Pre-Outs

[Marty on St. Thomas]

My Pre-Pro died and a friend gave me an Onkyo TX-NR757. In my previous configuration I had an Acurus A250 (250w x 2) powering the Front L and R, a Rotel RB-993 (200w x 3) pushing the Center and Surround Backs, and an Acurus A150 (150 x 2) for the Side Surrounds. Calibrated as I had it, it sounded fantastic. But with this Onkyo, I’m a bit hesitant to use the unit’s internal amps due to the lower power ratings. From the user manual:

Rated Output Power (FTC)
With 8 ohm loads, both channels driven, from 20-20,000 Hz; rated 110 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.08% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.
Surround Mode Output Power (＊)
(6 ohms, 1 kHz THD 0.9%) 180 W per channel
＊Reference output for each speakers.
Depending on the source and the listening mode settings, there may be no sound output.
Dynamic Power (＊)
＊IEC60268-Short-term maximum output power
250 W (3 Ω, Front)
220 W (4 Ω, Front)
130 W (8 Ω, Front)

To me this looks like 110w RMS/130w Dynamic per channel, but with only two channels driven. How much power does it send to the other channels?? And the Surround Mode Output Power shows (6 ohms, 1 kHz THD 0.9%) 180 W per channel. So I’m a bit confused as to how much power will go to each speaker in my 7.1 setup if I use the internal amps.

On the back panel it has connectivity for Line Out for Zone 2 and Pre Outs for 2 Subwoofers. But no other Pre-Outs. Does this mean I MUST use the internal amps to drive all 7 speakers (except for the powered subs)? I can’t think of any way that I could use the Line Out, as the signal will only be L and R, correct? So, I guess I’m stuck with the Onkyo’s lower power until I can get another Pre-Pro (considering the Outlaw Audio Model 976, but maybe I should look for another brand so that I can decode Atmos/DTS-X?) Is 5.1.2 going to be better than 7.1? Or should I pick up a good Pre-Pro and some other height speakers and go 7.1.2? 9.1? 9.1.2?

I know I tossed out several questions/scenarios here, but any help/advice you guys have will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[Phase 2]

Yep. With no pre-amp outs, may I suggest Accessories4less. Com.
You can pickup a nice refurb with preamp outs with at least 1 year warranty. Check them out, but I'm not sure if they ship to where your at.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes indeed that avr has limited pre-outness. You could look for a bench test for an ACD (all channels driven) rating if that's what you're concerned about, otherwise at any given moment in a particular channel the avr should have the spec'd power available.

 

[Marty on St. Thomas]

I live in the U.S. Virgin Islands, so shipping is always an issue. So I just ship to my friends in the States and then have them ship to me. Costs more, but there’s a price for paradise, right? Haha!

So you think I’m better off with an AVR with Pre-Outs than getting a Pre-Pro?

 

[lovinthehd]

An avr with a full set of pre-outs can do quite nicely as a pre-pro and usually for less $.

 

[Marty on St. Thomas]

Yes indeed that avr has limited pre-outness. You could look for a bench test for an ACD (all channels driven) rating if that's what you're concerned about, otherwise at any given moment in a particular channel the avr should have the spec'd power available.

So I think I’d be better off with a Pre-Pro, right? I’ve got more power this way, and loads more headroom. I listen at reference levels and beyond...

 

[Marty on St. Thomas]

An avr with a full set of pre-outs can do quite nicely as a pre-pro and usually for less $.

Anything you’d recommend that I start looking at?

 

[Pogre]

I live in the U.S. Virgin Islands, so shipping is always an issue. So I just ship to my friends in the States and then have them ship to me. Costs more, but there’s a price for paradise, right? Haha!

So you think I’m better off with an AVR with Pre-Outs than getting a Pre-Pro?

That's the route I went, tho opinions vary greatly. I prefer mid to upper tier Marantz or Denon receivers for their Audyssey room correction software. I'm very happy using an AVR as a pre-pro, but many purists believe them to be inferior. I'm not educated enough to argue the differences so I usually don't.

 

[lovinthehd]

Altho this morning have been directed in this thread to this review/thread regarding some pre-out issues we were discussing: https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr8012-receiver

 

[lovinthehd]

So I think I’d be better off with a Pre-Pro, right? I’ve got more power this way, and loads more headroom. I listen at reference levels and beyond...

