Will This Be an Improvement

[ParadiseSound]

I really want to improve my sound system but only if it really will be an improvement and not just to satisfy the “upgrade itch”. What I have now is a definite improvement over just the tv speakers but on paper is rather inadequate for my room size of 18x25 with 17’ ceilings. And what I have is: Sony 55” Xbr900f tv, rp150m L/R, RP500C, BS22 rear surround, klipsch 10” sub and pioneer lx103 AVR. So far what I plan on is replacing front 2 speakers, AVR and sub with rp600 for front 2, pioneer lx 503 to replace lx103 and a 15” hsu Sub to replace the very inadequate klipsch 10”. I have no doubt the sub replacement is required but I’m not sure about the front speakers and the AVR.
My listening is about 9’ in front of tv. Pic is attached if I am successful with that. I only watch directv or movies, mostly Netflix (thru apple4ktv) and am in a rural area so 8mbps is as high speed as I can get. I see online that everyone loves the Denon Reciever but I only have experience with pioneer and the pioneer is compatible with my Sony tv, Apple TV and directv and that compatibility is important. But if someone uses a Denon with what I have and is compatible, please advise on that. My budget will handle anything I have mentioned so far. I am not interested in tower speakers and the current front speakers I have now are on a bookcase shelf (center is on a stand) and the planned replacement fronts will go on the same bookcase shelf. Shelves can be adjusted for speaker size. Oh, and I do not listen loud just adequate for movies. Any advise anyone wants to give would be very much appreciated.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

First thing i would do is call the major subwoofer companies (Hsu , svs , rythmik ect.) and get their recommendations for how much sub that room needs for how you use your system. Your room is huge.

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[STRONGBADF1]

...and yes. I'm sure the sub will be a major improvement. As far as the rest. That would depend of if you are running into the limitations of the speakers or avr.

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[KEW]

Yeah, your sub is the obvious weak link if you are looking for a proper HT experience!
Replace it first and re-assess your system.

Going from RP-150m to RP-600m will primarily give you more SPL before you are taxing the speakers. The RP 600 will be a little less bright, but IMHO, the RP-150 was the first Klipsch (at mainstream price-points) that was no longer overly bright, so I would be good with either. However, if you do find the 150's a little too bright, the 600 will improve on that count!
I will say more on that because it is a constant issue of concern (as earned by Klipsch's past horns). I have the earlier RF-82ii's and to my ear, they are a bit too bright if pointed straight at me, but by toeing them, I can get a good sound from them. The RP-280 and the RP-8000 (and their respective series) resolved that for me. I can point either of the newer series straight at me and not feel assaulted (assuming a quality recording)! So these past 3 generations have each had incremental improvement in taming the treble. I bought the 82's because they were such an improvement on earlier Klipsch that I was comfortable with their horns (I knew I would not have them pointed directly at me). Now I wish I had waited for the RP-280 and don't know if I would prefer it or the 8000.

Why change your AVR? Is it features? I don't think you current AVR is being over-taxed by the Klipsch - they are easy to power! Unless there is a feature you seriously need, Swap out the sub first, evaluate, then the fronts, then evaluate what you have left. Ideally it would be good to put the AVR money into the sub. Good subs are not cheap, as you have likely seen!

 

[ParadiseSound]

thanks everyone! I am going to start with one HSU 15” sub and then see if I am happy with it before adding another. As far as the rp150, they are ok, I just think the larger rp600 would be better. I will probably move the rp150 to the rear surrounds. I am very happy with the lx103, I just thought with the larger rp600 speakers would be too much for the lx103 to handle all of the 5.1 setup.

 

[ParadiseSound]

I was really hoping someone would tell me why (maybe just their opinion) a Denon receiver would be better than a Pioneer. And also if and why the rp600 speakers for the front might be better. And this is regardless of whether something totally different might be better for this large room. I am the WAF so not interested in tower speakers.

 

[KenM10759]

The receivers from Denon-Marantz do seem to have a better track record for reliability, and they use Audyssey for room calibration rather than Pioneer's unique MCACC. The Audyssey can be easier to use yet more effective. Lower level MCACC has some limiting factors that the Audyssey doesn't restrict.

One of the biggest limiting factors you are dealing with is that behemoth "entertainment center" piece of furniture. Your room would feel more open by eliminating that and replacing with open wall-mounted shelves, and allow mounting the TV on the wall. Having to stick box-like speakers in another box is never ideal for good audio.

By doing this and putting your bookshelf speakers on stands, you would enjoy a much more flexible set-up that also sounds better.

I have no opinions on Klipsch speakers that would be of any benefit to you.

 

[sven1olaf]

Ken is on to something. The built in is limiting. Beautiful, but limiting. I have a similar, though even less ideal, built in I'm dealing with and I just pulled all my speakers out of it to fantastic success. Now they are all on stands in front of the built in. This allows for a lot more breathing room for the speakers and minimizes and acoustic coupling that may occur in the built in.

