The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

[shkumar4963]

I think it's all about personal taste.

I also prefer separates for EVERYTHING - speakers, subs, pre-pro, amps, etc.

All my subwoofers have Separate External Amps, not internal amps.

But Separates isn't for everyone. Some people even prefer to put almost everything - amps, processors, and EQ/DSP all inside the speakers!

Can you imagine what happens if some newbie bought speakers with everything inside them and when they plug in the speakers, there's no sound?

Is it the speaker drivers? Speaker wire? Amps inside the speakers? Processor inside the speakers? EQ/DSP inside the speakers?

Now I'm not saying that putting all the amps, processor, EQ, DSP, etc. inside the speaker is the same thing as putting processor and amps inside the AVR.

But the question is, which is worse?

A. Putting amps, processors, EQ/DSP inside the speakers?

B. Putting amps and processors inside the AVR?

I would think that # A is worse than # B since now you're putting the ENTIRE AVR inside the speaker.

So then we're not just talking Separates vs AVR. We're now talking about Separates vs AVR-Inside-Speakers.

It is all about " if there are synergies between different components that you can take advantage of by putting them in one package?

For example, one can set up a DSP by measuring anachoic frequency response of a speaker. That will be a better correction for speaker deficiencies.

There are other speaker deficiencies that can be corrected or mitigated by an on board DSP as Kef LS50W has done.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It is all about " if there are synergies between different components that you can take advantage of by putting them in one package?

For example, one can set up a DSP by measuring anachoic frequency response of a speaker. That will be a better correction for speaker deficiencies

Everything, including EQ/DSP/Procesing, can be done externally. There is no reason to stuff them inside the speaker IMO.

For speaker measurements, many guys are using the $92 UMIK1 mic + REW to measure the response of our speakers and then using EQ to improve the response.

Another example is the Linkwitz Orion active speakers, which I used to own. It is fully active with Analog Crossover/DSP, which is 100% external.

I guess matching the right processor + EQ + amp + voltage + gain inside the AVR can also be seen as "synergistic".

With AVR, you don't have to worry about matching Input/Output Voltage Sensitivity. Definitely don't have to worry about any Ground-Loop Hum noise you see from external amps.

I don't see anyone saying anything "synergistic" about AVRs and how all those internal components are better matched with one another.

 

[Auditor55]

I was in BestBuy in Lafayette, went in there to pick up Blade Runner 2049 and found Blade Runner directors final cut also. Anyway since I was there already I took a walk to their magnolia department, and guess what was front and center 2 McIntosh tube monoblock amps gorgeous with the blue meters setting on top of a rack with their pre-amp hooked up to a pair of B&W's the ones with the tweeter on top of the speaker. Man I stood there for 20 minutes. was mesmerised. Theirs this movie it's " The Departed" with Jack Nicholson, anyways in one scene about three-quarters of the way through the movie this chick gets this cassette tape given to her but if anything happened to this dude for her to play it. Well guess what she slap that cassette tape in, all McIntosh gear! From cassette deck to preamp amp with them blue meters. I have that movie watched it many times and I still freeze frame when she slaps that tape in just to ..yeah I'm old school I miss my Carver amp with them VU meters. Long after that bad ass car you have has been sold off your McIntosh gear will still be kicking 15 years down the road! You can't put a price on the enjoyment you'll get out of your system 15 years down the road. Diminishing returns? Umm Money well spent my friend.

The point of Diminishing returns, I believe applies to amount of money spend and what you get back in return for that money, sonically speaking. McIntosh gear is very expensive, why would I buy it If I could achieve my sonic goals at half the price of McIntosh. For example, the McIntosh MAC7200 Stereo Receiver has a list price of $7500. Why would anyone spend that kind of money for stereo receiver when you can spend a lot less and achieve the same sonic goals. Even if you already had a two channel system, that cost about $1500 and wanted to upgrade to the McIntosh MAC7200, at 5x the price of you existing two channel set up, would you get 5x the sonic improvement, probably not. That is an example of diminishing returns.

