The SEPARATES vs. AVR Thread

Do Separates (Preamps or Pre-pros + Amps) Sound Better Than AVRs in Direct/Bypass Modes?

  • Yes, Separates sound better than AVRs

    Votes: 40 47.6%
  • No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same

    Votes: 22 26.2%
  • No, Separates and AVRs sound about the same when they are similar in price range

    Votes: 22 26.2%

  • Total voters
    84
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...Anyone claiming to buy high end audio strictly for the sound isn’t being honest..
Well, I think some people do genuinely truly honestly believe that high-end separates do sound better than AVR.

It may not be PROVEN scientifically, but they may honestly believe it.
 
Good4it

Good4it

Audioholic Chief
Well, I think some people do genuinely truly honestly believe that high-end separates do sound better than AVR.

It may not be PROVEN scientifically, but they may honestly believe it.

Is there any Proof? Other than in speakers? Proof would be reviews or beach tests? Just asking. Looks are one way to enjoy nice setups. But a good lookin thing can be ugly when you are with it awhile ( women, cars and yards come to mind).

I mean BENCH tests.]
 
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liquid360

Junior Audioholic
Can't say about others, but I enjoy looking at your setup! This hobby has many ways to enjoy it. Some have modest setups, some like You, Gene, ADTG, TLS Guy..have really high end setups, which I speaking for myself enjoy looking at. It's nice to see when members on AH post up photos of their gear.
Well stated. There are those with far more modest systems than mine who appreciate theirs more than I do and get more joy. Level of enjoyment has no correlation to cost. Also there’s no real top to the mountain, but it’s always fun to dream what’s next.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
not for me, I'd hate getting sand in all my gear ...........
Lolo..man AH rules! I just saw Rogers typo. Lol...come to think of it, Mikado, you think sand could short out a AVR if some got in it? :p Nice catch bro! Lol when I read your post at first I was like, what he talking about, than I reread Roger post and saw his typo. God knows you ole timers didn't cut me no slack with typos. ;)
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Lolo..man AH rules! I just saw Rogers typo. Lol...come to think of it, Mikado, you think sand could short out a AVR if some got in it? :p Nice catch bro! Lol when I read your post at first I was like, what he talking about, than I reread Roger post and saw his typo. God knows you ole timers didn't cut me no slack with typos. ;)
all in good fun, life's too short to take this too serious !
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Is there any Proof? Other than in speakers? Proof would be reviews or beach tests? Just asking. Looks are one way to enjoy nice setups. But a good lookin thing can be ugly when you are with it awhile ( women, cars and yards come to mind).
We can see that some separates (especially higher-end) measure better than AVR.

Like the Anthem AVM60 SNR of ~129dB, Marantz AV8802 SNR ~130dB, Yamaha CX-A5100 SNR ~131dB, while the $3500 Anthem 1120 AVR has a SNR ~109dB.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review-test-bench

And AudioControl’s $5500 AVR has a SNR of 99dB.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audiocontrol-concert-avr-1-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

But there is no blind test/ audible proof that the pre-pro sounds better.
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
Is there any Proof? Other than in speakers? Proof would be reviews or beach tests? Just asking. Looks are one way to enjoy nice setups. But a good lookin thing can be ugly when you are with it awhile ( women, cars and yards come to mind).
I agree, most start to look like men after they get past menopause. :eek: An old man once told me, before you marry that woman, go see what her Mother and grandma looks like after you sober up. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
We can see that some separates (especially higher-end) measure better than AVR.

Like the Anthem AVM60 SNR of ~129dB, Marantz AV8802 SNR ~130dB, Yamaha CX-A5100 SNR ~131dB, while the $3500 Anthem 1120 AVR has a SNR ~109dB.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/anthem-mrx-1120-av-receiver-review-test-bench

And AudioControl’s $5500 AVR has a SNR of 99dB.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/audiocontrol-concert-avr-1-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

But there is no blind test/ audible proof that the pre-pro sounds better.
Apples to oranges! S&V's SNR were measured at the speaker terminals, not pre outs right? Some AVR they measured don't even have pre outs for them access.
 
D

Daniel Steixner

Enthusiast
With due respect, that's your subjective opinion, and others may have their own different experience/opinions. It is a good thing to share opinions though. I own quite a few separate gear, but I own them not because they sound better to me (that may the case when I first started in this hobby, way back..), and to me it is the quality of the media/source and speakers that make most, if not all the difference.
A subjective opinion was all it was. No DBT. Just sharing my own thoughts around what I've heard (or perceived to hear).
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
I have always had integrated receivers. I began to buy equipment a couple weeks ago and just completed the install a couple days ago of a completely new separate setup/theater. It’s obviously not for everyone, but damn, I LOVE it.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Staring at the meters waiting for them to move!!:oops:.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Apples to oranges! S&V's SNR were measured at the speaker terminals, not pre outs right? Some AVR they measured don't even have pre outs for them access.
Good point. I didn't see if the SNR's were measured from the Pre-outs of the AVR's that had pre-outs.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Good point. I didn't see if the SNR's were measured from the Pre-outs of the AVR's that had pre-outs.
Either way, I think it is pretty well established that the worst SNR numbers among modern gear are below audible thresholds.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Either way, I think it is pretty well established that the worst SNR numbers among modern gear are below audible thresholds.
Yeah. It's a case of lab-numbers vs. real-life and "inaudible" vs. "state of the art" (and how much are people willing to pay for SOTA).
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Good point. I didn't see if the SNR's were measured from the Pre-outs of the AVR's that had pre-outs.
The difference wouldn't be much, may be a few dB, iirc I asked Gene that question before. Marantz SNR specs for their prepros and AVRs are the same, it is the S&V measurements that show much better numbers for the prepros. I also think you and I both consider 105 to 110 dB A weighted is usually good enough for people with non golden ears though we naturally prefer 120 to 130 dB.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
we naturally prefer 120 to 130 dB.
Yeah, SOTA, as Gene would say. :D

As for AVR vs Pre-pro SNR, I looked at Gene's measurement of the Denon AVR-5805 vs AVP-A1HDCI, and the 5805 AVR actually had better SNR by 1dB. :D

AVR-5805 SNR = 96dB unweighted, AVP-A1HDCI SNR 95dB unweighted.

