door with a whole ML rig.
Glad I waited.

If I simply google "Martin Logan 60XT" (I was just making sure I got the model number right), both Crutchfield and Best Buy pop up with the price at $1200 ea.!
I don't know if this is a temporary special or the current street price.
I did see them still being sold somewhere(?) at $1500ea.

 

[KEW]

I actually was planning to stop by BestBuy and take a look at a few TV’s (that 720p life just isn’t cutting it anymore lol),so while I’m there I’ll have a listen! I also took notes on PENG’s recommendations for AVR’s/AVP’s when I do go to upgrade. I had no idea Sony player can inherently play SACD’s, I’ll have to pick one up down the line as my ERC-3 cannot play them sadly. I’ll take a look around accessories4less as well.

I would like to keep my budget under $3500, I don’t have all the funds at the moment but will definitely be upgrading by early next year.

Edit:
Also what do you guys think about DIY or DIY kits? I have a good bit experience with woodworking and soldering so I’m pretty sure I can do it. I’m just not sure if it’d be worth the extra time to have to do everything myself.

I believe PENG is right. All of the Sony BD players I have looked at had SACD, but I am not sure it is automatic.
In store, just look for the oval SACD (it says "Super Audio CD" under the oval) symbol like below, just to the right of the Bluetooth icon:

With a background in woodworking and soldiering, I think DIY is a pretty good option for you to save a little money.
There is a lot of overlap with this sub-forum, but you may want to post with a budget and query for suggestions on good DIY options on the AH DIY sub-forum here:

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/audio/diy-corner-tips-techniques.22/

If you have any insecurities on your skill level, you might consider building a couple of smaller (less expensive) surrounds before the mains. There is also the option of buying the crossover pre-built on some of the designs.