Personally I have an avr capable of going either way, a Denon 4520. If you want to use your amps such would work, or you can use on board amps. I'd probably stick to flagship avrs as closest to pre-pro performance but still usually at a lower price (especially if you wait for newer models to allow discount on older models). Somewhat depends what feature set you want....

 

[Swerd]

To me this looks like 110w RMS/130w Dynamic per channel, but with only two channels driven. How much power does it send to the other channels??

When any two channels are used, this AVR is rated to provide 110 watts per channel. The power available when all 7 channels are used will be less. Unless this has been measured, you won't know how much less.

And the Surround Mode Output Power shows (6 ohms, 1 kHz THD 0.9%) 180 W per channel. So I’m a bit confused as to how much power will go to each speaker in my 7.1 setup if I use the internal amps.

Ignore that 180 watt rating. Stick to the 110 wpc rating when two channels are used.

On the back panel it has connectivity for Line Out for Zone 2 and Pre Outs for 2 Subwoofers. But no other Pre-Outs. Does this mean I MUST use the internal amps to drive all 7 speakers (except for the powered subs)?

Yes. Try it and see how it sounds.

As mentioned by others above, there are AV receivers that do have pre-amp outputs for all 7 channels. In general, they perform just as well as a dedicated pre-amp/processor, and they're available in the US for substantially lower prices.

 

[PENG]

Anything you’d recommend that I start looking at?

The avr-x3400h or x4400h have excellent pre out voltage and audio specs. The x3500h/x4500h should be too. Your amps do have good input sensitivity except the Rotel, so even Yamaha's rx-a1070 or 1080 will be good too.

 

[baronvonellis]

Yea, I was wondering too if I get a Yamaha 3070 with a outlaw 7000 amp will that work fine, is there any reason to Get the Yamaha A5100 instead?

 

[PENG]

Yea, I was wondering too if I get a Yamaha 3070 with a outlaw 7000 amp will that work fine, is there any reason to Get the Yamaha A5100 instead?

Surely it would work fine if it satisfies your need, but I don't see much tangible gain in adding an Outlaw 7000 to a RX-A3070. The 3070 is more powerful in real world application, bet the Outlaw 7000 will measure much better in the 5 and 7 channel driven output category only.

The CX-A5100+Outlaw 7000 is at least logical while may not suit you best, depending on your power need, that you can easily figure out using an online calculator such as the frequently linked one below:

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[baronvonellis]

Surely it would work fine if it satisfies your need, but I don't see much tangible gain in adding an Outlaw 7000 to a RX-A3070. The 3070 is more powerful in real world application, bet the Outlaw 7000 will measure much better in the 5 and 7 channel driven output category only.

The CX-A5100+Outlaw 7000 is at least logical while may not suit you best, depending on your power need, that you can easily figure out using an online calculator such as the frequently linked one below:

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Oh, how do you know the 3070 is more powerful? The outlaw is 20 lbs heavier, I thought it would be a better quality amp to use. I would have 5 speakers. It's an A/B amp, is Yamaha a Class D amp? I can't find what class it is. I can't find what the 5 channel driven spec is for Yamaha. They show Max effective power and dynamic power, I don't know what those mean.

The A5100 is $900 more than the 3070, what would I gain by getting that one?

 

[Pogre]

Oh, how do you know the 3070 is more powerful? The outlaw is 20 lbs heavier, I thought it would be a better quality amp to use. I would have 5 speakers. It's an A/B amp, is Yamaha a Class D amp? I can't find what class it is. I can't find what the 5 channel driven spec is for Yamaha. They show Max effective power and dynamic power, I don't know what those mean.

The A5100 is $900 more than the 3070, what would I gain by getting that one?

Are you planning to drive all 5 channels simultaneously all the time? That rarely happens with 5.1 material. In 2 ch the Yamaha is the more powerful of the 2, if only a little. I don't think you'd be able to tell a lick of difference between it and the Outlaw as far as sq goes.

*Edit: If you're looking to throw some money at your system I'd suggest taking the money you'd spend on an amp and put it towards upgrading speakers. At least then you'll have a noticeable improvement in sq.

 

[Swerd]

Oh, how do you know the 3070 is more powerful?