 

[Mikado463]

The point of Diminishing returns, I believe applies to amount of money spend and what you get back in return for that money, sonically speaking. McIntosh gear is very expensive, why would I buy it If I could achieve my sonic goals at half the price of McIntosh. For example, the McIntosh MAC7200 Stereo Receiver has a list price of $7500. Why would anyone spend that kind of money for stereo receiver when you can spend a lot less and achieve the same sonic goals. Even if you already had a two channel system, that cost about $1500 and wanted to upgrade to the McIntosh MAC7200, at 5x the price of you existing two channel set up, would you get 5x the sonic improvement, probably not. That is an example of diminishing returns.

while all true I know of know of no one in their right mind with a $1500 system that would drop $7500 on a 'receiver' upgrade, $7500 on a 'speaker' upgrade I could see .........

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

McIntosh MAC7200 Stereo Receiver has a list price of $7500. Why would anyone spend that kind of money for stereo receiver when you can spend a lot less and achieve the same sonic goals.

You're no fun at all.

 

[Auditor55]

while all true I know of know of no one in their right mind with a $1500 system that would drop $7500 on a 'receiver' upgrade, $7500 on a 'speaker' upgrade I could see .........

So why does such a product exist, obviously there is some kind of market for it.

 

[Mikado463]

So why does such a product exist, obviously there is some kind of market for it.

obviously you are very young and or with limited knowledge of the name McIntosh. Believe it or not, for some folks $7500 is mere chump change .........

 

[HTfreak2004]

Sure AcuDefTechGuy,

As long as any component has more than one purpose(integrated) there will inevitably be some loss of performance if one or more of those purposes require high power demands.

Perhaps with regards to an integrated speaker multiple power cords serving each purpose could improve performance instead of attempting to cut corners on cost.

Sadly most companies don’t start making their best gear until a cost no object approach is used!

That leaves us the enthusiasts to separate the components into their respective rolls when that last 10-20% of performance matters.

It kinda sucks that the small percentage is usually as expensive if not more expensive than the whole other 80%. Damn law of diminishing returns

 

[Verdinut]

Sure AcuDefTechGuy,

As long as any component has more than one purpose(integrated) there will inevitably be some loss of performance if one or more of those purposes require high power demands.

In most homes, the question of power demand and inadequate AC circuit current doesn't apply.

On most channels, it only takes a few watts to drive the speakers, unless someone has a very large listening room, sits 20 feet away from the speakers and listens to his system at ear bleeding levels.

 

[HTfreak2004]

Agreed yet any overloaded circuit is an overloaded circuit! Pays to know what’s in the wall.

 

[Phase 2]

So why does such a product exist, obviously there is some kind of market for it.

Yep, for people who really want high-gear. It's like why buy a Ferrari when a Volkswagen will get you from point a to point b. If I was big money grip? Oh hell yeah McIntosh gear Pass Lab and them 250,000,00k speakers that look like a hourglass that stand 6ft tall. Plus I would pay Gene and Hugo to come set it all up just so I could meet them in person.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In most homes, the question of power demand and inadequate AC circuit current doesn't apply.

On most channels, it only takes a few watts to drive the speakers, unless someone has a very large listening room, sits 20 feet away from the speakers and listens to his system at ear bleeding levels.

Yep. I think even 20FT isn’t really that far/power-demanding when speakers have a sensitivity of 88-90dB/2.83V/m.

I definitely don’t think inadequate power supply is the cause of “lesser” sound quality.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If I was big money grip

Mike, I thought you were becoming big money grip.