Do a quick little experiment and pull you speakers out of the bookshelf, get them to their appropriate height/width/toe and see if it opens up the sound stage. With this result, now you have a better idea of what you're working with.

From there I agree that a sub upgrade is first. Please consider going with slightly smaller subs as a pair rather than a single monster. Most companies (hsu, svs, rythmic) have very compelling offerings just below their "flagship" models. For example, I was set that I need SVS sb ultra, but was guided to looking at a dual sb-3000 setup that is fantastic.

You room is large so that will play into the equation. Give the guys at SVS a call and run your room by them. They are super helpful!

Good luck, and I'm looking forward to seeing what your next step is.

PS. I switched from pioneer to Marantz for AVR years ago and have not looked back for any reason.

 

[ryanosaur]

Indeed, I agree, speakers don’t belong in cubbies. “Bookshelf” is such a grossly inappropriate name for a speaker.

I was originally planning my system for a room larger than yours at >8000’3. Those Hsus will be good Subs, but you will want at least two. Even when I was inquiring at SVS, they vacillated between recommending 2 or 3 PB4000 for me. I chose 2 Outlaw for aesthetics and because I really wanted down-firing. For that great room, they too recommended 2-3. (I ended up in a 2000’3 room, instead.)

I’d recommend getting stands for your mains, and if you do upgrade your speakers at some point, I would recommend something a little more matched to your room size. Even if it’s still a standmount.

 

[KenM10759]

Perhaps the two tall units could be moved to another area of the room, where they would become good acoustic reflection dampers. The middle unit stays and holds the TV and center speaker. Then there would be room for elegant stands and speakers would be in open space.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I was really hoping someone would tell me why (maybe just their opinion) a Denon receiver would be better than a Pioneer. And also if and why the rp600 speakers for the front might be better. And this is regardless of whether something totally different might be better for this large room. I am the WAF so not interested in tower speakers.

The big things will be Audyssey vs mcacc, and then ease of use/ergonomics/menu structure.
In a purely anecdotal story, I had a 125x7ch pioneer in my system for a while. I liked what mcacc did as the system sounded pretty darn good. Then I switched it for a 135x7 onkyo with audyssey. In general audyssey always seemed flatter and less colored(warm) to me. What really surprised me the most was that the pioneer seemed to run out of power when pushed hard, while the Onkyo just never seemed to statin no matter what volume levels I was at. The 10 watt difference should be negligible so I can’t say if that was a mcacc thing or what. The Onkyo also weighed about 10lbs more, and I always attributed that to the difference as the Onkyos power supply was probably able to keep up more than the pioneer. Fwiw, I still use the pio in my bedroom and I don’t drive it hard so it doesn’t matter. It it does run hotter than hell.

Can’t offer much on the speakers. Don’t like bookshelf speakers and haven’t experienced the klipsch in question.

 

[PENG]

What really surprised me the most was that the pioneer seemed to run out of power when pushed hard, while the Onkyo just never seemed to statin no matter what volume levels I was at. The 10 watt difference should be negligible so I can’t say if that was a mcacc thing or what. The Onkyo also weighed about 10lbs more, and I always attributed that to the difference as the Onkyos power supply was probably able to keep up more than the pioneer. Fwiw, I still use the pio in my bedroom and I don’t drive it hard so it doesn’t matter. It it does run hotter than hell.

That is surprising for sure, sort of defy science. There has to be a more logical explanation for the difference felt, but I guess we'll never find out now..

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

That is surprising for sure, sort of defy science. There has to be a more logical explanation for the difference felt, but I guess we'll never find out now..

Agreed. I wish at the time I would have taken a more scientifical approach and looked deeper. On a lot of material it didn’t matter, but things with higher dynamic range and output would start to sound flat as I increased the volume. This was most obvious with music. One if my example pieces is a concert video of your fellow countrymen, Rush “R30”. It’s a great disk with excellent sound and dynamics. With both AVR’s, at the -20 to -15 range sound was full, solid and clear. But when the volume went past there, the pioneer started to struggle to maintain while the Onkyo kept strong and clean with all the power and punch all the way to -0. Decided to keep MV at -7 for most of the show however. I had a friend here for 3 viewings with both receivers. Mcacc and audyssey were run first. We both shared the the same thoughts. I always wondered if it was something with mcacc. I have a 105wpc Yamaha that I thought of experimenting with lol.

 

[PENG]

Agreed. I wish at the time I would have taken a more scientifical approach and looked deeper. On a lot of material it didn’t matter, but things with higher dynamic range and output would start to sound flat as I increased the volume. This was most obvious with music. One if my example pieces is a concert video of your fellow countrymen, Rush “R30”. It’s a great disk with excellent sound and dynamics. With both AVR’s, at the -20 to -15 range sound was full, solid and clear. But when the volume went past there, the pioneer started to struggle to maintain while the Onkyo kept strong and clean with all the power and punch all the way to -0. Decided to keep MV at -7 for most of the show however. I had a friend here for 3 viewings with both receivers. Mcacc and audyssey were run first. We both shared the the same thoughts. I always wondered if it was something with mcacc. I have a 105wpc Yamaha that I thought of experimenting with lol.