So much for "Fully Balanced from Input-to-Output" Separates Pre-pro. :D

Well, we could go round and round forever when debating AVR vs Separates or anything in this hobby. But it comes down to a lot more than just audio and video.
 
L

liquid360

Junior Audioholic
Staring at the meters waiting for them to move!!:oops:.
LOL What originally caused me to gravitate towards McIntosh was their iOS app. It’s so silly, but there’s just something about those glowing blue meters that is absolutely mesmerizing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Phase 2

Phase 2

Audioholic Chief
LOL What originally caused me to gravitate towards McIntosh was their iOS app. It’s so silly, but there’s just something about those glowing blue meters that is absolutely mesmerizing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I was in BestBuy in Lafayette, went in there to pick up Blade Runner 2049 and found Blade Runner directors final cut also. Anyway since I was there already I took a walk to their magnolia department, and guess what was front and center 2 McIntosh tube monoblock amps gorgeous with the blue meters setting on top of a rack with their pre-amp hooked up to a pair of B&W's the ones with the tweeter on top of the speaker. Man I stood there for 20 minutes. was mesmerised. Theirs this movie it's " The Departed" with Jack Nicholson, anyways in one scene about three-quarters of the way through the movie this chick gets this cassette tape given to her but if anything happened to this dude for her to play it. Well guess what she slap that cassette tape in, all McIntosh gear! From cassette deck to preamp amp with them blue meters. I have that movie watched it many times and I still freeze frame when she slaps that tape in just to :oops:..yeah I'm old school I miss my Carver amp with them VU meters. Long after that bad ass car you have has been sold off your McIntosh gear will still be kicking 15 years down the road! You can't put a price on the enjoyment you'll get out of your system 15 years down the road. Diminishing returns? Umm Money well spent my friend.
 
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HTfreak2004

HTfreak2004

Senior Audioholic
Great point. My pre and pro are 15 years old and without HDMI but if something was a flagship product by a manufacturer in its day even when discontinued will not for any reason degrade quality in any way!

The most idiotic habit one can have is the assumption that human ears change because gear is changed in this industry. Gear can improve but our ears generally degrade over the years.

It’s easy to get carried away caught up with new formats promising better sound quality however this industry in general exhausted its VHS quality and promised DVD to replace it which now is the dinosaur being replaced by Bluray which is now old in the light of 4K.

As with any industry if we were just given the bloody 4K, lossless formats with gear designed to play them we wouldn’t need to constantly chase after the pot at the rainbows end.

How many versions of a movie do we really need in order to see it more than once??

Remember in order for a manufacturer to compete and survive in the tech age the last thing they would do is skip 40+ years of development and say here is the best we have to offer, where is the profit in that!

AVR and the Pre/Pros aren’t much different than each other in the overall end result unless you talk about the amp.

Not to many AVRs offer 1000 watts per channel RMS with 2000 watt peak stable into 2 ohms at least I’ve never heard of it but being honest nor have I researched that thought!

The need for such amp power is a personal one but not many consumers are into speakers in the price range worthy of a single mono-block outputting 1000 watts RMS either!

My personal taste is separates and regardless of the cost difference including all the wires connected between the units in my dedicated HT separates is to me no different than my 5 channel amp and sealed sub with its own amp!

Why should we choose separation instead of integrated? Dedicated purpose and power Supply. At the end of the day that may not sound like much but in an argument for separates but consider this my example below:

If I worked my chest today in the morning and waited until the Evening to train my back it sounds great in theory however the body has one digestive system with a limited capacity to extract energy from the food I eat.

Since I used energy earlier in the day that must be restored before adapting and growth can occur and by training again later there ends up being less energy for repairs and growth as a result of placing a larger deficit on the shoulders of the digestive system.

How you may ask is that example able to shed light on an audio setup?

Simple, unless the power supply is adequate to feed both the processing unit and separate amp channels there must be a give and take! That means with separate units they can pig out but together one must eat first leaving the left overs to the secondary feeder!

That’s the main reason a sub can be a beast since it shared no power if connected to a dedicated line with its own amp!

The key word “DEDICATED!” Having a singular purpose meant to whip ass:p
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
My personal taste is separates ....no different than ..... sealed sub with its own amp!
I think it's all about personal taste.

I also prefer separates for EVERYTHING - speakers, subs, pre-pro, amps, etc.

All my subwoofers have Separate External Amps, not internal amps.

But Separates isn't for everyone. Some people even prefer to put almost everything - amps, processors, and EQ/DSP all inside the speakers! :D

Can you imagine what happens if some newbie bought speakers with everything inside them and when they plug in the speakers, there's no sound?

Is it the speaker drivers? Speaker wire? Amps inside the speakers? Processor inside the speakers? EQ/DSP inside the speakers? :D

Now I'm not saying that putting all the amps, processor, EQ, DSP, etc. inside the speaker is the same thing as putting processor and amps inside the AVR.

But the question is, which is worse? :D

A. Putting amps, processors, EQ/DSP inside the speakers?

B. Putting amps and processors inside the AVR?

I would think that # A is worse than # B since now you're putting the ENTIRE AVR inside the speaker.

So then we're not just talking Separates vs AVR. We're now talking about Separates vs AVR-Inside-Speakers.
 
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