 

[liquid360]

I was in BestBuy in Lafayette, went in there to pick up Blade Runner 2049 and found Blade Runner directors final cut also. Anyway since I was there already I took a walk to their magnolia department, and guess what was front and center 2 McIntosh tube monoblock amps gorgeous with the blue meters setting on top of a rack with their pre-amp hooked up to a pair of B&W's the ones with the tweeter on top of the speaker. Man I stood there for 20 minutes. was mesmerised. Theirs this movie it's " The Departed" with Jack Nicholson, anyways in one scene about three-quarters of the way through the movie this chick gets this cassette tape given to her but if anything happened to this dude for her to play it. Well guess what she slap that cassette tape in, all McIntosh gear! From cassette deck to preamp amp with them blue meters. I have that movie watched it many times and I still freeze frame when she slaps that tape in just to ..yeah I'm old school I miss my Carver amp with them VU meters. Long after that bad ass car you have has been sold off your McIntosh gear will still be kicking 15 years down the road! You can't put a price on the enjoyment you'll get out of your system 15 years down the road. Diminishing returns? Umm Money well spent my friend.

We certainly share similar tastes. I have a pair of those. You’re exactly right. I bought separates for this reason partly. The preamp ill likely replace every few years, but not the amps. They’ll be performing as is for decades.
Should I ever decide to sell, they hold their value. Also, I was able to buy these at a terrific price. The MC303 I bought simply to see what an amp like it can do. It took myself and two other guys to get into the rack. It’s a monster, hard to gauge from photos. I’m loving my new setup.

Ps. Why am I selling my car?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[HTfreak2004]

In most homes, the question of power demand and inadequate AC circuit current doesn't apply.

On most channels, it only takes a few watts to drive the speakers, unless someone has a very large listening room, sits 20 feet away from the speakers and listens to his system at ear bleeding levels.

I like bleeding ears! Titus ear is a good measure of making a point

 

[HTfreak2004]

Tinnitus sorry

 

[HTfreak2004]

We certainly share similar tastes. I have a pair of those. You’re exactly right. I bought separates for this reason partly. The preamp ill likely replace every few years, but not the amps. They’ll be performing as is for decades.
Should I ever decide to sell, they hold their value. Also, I was able to buy these at a terrific price. The MC303 I bought simply to see what an amp like it can do. It took myself and two other guys to get into the rack. It’s a monster, hard to gauge from photos. I’m loving my new setup.

Ps. Why am I selling my car?!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Little bit of money there beautiful speakers

 

[Auditor55]

obviously you are very young and or with limited knowledge of the name McIntosh. Believe it or not, for some folks $7500 is mere chump change .........

I know that. When I see people buying $1000 bottle of wine I wonder how much better is over a $60.00 one. I wonder if the grapes are grown in the Garden of Eden or something.

 

[Auditor55]

Yep, for people who really want high-gear. It's like why buy a Ferrari when a Volkswagen will get you from point a to point b. If I was big money grip? Oh hell yeah McIntosh gear Pass Lab and them 250,000,00k speakers that look like a hourglass that stand 6ft tall. Plus I would pay Gene and Hugo to come set it all up just so I could meet them in person.

People can buy what they want, I'm just saying they don't need to. When it comes to Ferrari vs Volkswagen, there are measurable and vast differences between the two cars. A better analogy would be if you could purchase a Volkswagen with same or similar performance, why purchase a Ferrari at 10 times the cost? That's diminishing returns.

Again, people can buy what they want, that is why we have 5,000 speaker cables, because there's a market.

If only I could find a way to market $1,000 a roll (high-end) tissue paper, much better than Charmin and Cottonelle, there must be a market out there somewhere.

 

[liquid360]

People can buy what they want, I'm just saying they don't need to. When it comes to Ferrari vs Volkswagen, there are measurable and vast differences between the two cars. A better analogy would be if you could purchase a Volkswagen with same or similar performance, why purchase a Ferrari at 10 times the cost? That's diminishing returns.

Again, people can buy what they want, that is why we have 5,000 speaker cables, because there's a market.

If only I could find a way to market $1,000 a roll (high-end) tissue paper, much better than Charmin and Cottonelle, there must be a market out there somewhere.

The reason for buying a Ferrari has FAR FAR FAR less to do with performance than the rest of the car. If you need an analogy, why buy an original Van Gogh when you can buy a computer generated copy, accurate to the nano, for next to nothing? Because one is a Van Gogh and one isn’t. To each his own.