Just thought of something, was yours class D? The earlier Pioneer class D apparently weren't great but I thought they addressed those issues on the newer models.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Just thought of something, was yours class D? The earlier Pioneer class D apparently weren't great but I thought they addressed those issues on the newer models.

It is a little older. It’s a 1019ahk. Can’t remember it’s age lol. I remember at the time it received a lot of praise(yeah I know lol) in general. I do like it overall, but it just runs outta gas...

 

[lovinthehd]

It is a little older. It’s a 1019ahk. Can’t remember it’s age lol. I remember at the time it received a lot of praise(yeah I know lol) in general. I do like it overall, but it just runs outta gas...

Think that's around 2009....bought a 919 in early 2010 (and it died a little after two years later). My brother had a 1019 that also failed. Not class D, tho.

 

[ParadiseSound]

I have not replied back since I was really resisting the 2 bookshelf cabinets not being the ideal for housing speakers. Like I said, I am the wife and decorated the room and like the balanced look. But I also like movies with good sound. Soooo, I am thinking of moving the 2 cabinets to different walls, leaving the center console to hold the tv, raising that tv up on top (definitely not hanging it on the wall) but raising the tv will allow the center speaker to be moved in front of the tv. Annnnd getting floorstanding rp8000 speakers. Then how does that effect what I might want for a sub. Also would my lx103 Pioneer still drive a 5.1 setup with those rp8000, RP500C, rp150 surrounds and whatever sub.

 

[PENG]

It is a little older. It’s a 1019ahk. Can’t remember it’s age lol. I remember at the time it received a lot of praise(yeah I know lol) in general. I do like it overall, but it just runs outta gas...

This could be a good example to show why people should avoid the "all amps sound the same" kind of blanket statements, as for it to be true or true to some extents, it would require some qualifications, such as used far below its limit...etc..

The VSX-1019AHK appears to have a very small power supply, and probably a chip amp (not necessarily bad). If you use it with truly 8 ohm nominal, or minimum better still and 90 dB/2.83V/1m speakers and distance of less than 10 ft you may be fine with volume at -15 listening to two channel music, otherwise I can see how it could fall apart on you depending on your speakers characteristics and seating distance.

Take a look of the lab measurements.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1019ah-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

It did indicate it could do 134 W into 4 ohms at 0.1% THD, but that's two channel, 1 kHz. THD may ramp up rapidly at dips of below 4 ohms at some frequencies in the mid bass range at higher volume.

 

[2channel lover]

thanks everyone! I am going to start with one HSU 15” sub and then see if I am happy with it before adding another. As far as the rp150, they are ok, I just think the larger rp600 would be better. I will probably move the rp150 to the rear surrounds. I am very happy with the lx103, I just thought with the larger rp600 speakers would be too much for the lx103 to handle all of the 5.1 setup.

That's not a bad move...the additional sub is not really for added bass depth or volume. When that boom or sound effect happens in a movie, ideally you want every seat in the HT space to experience it the same. You can get that if you can find the perfect location for a large powerful single sub, but it's much easier with more than one.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

This could be a good example to show why people should avoid the "all amps sound the same" kind of blanket statements, as for it to be true or true to some extents, it would require some qualifications, such as used far below its limit...etc..

The VSX-1019AHK appears to have a very small power supply, and probably a chip amp (not necessarily bad). If you use it with truly 8 ohm nominal, or minimum better still and 90 dB/2.83V/1m speakers and distance of less than 10 ft you may be fine with volume at -15 listening to two channel music, otherwise I can see how it could fall apart on you depending on your speakers characteristics and seating distance.

Take a look of the lab measurements.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/pioneer-vsx-1019ah-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

It did indicate it could do 134 W into 4 ohms at 0.1% THD, but that's two channel, 1 kHz. THD may ramp up rapidly at dips of below 4 ohms at some frequencies in the mid bass range at higher volume.

Very interesting peng, thanks for that. You mentioned the smaller power supply. This is one of the things that I figured was a large contributor to my experience as the weight difference was about ten to 15 pounds. My mains are 92db and distance is just under 15’. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/79330/Jbl-Studio-S312.html rates them at 8ohm but I have no idea what they might dip to. The S/V 5ch measurement of the 1019 is abysmal, but in my bedroom the distance is about 11’ and use Yamaha bookshelf speakers at moderate volumes. It works very nicely.
Iirc, HT magazine measured the Onkyo 808(rated 135x7) I used to put out 115x7, and something crazy like 220x2. Aside from its THX certification, the output measurements were what sealed the deal for me when I bought it.
This is moot since I started using the Yamaha P series amp to drive my mains but I appreciate the academics. Thank you.