The Yamaha RX-A3070 is rated at 150 wpc when 2 channels are driven (at 8 ohms, 0.06% THD, 20 Hz-20 kHz). Yamaha rates power output only when 2 channels are driven, as do most other makers. This meets the FTC requirements.

Note the price at Accesories4Less vs. the retail price for a new Yamaha RX-A3080.

The Outlaw 7000 is rated at 130 watts RMS × 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with <0.03% THD, and 200 watts RMS × 7 into 4 ohms (from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with <0.06% total harmonic distortion).

Except for the number of channels driven, these ratings were done under similar test conditions. If Outlaw included a power rating when 2 channels are driven, you would be able to directly compare these two products. Overall, I'd agree with PENG that the Outlaw doesn't provide a tangible gain in power compared to the 3070.

The outlaw is 20 lbs heavier, I thought it would be a better quality amp to use. I would have 5 speakers. It's an A/B amp, is Yamaha a Class D amp? I can't find what class it is. I can't find what the 5 channel driven spec is for Yamaha. They show Max effective power and dynamic power, I don't know what those mean.

Neither Yamaha nor Outlaw specify if their amps are class A/B or another class such as D. Considering their sizes, weights and prices, I think it's safe to assume they're both class A/B.

 

[baronvonellis]

Are you planning to drive all 5 channels simultaneously all the time? That rarely happens with 5.1 material. In 2 ch the Yamaha is the more powerful of the 2, if only a little. I don't think you'd be able to tell a lick of difference between it and the Outlaw as far as sq goes.

*Edit: If you're looking to throw some money at your system I'd suggest taking the money you'd spend on an amp and put it towards upgrading speakers. At least then you'll have a noticeable improvement in sq.

Yea, I'm listening to 5 channel SACD's so wouldn't that be 5 channels driven? The music plays out of all the channels, and also movies in surround.

I have a 5 channel system from Salk on order currently. So after I get those, I will be set with speakers, so I'm seeing what would be the best amp to match with those speakers.

 

[baronvonellis]

The Yamaha RX-A3070 is rated at 150 wpc when 2 channels are driven (at 8 ohms, 0.06% THD, 20 Hz-20 kHz). Yamaha rates power output only when 2 channels are driven, as do most other makers. This meets the FTC requirements.

Note the price at Accesories4Less vs. the retail price for a new Yamaha RX-A3080.

The Outlaw 7000 is rated at 130 watts RMS × 7 (all channels driven simultaneously into 8 ohms from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with <0.03% THD, and 200 watts RMS × 7 into 4 ohms (from 20 Hz to 20 kHz with <0.06% total harmonic distortion).

Except for the number of channels driven, these ratings were done under similar test conditions. If Outlaw included a power rating when 2 channels are driven, you would be able to directly compare these two products. Overall, I'd agree with PENG that the Outlaw doesn't provide a tangible gain in power compared to the 3070.
Neither Yamaha nor Outlaw specify if their amps are class A/B or another class such as D. Considering their sizes, weights and prices, I think it's safe to assume they're both class A/B.

OK, I see. In that case, that saves me alot of money. Yea, the Accesories4Less price is a very good deal!
I thought Gene is always saying to upgrade to a seperate amp? That's why I thought I needed another amp.

 

[Pogre]

Yea, I'm listening to 5 channel SACD's so wouldn't that be 5 channels driven? The music plays out of all the channels, and also movies in surround.

I have a 5 channel system from Salk on order currently. So after I get those, I will be set with speakers, so I'm seeing what would be the best amp to match with those speakers.

Any good quality receiver will sound just as good as any good quality amp, all things being equal and operated within tolerances. Some receivers may sound different from others but that's in the rc software. If they're built correctly they should sound the same in a pure direct mode.

You need to double your power to gain 3 dB. If you're getting say, 90 dB at your listening position with 100 watts you will need 200 to get to 93 dB. That is noticeable, but just. The difference between 130 and 150 watts isn't even audible.

With SACD's and 5.1 in movies the bulk of the information is still going to the front stage. Surround speakers are there for effect, they're not all playing at equal volume all at once. I don't know of anything recorded like that unless you wanna play sine waves in 5 ch stereo or something, lol.

That being said, if you want to get an amp for power concerns, get an amp. If it were me I'd be setting my sights a little higher so it would be at least a somewhat significant upgrade. Something like a Monolith 5.